Ranged, STR Adds Damage

[Super Squirrel]

At somepoint along the line Hero Designer decided to notify me that HtH attacks can't be build Ranged. I was using this to create the effect of a blunt tipped arrow within a 60 point Multipower. Because the arrow is also AP to simulate its ability to hit the weak points in an enemies defense it is 10 points per die.

 

The power was 6d6 with STR making it a 12d6 Attack.

 

The problem is that if Ranged is illegal on a HtH attack, I can't find a way to rebuild this power maintaining the Damage Class, Armor Piercing, and not break the 60 point limit in the Multipower.

 

Any advice on how I can rebuild this power?

[MitchellS]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

A couple of choices:

 

Buy the attack as a 12d6 energy blast in the multipower, then purchase the armor piercing as a naked advantage outside of the multipower, link it to the energy blast, and give it a requires a bow tricks limitation roll, and OAF bow. That would cut the cost to about 10 points. Not great, but legal.

 

You could also buy the multipower as an 8d6 ap arrow, and then buy +4d6 ap outside of the multipower with the same advantages as above.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

At somepoint along the line Hero Designer decided to notify me that HtH attacks can't be build Ranged.

Yeah, I think that is pretty lame. I believe the problem is that Strength and HA combine backwards, so you could buy a really tiny HA and suddenly be able to use a huge amount of Strength at range. I don't think this would be an issue if: 1.) Strength added to HAs was pro-rated (Advantages on the HAs increased the amount of Str needed for a +1 DC), and 2.) HAs in general had the same double-DC limitation of HKAs (they do anyway in heroic games!).

 

For those who want to keep HA the way it is in 5th ed., maybe it would be better just to have another Advantage that can be applied to EBs: Strength Adds to Damage (not sure of cost: +1/2 according to the normal costs of HKA/RKA, but probably higher since additional Advantages won't blow up this cost, so maybe +1?). I don't know.

 

I was using this to create the effect of a blunt tipped arrow within a 60 point Multipower. Because the arrow is also AP to simulate its ability to hit the weak points in an enemies defense it is 10 points per die.

 

The power was 6d6 with STR making it a 12d6 Attack.

 

The problem is that if Ranged is illegal on a HtH attack, I can't find a way to rebuild this power maintaining the Damage Class, Armor Piercing, and not break the 60 point limit in the Multipower.

 

Any advice on how I can rebuild this power?

I just don't think that power fits in the 60-point Multipower. It sounds like you just want free AP. Expecting to get a 12d6 AP attack at range for the same cost as a normal 12d6 EB is pushing it. A lot!!! I would say make it a 8d6 EB with AP. EB works better for bows anyway IMHO, with Strength Mins in heroic games (it takes a certain Strength to draw a bow, but applying more Strength after that really isn't going to add anything); Ranged HAs/Str-enhanced EBs should be for thrown weapons.

 

EDIT: If you want a way of simulating the, "cost" of using Strength to increase the damage of the attack, buy portions of it with Increased End Cost.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

A couple of choices:

 

Buy the attack as a 12d6 energy blast in the multipower, then purchase the armor piercing as a naked advantage outside of the multipower, link it to the energy blast, and give it a requires a bow tricks limitation roll, and OAF bow. That would cut the cost to about 10 points. Not great, but legal.

 

You could also buy the multipower as an 8d6 ap arrow, and then buy +4d6 ap outside of the multipower with the same advantages as above.

Ouch! Legal only with specific GM permission. As a GM, I wouldn't allow it! Both ways of putting an overpowered attack in a Multipower just to save points on it. Yuck! I definitely wouldn't allow Linked, unless you want two damage rolls: one at 8d6 and one at 4d6.

[Fox1]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

So, you can't buy Ranged on HA...

 

How does HERO buy all those throwable weapons in their list that allow you to add STR damage to them?

[MitchellS]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

If you're talking about buying the +4d6 outside of the multipower the attack is legal. You can buy additional powers outside of a multipower slot which add to the primary attack. The linked is a GM's call.

