STR minimum question

[khagler]

I'm relatively new to the Hero system, and as I slowly plow through the main rulebook I decided to model myself as a character, to get acquainted with character generation and Hero Designer. While doing so, I realized that the STR minimums for various weapons are _much_ too high.

 

For example, the STR minimums given in Dark Champions for the Colt Detective Special, M1911, and CZ-75 are all 9. My STR would be 5--that's the easiest characteristic to determine, thanks to the handy chart of lifting capabilities. However, I know from considerable personal experience that I have no trouble using any of those pistols in either hand, or in a two-handed grip. (Also, the Detective Special is maybe half the size of the other two.)

 

The same thing shows up in rifles. The models I'm familiar with and can use effectively aren't listed (Steyr Scout Rifle and Winchester 94), but I'm also well acquainted with the Garand, M14, and M16 (or rather, the semi-auto versions of the last two). These have STR minimums of 12-15. Now, I know that I can't use these effectively when firing offhand, but I _can_ use them just fine from a braced position.

 

Does anybody know why the STR minimums are so high?

 

I do like the idea of a minimum--I know that most rifles are too heavy for me to use effectively, and I like a game mechanic that reflects that.

[MitchellS]

Re: STR minimum question

 

It's not so much a question of the str minimums being too high, it's more a question of how accurately you can control the guns when you shoot them. You can still fire a weapon if you have a lower strength you just get accuracy penalties. Since characters have a starting strength of 10 in Hero those penalties don't seem to be much of an issue most of the time. If the str minimum were 5 what would be the point of having a str minimum? Every person in the game would start out exceeding that.

[Fox1]

Re: STR minimum question

 

Does anybody know why the STR minimums are so high?

 

First, for handguns and it's not as bad as it looks. The values are for one-handed use. Reduce it by 3 if you're using both hands.

 

Second, braced used to give you +5 vs. STR Mins. I don't recall if this remains in 5th edition or not- but it makes a great house rule.

 

Beyond that, most people will only take a -1 OCV (being within 5 points of the needed STR Min) for firearms. Since most people I see on the gun range do flinch when firing the heavier weapons, this *may* be reasonable.

 

However there is a degree of 'the gun constructions' are whacked in HERO. It comes from the fact that 10 is the baseline for PCs but the rules seem to want to claim that 8 is actually the average for people. As a result, the world's police forces and armies are full of people who can't properly handle their weapons.

 

Shrug.

 

You always have the option of building your own firearms (or revising the lift limits of your own STR chart). I did both.

[Sean Waters]

Re: STR minimum question

 

Maybe you are suffering accuracy penalties due to strength but you have bought penalty skill levels to offset them? Best check your character sheet.

 

End of the day, this is a generic system, and doesn't model individual casses brilliantly. You CAN do it, but it is far too much work for me...

[khagler]

Re: STR minimum question

 

Thanks for the ideas. I had noticed the reduction for two-hand use--my point was that with that reduction I would still get a penalty, which is not the case in reality, and that in any case I can actually use all those weapons with one hand just fine.

 

I've seen people flinching on the gun range too, but that's a factor of noise and recoil. Some friends and co-workers are intimidated by my .45 ACP pistols, but have no problem with my 9mms, even though they weigh almost the same.

 

The penalty skill levels seem like a good way to shoehorn reality into the game system. I hadn't even considered that--I guess one of the things I need to learn about this system is that things in the book can have many more uses than just those given as examples. :-)

[Fox1]

Re: STR minimum question

 

I've seen people flinching on the gun range too' date=' but that's a factor of noise and recoil. Some friends and co-workers are intimidated by my .45 ACP pistols, but have no problem with my 9mms, even though they weigh almost the same.[/quote']

 

I don't believe weight of the weapon is the primary factor determining STR Min, rather it is recoil/flash/noise.

 

Besides the PSL, you can also buy 'Gun Muscle', i.e. STR who's only value is to assist with firearms. It's detailed in Dark Champions as I recall and can represent someone who's trained himself to overcome the handling problems of a weapon with recoil/flash beyond his normal STR limits.

[Sean Waters]

Re: STR minimum question

 

 

The penalty skill levels seem like a good way to shoehorn reality into the game system. I hadn't even considered that--I guess one of the things I need to learn about this system is that things in the book can have many more uses than just those given as examples. :-)

 

Alleluia to that! It is one of the systems biggest problems/features (pick one, or both....)

[khagler]

Re: STR minimum question

 

I don't believe weight of the weapon is the primary factor determining STR Min, rather it is recoil/flash/noise.

 

Besides the PSL, you can also buy 'Gun Muscle', i.e. STR who's only value is to assist with firearms. It's detailed in Dark Champions as I recall and can represent someone who's trained himself to overcome the handling problems of a weapon with recoil/flash beyond his normal STR limits.

 

Thanks for pointing out Gun Muscle. I'd missed that.

