Ranged, STR Adds Damage

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

A way I have done archers and bows in HERO is buy the bow as a MP with two slots: + blah STR Only for throwing arrows and a HA slot for when it's used as a club. Then I buy the arrow MP slots as Range Based on STR. What's an arrow weigh? A kg, maybe. At +50-60 STR on a balanced, aerodynamic object you get a pretty decent range. This might let you get around the HA stoppage. It also means the character can lose the bow focus and not be entirely handicapped (can still stab and throw by hand.)

 

However HA is already bah-roken, and there is no way I would let a player use it at range.

 

The funny thing is that they RECCOMEND this style of build as the "realistic" way to write up muscle powered ranged weapons. Just as long as they don't do normal damage, I guess.

LOL

I really don't see a good way under the current ruleset to get around this.

[Silbeg]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

A way I have done archers and bows in HERO is buy the bow as a MP with two slots: + blah STR Only for throwing arrows and a HA slot for when it's used as a club. Then I buy the arrow MP slots as Range Based on STR. What's an arrow weigh? A kg, maybe. At +50-60 STR on a balanced, aerodynamic object you get a pretty decent range. This might let you get around the HA stoppage. It also means the character can lose the bow focus and not be entirely handicapped (can still stab and throw by hand.)

 

However HA is already bah-roken, and there is no way I would let a player use it at range.

 

Definately agreed... in many ways.

 

As for FAQ suggestions, remember that a +3d6 HA club as DEF + BODY = 4, if I am not mistaken. (Isn't DEF BODY/5, and BODY of a focus = 1?)

 

If a person with 15 STR uses the club in HtH, he will get 6d6. If he throws the same club, he could get 4d6 (max), with range limited by his STR.

 

This is just using the casual missile rules, such as from TUB. I don't think this is broken.

 

If you want the same club to get full damage, then...

 

13	Throwable Club: Multipower, 30-point reserve, (30 Active Points); all slots OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4)
1u	1) Thrown Club: EB 6d6 (30 Active Points); 1 Recoverable Charge (-1 1/4), Lockout (Cannot use other slots while thrown.; -1/2)	[1 rc]
1u	2) HA +3d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (22 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)	0

This is the MP version... Note that you can get more damage out of it (though both attacks are still 6DC - purposely limited that way in construction)

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

Okay.

Actually, the very beginning of the FAQ answer may imply that you can apply the Ranged Advantage to a HA provided you don't apply the HA Limitation, although I'm not entirely sure of this, since I believe the Limitation is mandatory.

 

Ah. You see there it is. I've always allowed the use of the Ranged advantage (and all its various incarnations) in conjunction with Hand Attack, but in general I don't support the use of the Hand Attack limitation. I find it to be silly. Sure that makes Hand Attack less efficient than more STR, but I really don't care about that, since I build all my characters to concept and not efficiency (not that I don't build efficient concepts, but if my character is only supposed to be as strong as "X", thats as high as I will buy. Additonal damage will be purchased via Hand Attack, even if it is "less efficient" than STR)

[Agent333]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

Okay, I get the whole "No range of any kind on HA" thing (I won't use it, but I get it). Now my question is this: I've got a brick who likes to pick up garbage cans, sewer lids, etc, to hurl at big-bad-guys. He's good at it, it's his schtick. According to the rules as it stands I could buy PS levels that offset the throwing mods on any object I throw, plus any object I throw can do damage equal or less than my STR (Depending on DEF+BODY). Very cool.

 

Now, one day my character gets the gumption to do more damage with objects he throws since the big-bad-guys are better defended these days. According to the rules I see only three answers to this; one is correct the other incorrect and the last MAY be correct.

 

Incorrect: HA +2D6; Range based on STR (+1/4); OIF any throwable object (-1/2), Hand Attack (-0)

 

This version adds what I had considered the base power for a sewer lid up till now. Whether I smacked you in the face with it or threw it at you, it's HA limited to maximum of DEF+BODY. This concept is based on the Deadly Shot talent found in DC.

 

Correct: EB 12D6; OIF throwable object (-1/2), Range based on STR (-1/4) Damage cannot exceed objects DEF+BODY+2 in DCs (-1/4?)

 

This seems to be what the rules want me to do. Doubtless I could add all sorts of limitations to it, but you get the idea. Upside is that I don't need those PSLs I bought earlier, so maybe the GM will allow me to use those point to buy this. However, the END cost has shifted for me since my STR (in true brick style) was 1/2 END. Now an object thrown costs me 6 END instead of 3, but no more throwing penalties (depending on object) and I gained the 2 DCs like I wanted. Or did I?

 

MAY work: Ranged Martial Art Maneuver that adds +2 DC to damage on thrown objects.

 

Further proof that if your GM allows this then Martial Arts is broken, YMMV. I have to say, if a martial artist cannot add damage to an improvised weapon using his MA, then I wonder just what an improvised object really IS, 'cause it's certainly wasn't built using HERO rules...