 

If you're talking about the naked power advantage that is also legal. As a matter of fact he can purchase one naked power advantage which can be used on every slot of a multipower. Thus the need for the linked limitation.

[MitchellS]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

So, you can't buy Ranged on HA...

 

How does HERO buy all those throwable weapons in their list that allow you to add STR damage to them?

You buy them in a multipower, as per the Nighthawk and Utility examples.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

So, you can't buy Ranged on HA...

 

How does HERO buy all those throwable weapons in their list that allow you to add STR damage to them?

Ranged applied to Hand Killing Attack rather than Hand Attack. If you'll take another look, you won't see any normal attacks on that list (at least in 5E; not sure about 5ER). You can do it with a Killing Attack, but not with a Normal Attack? According to the FAQs, that is correct. Lame!!!!

[Fox1]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

Ranged applied to Hand Killing Attack rather than Hand Attack. If you'll take another look' date=' you won't see any normal attacks on that list (at least in 5E; not sure about 5ER). You can do it with a Killing Attack, but not with a Normal Attack? According to the FAQs, that is correct. Lame!!!![/quote']

 

So no throw clubs huh...

 

Checking...

 

Rings (used as bludgeoning weapons or missiles), UMA on page 172, 181.

 

Sai, UMA page 172

 

Wind and Fire Wheels, Traditional, UMA page 172

 

 

All Normal Damage weapons with Thr in Notes.

 

Stopped looking with just that page.

[MitchellS]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

So no throw clubs huh...

 

Checking...

 

Rings (used as bludgeoning weapons or missiles), UMA on page 172, 181.

 

Sai, UMA page 172

 

Wind and Fire Wheels, Traditional, UMA page 172

 

 

All Normal Damage weapons with Thr in Notes.

 

Stopped looking with just that page.

Weapons in heroic games are not purchased as HKA/RKA or HTH attacks. They are purchased as a generic killing attack or normal attack [which does not give the normal -1/2 limitation HTH attack gives]. If you look at the example of the small club in 5E/5Er you can see how it's built:

 

3d6 normal damage [15], 0 end: +1/2 for 22 active points.

OAF: -1, STR Min: -1, Real Weapon: -1/4 Total Cost: 7 points.

 

The rules also state that weapons which can be thrown should take the +1/4 range based on strength limitation.

[Fox1]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

Weapons in heroic games are not purchased as HKA/RKA or HTH attacks. They are purchased as a generic killing attack or normal attack [which does not give the normal -1/2 limitation HTH attack gives]. If you look at the example of the small club in 5E/5Er you can see how it's built:

 

3d6 normal damage [15], 0 end: +1/2 for 22 active points.

OAF: -1, STR Min: -1, Real Weapon: -1/4 Total Cost: 7 points.

 

The rules also state that weapons which can be thrown should take the +1/4 range based on strength limitation.

 

So one should be able to buy a throwable weapon for a base of 5 points plus the 1/4 limit and then get to add strength.

 

So why the question at the top of the thread? Or is this just a limit of HERO Designer? Or are you saying that while Heroic characters have access to this build, Superheroic ones don't?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

At somepoint along the line Hero Designer decided to notify me that HtH attacks can't be build Ranged. I was using this to create the effect of a blunt tipped arrow within a 60 point Multipower. Because the arrow is also AP to simulate its ability to hit the weak points in an enemies defense it is 10 points per die.

 

So this is a bow built specifically to take advantage of the "puller's" Strength to add more velocity to the arrow? (well, thats basically how the work, to a degree)

 

 

The problem is that if Ranged is illegal on a HtH attack, I can't find a way to rebuild this power maintaining the Damage Class, Armor Piercing, and not break the 60 point limit in the Multipower.

 

Any advice on how I can rebuild this power?

 

Thats the problem; Adding Ranged to Hand to Hand attacks (be it Hand attack or Hand Killing Attack) is not illegal. Steve Long has specifically mentioned that Ranged HA or HKA is how one builds such things as Throwing Knives and Spears and whatnot.

 

What is illegal to use with the Ranged advantage is STR...because Ranged STR is simulated via the Telekinesis power (Its costed exactly the same as STR bought Ranged).

