Susano Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? Yeah' date=' but those Range Modifiers are major whacked.[/quote'] *shrug* Blame the guys behind 4th then. But then, there were a lot of 3rd Edition pistols with -1/3" and rifles with -1/5" or -1/6", which in 4th/5th Edition came out to +0 to +2 versus RMod. And such crazy rules modifiers like Autofire and AOE halving said RMods. Although I do recall a GAC 1st Ed. machinegun with a -1/37" RMod (the MG-42?). I think the HERO RMods are meant to simulate cinematic action and ranges, not long range sniping and the like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? Blame the guys behind 4th then. They didn't give a +10 RMod for a reflex sight. Or ever better, a +8 Rmod for a laser on your pistol that means you can now hit targets at hundreds of yards far better than that guy with a mere rifle can I will say that I've always been mixed about the change in range mods that happened in 4th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? How about 5 points in general, and 8 only for the head (representing that huge skull of his)? Sounds fair. Or we could drop the resistent defenses entirely and simply go with resistent damage reduction... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? Sounds fair. Or we could drop the resistent defenses entirely and simply go with resistent damage reduction... Hmm. 11 body, 110 stun vs. 50% damage reduction and no resistant PD... Would end up being 11 body (impairing the head) and 55 stun. Would stun him, the follow up shot (aiming for the chest) would take him down. Heck, I'd be better set to do two chest shots (5 body, 44 stun each). It wouldn't be dying but my hit chance would be 14- on both shots and it would be down before it could cover the 60 yards. I think I like the resistant defenses better. It would be more useful for holding off the little stuff. Now the nightmare is for it to have both... and be a chameleon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? Hmm. 11 body, 110 stun vs. 50% damage reduction and no resistant PD... Would end up being 11 body (impairing the head) and 55 stun. Would stun him, the follow up shot (aiming for the chest) would take him down. Heck, I'd be better set to do two chest shots (5 body, 44 stun each). It wouldn't be dying but my hit chance would be 14- on both shots and it would be down before it could cover the 60 yards. I think I like the resistant defenses better. It would be more useful for holding off the little stuff. Now the nightmare is for it to have both... and be a chameleon. I've been following this with interest and amusement, thought I might chime in. When I used dinos in my JI campaign, I took the basic stock write ups, then tweaked them to reflect "target side" resistance to damage. 50% DR to reflect the massive bones, dermal muscle layer, and fat that would be associated with a critter that big (And to make them harder to STUN into oblivion). Depending on the dino (and Mr. Rex had this in spades, IIRC) I'd add sectional defences to represent things like the really thick skull. An idea I've used for this is to double up on the "activation" roll limits... One limit to reflect the sectional defences (limit by coverage) and then an activation roll, to reflect the varing thickness of the skull in different locations. Then add a custom limit... Activation roll decreases -1 fro each point attack roll is made by, or -1 for each skill level allocated to reduce activation. This is your deflection limitation. I made the extra armor with minimal Invisible power effects... unless you made an Int roll, with appropriate skill modifiers, it was not obvious if you actually penetrated the skull. So when Mr. Great White Hunter went after a T-Rex the first time with his H&H .600 nitro express, he plugged it in the head and left a big crater where he hit. it fell down. While the player sat there going "a crater... a crater? why did it leave a crater? Wait just a goldarned second..." other members of the expidition ran up to check it out and realized, as it woke up, that the crater was from the exit wound as the round deflected off the skull, leaving a barely unconscious t-rex with a bad headache to wake up in a few seconds. It was tense, it seemed "realistic" and it was horribly appropriate to the genre, and it let me kill off a veriety of the throwaway NPC's I had along for just such a purpose. This deflection model can be used to good effect in other places as well, such as armored vehicles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? Hmm. 11 body, 110 stun vs. 50% damage reduction and no resistant PD... Would end up being 11 body (impairing the head) and 55 stun. Would stun him, the follow up shot (aiming for the chest) would take him down. Heck, I'd be better set to do two chest shots (5 body, 44 stun each). It wouldn't be dying but my hit chance would be 14- on both shots and it would be down before it could cover the 60 yards. I think I like the resistant defenses better. It would be more useful for holding off the little stuff. Now the nightmare is for it to have both... and be a chameleon. But I should imagine that although it could pretty much ignore a man with a .380 pistol, 10 men with .380 SMG's would flay him. If he has 5rPD that can't happen. Of course, no model can be perfect, and the 5rPD does simulate well the T-Rex's huge size and the inconsquential nature of such minor attacks against it. Besides, it needs the extra points for Invisibility... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? But I should imagine that although it could pretty much ignore a man with a .380 pistol' date=' 10 men with .380 SMG's would flay him. If he has 5rPD that can't happen.