 

 

So, someone please set me straight on this whole "add damage to improvised weapon" thing.

 

If you can: HOW?

 

If not: WHY not?

[Agent X]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

Okay, I get the whole "No range of any kind on HA" thing (I won't use it, but I get it). Now my question is this: I've got a brick who likes to pick up garbage cans, sewer lids, etc, to hurl at big-bad-guys. He's good at it, it's his schtick. According to the rules as it stands I could buy PS levels that offset the throwing mods on any object I throw, plus any object I throw can do damage equal or less than my STR (Depending on DEF+BODY). Very cool.

 

Now, one day my character gets the gumption to do more damage with objects he throws since the big-bad-guys are better defended these days. According to the rules I see only three answers to this; one is correct the other incorrect and the last MAY be correct.

 

Incorrect: HA +2D6; Range based on STR (+1/4); OIF any throwable object (-1/2), Hand Attack (-0)

 

This version adds what I had considered the base power for a sewer lid up till now. Whether I smacked you in the face with it or threw it at you, it's HA limited to maximum of DEF+BODY. This concept is based on the Deadly Shot talent found in DC.

 

Correct: EB 12D6; OIF throwable object (-1/2), Range based on STR (-1/4) Damage cannot exceed objects DEF+BODY+2 in DCs (-1/4?)

 

This seems to be what the rules want me to do. Doubtless I could add all sorts of limitations to it, but you get the idea. Upside is that I don't need those PSLs I bought earlier, so maybe the GM will allow me to use those point to buy this. However, the END cost has shifted for me since my STR (in true brick style) was 1/2 END. Now an object thrown costs me 6 END instead of 3, but no more throwing penalties (depending on object) and I gained the 2 DCs like I wanted. Or did I?

 

MAY work: Ranged Martial Art Maneuver that adds +2 DC to damage on thrown objects.

 

Further proof that if your GM allows this then Martial Arts is broken, YMMV. I have to say, if a martial artist cannot add damage to an improvised weapon using his MA, then I wonder just what an improvised object really IS, 'cause it's certainly wasn't built using HERO rules...

 

 

So, someone please set me straight on this whole "add damage to improvised weapon" thing.

 

If you can: HOW?

 

If not: WHY not?

Buy 5 point or better skill levels. Trade 2 for 1 damage class. If you want skill levels only to add damage to improvised weapons you can apply a limitation.

[Agent X]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

Okay. I figured this merited a little research. First, from the (old 5E) FAQ:

 

 

Next, we have several entries from the Rules Questions board:

• One answer denying the legality of a build based on HA being bought as Ranged.
  
• An answer stating that there are exceptions for weapons, and a follow-up.
  
• A theoretical question about why Ranged can't be bought for HA, and a follow-up.

That last seems to indicate there are other ways of doing the, "same thing." I suppose this is a reference to the FAQ answer, where you either buy it as an EB (obviously not the same thing), or effectively gain the Range Based on Strength Advantage for free by using the Focus Limitation.

 

Does this just feel wrong to people? Exceptions, exceptions, exceptions! It sure gives me the creepies. Weapons are not Powers, I guess. They are weapons. Should we have Characteristics, Skills, Perks, Talents, Powers, Disadvantages, and Weapons? Can we buy Ranged for an HA provided it has a Focus?

 

Actually, the very beginning of the FAQ answer may imply that you can apply the Ranged Advantage to a HA provided you don't apply the HA Limitation, although I'm not entirely sure of this, since I believe the Limitation is mandatory.

What's wrong with throwing a focus like throwing anything else to do damage? Of course, there is that whole unbreakable focus thing...

 

Hmmm, maybe Captain America doesn't have to buy EB for his thrown shield after all, considering the skill levels he must have to bounce that sucker around.

[MitchellS]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

Buy 5 point or better skill levels. Trade 2 for 1 damage class. If you want skill levels only to add damage to improvised weapons you can apply a limitation.

That's assuming a heroic level game. In a superhero game 2 levels adds +3 stun to a normal attack or +1 body to a killing attack.

[Agent333]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

Buy 5 point or better skill levels. Trade 2 for 1 damage class. If you want skill levels only to add damage to improvised weapons you can apply a limitation.

 

With the possible exception of Martial Arts, wouldn't the skill levels still be limited to the DC of the objects DEF+BODY?

 

Also, MitchellS reminds us that Skill levels only add +3 stun for Supers. That actually would be fine by me and I'd likely use that for a character if CSLs can exceed an objects potential DCs. Still, that doesn't allow my character to truly add +2 DC to an improvised weapon (as per 5ER and FAQ).

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Ranged, STR Adds Damage

 

Forgive my blasphemy, but I just thought I'd point out that all these problems go away if STR costs 2 points and you get rid of the HA Limitation. So 5 points gets you 1d6, either at range, or that you can add STR to. And let everything work the same way.

 

Isn't that so much simpler than all the restrictive rules and arbitrary exceptions?