 

I often build Sonic Blade type abilities often seen in Videogame martial artist (and RPG characters like Cloud's Blade Beam from FF7) as Ranged HKA or HA. It works perfectly fine. This is simply a failing of the Hero Designer program...something that needs be fixed in future updates.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

Ranged applied to Hand Killing Attack rather than Hand Attack. If you'll take another look' date=' you won't see any normal attacks on that list (at least in 5E; not sure about 5ER). You can do it with a Killing Attack, but not with a Normal Attack? According to the FAQs, that is correct. Lame!!!![/quote']

 

Agreed very lame and consequently, ignored by myself.

 

I guess they don't have a boomerang listed in the Thrown Weapons chart...

 

Unfortunately, the 5E doesn't go into very much detail on this subject...in the Melee Weapons chart, they simply have the weapons statted with a note saying "Can be thrown" with no explaination on what advantages or limitations are needed for this mechanic. I think The Ultimate Martial Artist handles this better, with the Ranged advantage being added to thrown weapons, but my copy is currently on loan to someone. Does anyone here have Fantasy Hero? It should be in there. (I don't have a copy yet)

[MitchellS]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

Agreed very lame and consequently, ignored by myself.

 

I guess they don't have a boomerang listed in the Thrown Weapons chart...

 

Unfortunately, the 5E doesn't go into very much detail on this subject...in the Melee Weapons chart, they simply have the weapons statted with a note saying "Can be thrown" with no explaination on what advantages or limitations are needed for this mechanic. I think The Ultimate Martial Artist handles this better, with the Ranged advantage being added to thrown weapons, but my copy is currently on loan to someone. Does anyone here have Fantasy Hero? It should be in there. (I don't have a copy yet)

The description is on page 480 of 5Er. As I said above, it's a +1/4 advantage.

[MitchellS]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

So one should be able to buy a throwable weapon for a base of 5 points plus the 1/4 limit and then get to add strength.

 

So why the question at the top of the thread? Or is this just a limit of HERO Designer? Or are you saying that while Heroic characters have access to this build, Superheroic ones don't?

It's an advantage, not a limitation.

 

The problem itself would seem to be a Hero Designer issue in that HTH attack is not the correct power to build the effect.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

The description is on page 480 of 5Er. As I said above' date=' it's a +1/4 advantage.[/quote']

 

Ah. Again, I don't have revised. Perhaps I should aquire a copy, but I feel loathe to purchase one as FREd is working just fine for me.

[MitchellS]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

It should also be pointed out that Heroic level rules are slightly different than Superheroic level. In a superhero game you'd purchase the two attacks in a multipower. In a heroic level game you'd use the generic build due to things like STR Min, which automatically put limitations on the degree of damage which can be done.

[MitchellS]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

Ah. Again' date=' I don't have revised. Perhaps I should aquire a copy, but I feel loathe to purchase one as FREd is working just fine for me.[/quote']

5E and 5Er have differences in regards to this. 5E just says to buy ranged on the generic power [page 329]. 5Er changed the rule to range based on strength [page 480].

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

5E and 5Er have differences in regards to this. 5E just says to buy ranged on the generic power [page 329]. 5Er changed the rule to range based on strength [page 480].

 

Ah, thank you.

 

I was inclined to use the "Range based on STR" advantage for thrown weapons anyway.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

Can I respectfully suggest that you're thinking about it wrong?

 

I mean if you could buy HA with range, the power would cost (active points wise) 30 points for 6d6 +1/2 for ranged and +1/2 for AP): 60 active points, which you could fit into your multipower.

 

Adding 30 STR on top of that would make it (in effect) a 90 active point power.

 

Build it with the semi-analagous HKA with range the cost would be even higher: 2d6HKA is 30 active points, then add in the +1/2 for ranged and +1/2 for AP and the cost is 60 active points. You'd need to add 60 strength to make that one work as a 12DC AP attack, a 120 active point attack.

 

The muscle powered weapons in the book do njot have the ranged advantage or the adds strength damage advantage, so work off an attack that is ranged as a base and bring in strength as a strength minimum - not an add to damage (although as they are all killing attacks you COULD build them differently to allow added damage for excess strength - but you'd have to pro-rate the strength).