 

In real life strength has nothing to do with recoil, but that's a common game mistake, so you may be right.

 

Here's an idea for a recoil limit:

 

Assign an EGO minimum to each weapon based on recoil, noise, and muzzle flash. If the shooter doesn't meet the minimum, the player has to make an EGO check for each shot after the first. Failure results in a loss of accuracy, or even an inability to fire at all, to reflect the character being scared of the gun. :-)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: STR minimum question

 

Another footnote rule you may have missed when evaluating yourself is the fact that the lifting capacity listed on the strength chart is specfically supposed to be the amount you can just barely lift using your whole body and stagger a few steps with. You may rate a higher strength than you gave yourself if you were using your best benchpress or something similar. I had this problem initally as well when writing myself up.

[Fox1]

Re: STR minimum question

 

In real life strength has nothing to do with recoil' date=' but that's a common game mistake, so you may be right.[/quote']

 

Recoil is a very complex subject with a large number of difficult if not impossible to determine factors that impact each individual differently.

 

That said, I don't think using the simple rule of greater STR = greater ability to handle recoil is that bad of a defining factor. It is after all that very relationship that in part determines weapon selection in the military and law enforcement. Bigger Stronger by nature results in people less impressed by recoil.

 

Toss in Gun Muscle, Psy Limits and simple lack of WF, and you can IMO cover the range of likely recoil reactions well enough for HERO's level of detail.

 

But then again I'm big on not adding new things to the rules unless I can't find any other way. So do what you think is best.

[khagler]

Re: STR minimum question

 

Another footnote rule you may have missed when evaluating yourself is the fact that the lifting capacity listed on the strength chart is specfically supposed to be the amount you can just barely lift using your whole body and stagger a few steps with. You may rate a higher strength than you gave yourself if you were using your best benchpress or something similar. I had this problem initally as well when writing myself up.

 

I did see that rule. I was going by the heaviest thing I can ever remember picking up, and even then I may well have been too generous.

 

I never felt any need to press benches--I much prefer sitting on them. ;-)

[khagler]

Re: STR minimum question

 

Here's what I ended up using:

 

Gun Muscle (Weak Muscles): +5 STR, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (7 Active Points); Only To Meet STR Modifier For Using Firearms (-2)

[Dust Raven]

Re: STR minimum question

 

I did see that rule. I was going by the heaviest thing I can ever remember picking up, and even then I may well have been too generous.

 

I never felt any need to press benches--I much prefer sitting on them. ;-)

 

Maybe, but basing your STR characteristic on the heaviest thing you have ever lifted might not be the best way to estimate. It depends on how you did the lifting. At worst, consider the heaviest thing you have ever lifted (using legs, arms and a straight back, lifting no higher than the hip) as about 90% of your total lifting capacity. If you are figuring it based on lifting something to chest height or higher, or being able to move more than two steps while lifting it, it could be as low as 50%. These estimations are from the Ultimate Brick.

[khagler]

Re: STR minimum question

 

Maybe' date=' but basing your STR characteristic on the heaviest thing you have ever lifted might not be the best way to estimate. It depends on how you did the lifting. At worst, consider the heaviest thing you have ever lifted (using legs, arms and a straight back, lifting no higher than the hip) as about 90% of your total lifting capacity.[/quote']

 

That's what I did. The strength table does mention that it shows the maximum that a character can just manage to lift off the ground and stagger for a step or two with before dropping.

[MitchellS]

Re: STR minimum question

 

That's what I did. The strength table does mention that it shows the maximum that a character can just manage to lift off the ground and stagger for a step or two with before dropping.

No disrespect intended but there are very few people who can't pick up and carry 110 pounds [str 5] without too much effort. I'm sure you can carry your bride across a threshold [assuming you are an average adult male] without staggering or grunting from effort. You can probably carry me across the threshold [195 pounds] and a few more meters too, of course I'll need to hit you afterwards.

 

I'm sure your strength falls in the 8-10 normal range.

[khagler]

Re: STR minimum question

 

No disrespect intended but there are very few people who can't pick up and carry 110 pounds [str 5] without too much effort. I'm sure you can carry your bride across a threshold [assuming you are an average adult male] without staggering or grunting from effort. You can probably carry me across the threshold [195 pounds] and a few more meters too, of course I'll need to hit you afterwards.

 

I'm sure your strength falls in the 8-10 normal range.

 

That's a rather odd post. Believe it or not, I actually do have a reasonable idea of how much I can lift.

 

If I were also left-handed, would you tell me that you're sure I must really be right-handed because very few people are left-handed?

[Sean Waters]

Re: STR minimum question

 

That's a rather odd post. Believe it or not, I actually do have a reasonable idea of how much I can lift.

 

If I were also left-handed, would you tell me that you're sure I must really be right-handed because very few people are left-handed?