[/quote'] Hmm... 10 MAC11 vs. T-Rex... My House Rules 10 Normals, Dex 10, WF: SMG, +1 Skill. MAC 11 2d6K, Armor Effect 2x. Same T-Rex I first put up except it's 8 rPD in the head and only 5 rPD elsewhere... No bonuses, no aimed shots, just spray and pray at a range of 4" About one in ten shots will do a point of body on average... OCV 3+1 or 4 vs. DCV of 1 gives a 14- to hit, so lets say they roll about average and get 2.5 hits each. That's about 3 body, most of it in 1 point injuries Stun would be... 3. Only that done by the body due to the total 40 PD the T-Rex has to toss against stun. Mr. Rex takes his turn and eats a gunner. This is looking sad, and it's not likely to get better. Bleeding may be hell to pay for later however. Steve Long Rules: Same basic 10 joes (except they have Dex 8). MAC 11 does 1d6 even but it has +1 OCV in HERO. The Rex is 2 points worse in DCV. So the hit rate would go up to 4 per, or 40 total, they do damage once in six. So about 6-7 body is done.... and about the same degree of stun give or take a little. Doesn't look good here either given the 35 body it has. More bleeding for later in this case. Besides, it needs the extra points for Invisibility... Yes indeed. And jumping. We should have a jumping T-Rex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? It was tense' date=' it seemed "realistic" and it was horribly appropriate to the genre, and it let me kill off a veriety of the [/quote'] I like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? Yeah' date=' but those Range Modifiers are major whacked.[/quote'] Just as matter of interest, what's "major whacked" about them? They're combat mod.s and match pretty well with real-life numbers. People always seem to compare them to range shooting, which has pretty much nothing at all to do with combat. Here's a quote from a recent assessment of Marines in combat in Iraq: "Almost all interviewed stated all firefight engagements conducted with small arms (5.56mm guns) occurred in the twenty to thirty (20-30) meter range. Shots over 100m were rare. The maximum range was less than 300m. Of those interviewed, most sniper shots were taken at distances well under 300m, only one greater than 300m (608m during the day). After talking to the leadership from various sniper platoons and individuals, there was not enough confidence in the optical gear (Simrad or AN/PVS-10) to take a night shot under the given conditions at ranges over 300m. Most Marines agreed they would “push†a max range of 200m only." Quote's from here: http://www.intel-dump.com/archives/archive_2003_06_01-2003_06_07.shtml But it matches every other figure I've seen so far and seems to hold true whether you're discussing urban or open area engagements, so it's not just a visibility thing. So Snipers are maxing at 200 M (100" in Hero terms) and Riflemen at say 30-50 M (to be fair) That's about 15-25". Sounds about right to me. Cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? So Snipers are maxing at 200 M (100" in Hero terms) and Riflemen at say 30-50 M (to be fair) That's about 15-25". Sounds about right to me. Cheers, Mark Well, that's not the problem. The problem is that in DC, the range modifers for rather simple devices (like the reflex site and laser pointer) are through the roof allowing people to fire without modifier at targets hundreds of yards away using handguns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? And jumping. We should have a jumping T-Rex. Okay, we have to revise our hunting strategies to account for an invisible jumping T-Rex. My new plan: leave the continent, buy an old missile silo, hide. So what would an invisible jumping T-Rex/Alien hybrid be like... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? Okay, we have to revise our hunting strategies to account for an invisible jumping T-Rex. My new plan: leave the continent, buy an old missile silo, hide. So what would an invisible jumping T-Rex/Alien hybrid be like... Remember the old model for Aliens, that had them taking half their DNA from the hosts? Leading to some neat action figures? Aliens from t-rex hosts.... woof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? Remember the old model for Aliens, that had them taking half their DNA from the hosts? Leading to some neat action figures? Aliens from t-rex hosts.... woof But it would have such tiny little arms... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susano Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? But it would have such tiny little arms... That's why the jaws extend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? But it would have such tiny little arms... Yeah.... but think of a t-rex sized extensible tounge with its own set of subjaws and acidic spittle... And I sure as hell wouldn't want to be spraying one with a MAC-11... the whole bloomin' landscape would melt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? Yeah.... but think of a t-rex sized extensible tounge with its own set of subjaws and acidic spittle... And I sure as hell wouldn't want to be spraying one with a MAC-11... the whole bloomin' landscape would melt Dang guys. I was feeling good standing there for a photo on the head of the T-Rex I bagged and now look what happened.... This... is a turn for the worst. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? Dang guys. I was feeling good standing there for a photo on the head of the T-Rex I bagged and now look what happened.... This... is a turn for the worst. Still got that Bradley with the 25mm Bushmaster? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox1 Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? Still got that Bradley with the 25mm Bushmaster? yeah... But at this rate I'll want to use the TOW at 3000m Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? yeah... But at this rate I'll want to use the TOW at 3000m Relax, if we get into too much trouble Tank Boy will save us... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? Geez, an Alien infestation in the Cretaceous would make the Chtorran ecosystem look like a good thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? Geez' date=' an Alien infestation in the Cretaceous would make the Chtorran ecosystem look like a good thing...[/quote'] That is looking like a hell of an idea for a "Fix the past to save the future" time travel adventure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? That is looking like a hell of an idea for a "Fix the past to save the future" time travel adventure... Or a "Nuke them all from orbit, and that's how the dinosaurs died out" one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman Posted May 2, 2005 Report Share Posted May 2, 2005 Re: Why does the USS Iowa only have a 10 Defense? edited for lack of sleep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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