 

My solution for the multipower is to buy 8d6 EB AP, which seems fairer if your campaign uses AP or DC limits. Moreover it reflects an element of pro-rating of the added strength, which also seems realistic. Don't try and make sense of HA: it is a bodge because STR is so cheap and it can only be used in the specific situations outlined. We are not looking at logic here, but overall effect, and for overall effect, an armour piercing ranged attack in a 60 point multipower shouldn't exceed 8DC.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

I think what I'm going to do (it is my wife's character for a game I GM) is rebuild the entire multipower. I'll give a Strength Minimum to the entire Multipower that way should the Greek be drained of STR she will be forced onto other weapons. This will save a lot of points on the build that I can use to buy the AP, Naked Power Advantage. I'll even see about doing a Reduce Endurance Naked Power instead of the END Reserve Alice was interested in.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

Ah, Hero Judo: very sensible:)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

Okay. I figured this merited a little research. First, from the (old 5E) FAQ:

 

Q: Can a character apply the Ranged Advantage to an HA, thus creating an attack usable at Range to which he can add his STR?

 

 

A: No. Once he adds the Hand-To-Hand Attack Limitation, he’s signifying that the attack can’t be used at Range. Logically, the two Modifiers simply don’t mix.

 

To build such an attack, buy Energy Blast, with dice equal to the amount of damage you think the thrown weapon should do, and define the special effect as “throwing a weapon and using high STR to make it do more damage than it ordinarily would.†If you want to use the weapon in HTH Combat as well, buy the weapon as a Multipower — one slot with an HA, one slot with an EB, 1 Recoverable Charge, Lockout (can’t use other slot until Charge is recovered).

 

Another possibility would be to use the Throwing rules. Buy the club (or other weapon) has an HA, Focus. The character could then throw the object (the Focus) the same way he could any other object, doing damage equal to his STR dice or the DEF+BODY of the object, whichever was less.

 

One exception to this general rule are throwable HTH weapons in books like Fantasy Hero.

Next, we have several entries from the Rules Questions board:

• One answer denying the legality of a build based on HA being bought as Ranged.
  
• An answer stating that there are exceptions for weapons, and a follow-up.
  
• A theoretical question about why Ranged can't be bought for HA, and a follow-up.

That last seems to indicate there are other ways of doing the, "same thing." I suppose this is a reference to the FAQ answer, where you either buy it as an EB (obviously not the same thing), or effectively gain the Range Based on Strength Advantage for free by using the Focus Limitation.

 

Does this just feel wrong to people? Exceptions, exceptions, exceptions! It sure gives me the creepies. Weapons are not Powers, I guess. They are weapons. Should we have Characteristics, Skills, Perks, Talents, Powers, Disadvantages, and Weapons? Can we buy Ranged for an HA provided it has a Focus?

 

Actually, the very beginning of the FAQ answer may imply that you can apply the Ranged Advantage to a HA provided you don't apply the HA Limitation, although I'm not entirely sure of this, since I believe the Limitation is mandatory.

[Fox1]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

Does this just feel wrong to people? Exceptions' date=' exceptions, exceptions! It sure gives me the creepies. Weapons are not Powers, I guess. They are weapons. Should we have Characteristics, Skills, Perks, Talents, Powers, Disadvantages, and [i']Weapons[/i]? Can we buy Ranged for an HA provided it has a Focus?

 

Works for me.

 

But yes, it isn't 'clean'.

[casualplayer]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

A way I have done archers and bows in HERO is buy the bow as a MP with two slots: + blah STR Only for throwing arrows and a HA slot for when it's used as a club. Then I buy the arrow MP slots as Range Based on STR. What's an arrow weigh? A kg, maybe. At +50-60 STR on a balanced, aerodynamic object you get a pretty decent range. This might let you get around the HA stoppage. It also means the character can lose the bow focus and not be entirely handicapped (can still stab and throw by hand.)

 

However HA is already bah-roken, and there is no way I would let a player use it at range.