 

I'm sure no disrespect was intended but I have to say I've had the same misconception about how Hero measures strength: in a fireman's lift I can (or could at one point) justify having a strength between 15 and 20. Frankly, I don't think that my strength is anything like that, but there you go.

 

The other thing is that different people have different strength in different parts of their bodies. Some people have strong arms, some strong legs (my legs are pretty strong, hence I can get quite a lot of weight off the ground), so even then it is only a rough guide.

[MitchellS]

Re: STR minimum question

 

That's a rather odd post. Believe it or not, I actually do have a reasonable idea of how much I can lift.

 

If I were also left-handed, would you tell me that you're sure I must really be right-handed because very few people are left-handed?

I believe you're attempting to equate a dead-mass lift with what you can actually lift and carry. It's not that difficult to get proper leverage to pick up a 200 pound person from the ground. Granted it's not a 1 second action as it is in the game, but that's just a game. The rules don't dictate the specifics of how you can pick up this mass [fireman's carry, leverage, etc.]. The rules only state the maximum amount that someone can pickup and move a few steps with.

 

I could not just walk over and snatch up 100 pounds in 1 second but before my accident I many-times bear hugged and picked up a 330 pound person and I'm basically average [5'10", 185 pounds]. You might be the exception or you might be over-interpreting the rules. I chose the latter in my assessment.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: STR minimum question

 

Of course, we also don't know anything about you... you could be spot on in your assement of your strength. You could be a skinny 11 year old, for instance

I just pointed out the clarification because, IME, most people under rate themselves in HERO Str. terms. Of course, the Strength chart is kinda wacked at lower levels anyway. I recently reevaluated my own write up when I deadlifted an upright piano to have someone slip blocks under it. And I'm no strongman, tho I should write myself with some weapon strength... I've yet to meet a firearm I can't control, and I used to fight with a greatsword/and or greataxe on a regular basis without having a 17-18 str.

I call myself a 13 with +5 points (Only for Str minimums)

And on the rcoil subtopic...

Modern guns are designed to counteract physical recoil... to a lesser or greater extent. To say that recoil is not a matter of strength, however, is to say that you've never fired a 1530's style wheelock pistol with a 120 grain powder charge. The only other thing that I've EVER fired that kicked like that was a sawed off pistol grip (and very illegal) side by side 12 gauge. Due to, in the first, early and crude firearms design, and in the second by deliberately altering the weapon to something it was not designed to be, both wound up kicking like mules, and pretty much had to be muscled down to hold them on target. But I do tend to agree that the STR minimums on modern arms are a bit high. If I were to play them as written, I'd probably cosider the OCV penalty associated with insufficent STR to reflect that its a bit harder for a weak shooter to keep a heavy firearm steady. My sister has this problem occasionally when we go to the range... if shes at all tired, her groupings with the .41 magnum start to drift.

[khagler]

Re: STR minimum question

 

I believe you're attempting to equate a dead-mass lift with what you can actually lift and carry. It's not that difficult to get proper leverage to pick up a 200 pound person from the ground. Granted it's not a 1 second action as it is in the game' date=' but that's just a game. The rules don't dictate the specifics of how you can pick up this mass [fireman's carry, leverage, etc.']. The rules only state the maximum amount that someone can pickup and move a few steps with.

 

Yes, exactly. Just so. I understand completely. STR was actually the single easiest thing to do when translating myself into a character, because the strength table gives nice, clear values for each strength rating.

 

I suspect that there may be some cultural differences getting in the way, here. The assumptions implied in your example about "carry your bride" do seem to point in that direction.

 

Would it help to mention that one of the disadvantages I gave myself is Social Limitation: Geek? :-)

[khagler]

Re: STR minimum question

 

To say that recoil is not a matter of strength' date=' however, is to say that you've never fired a 1530's style wheelock pistol with a 120 grain powder charge. The only other thing that I've EVER fired that kicked like that was a sawed off pistol grip (and very illegal) side by side 12 gauge. Due to, in the first, early and crude firearms design, and in the second by deliberately altering the weapon to something it was not designed to be, both wound up kicking like mules, and pretty much had to be muscled down to hold them on target.[/quote']

 

What I was trying to get at was that the recoil of those (or any other) firearm isn't going to be any less if you're stronger. The recoil is going to shift your point of aim regardless of your strength (by quite a bit in those examples), and reacquiring a sight picture quickly isn't really a function of strength, but of dexterity and skill.

 

But I do tend to agree that the STR minimums on modern arms are a bit high. If I were to play them as written' date=' I'd probably cosider the OCV penalty associated with insufficent STR to reflect that its a bit harder for a weak shooter to keep a heavy firearm steady. My sister has this problem occasionally when we go to the range... if shes at all tired, her groupings with the .41 magnum start to drift.[/quote']

 

Yes, the STR minimums should definitely be there--I know that most of the larger magnum revolvers and things like the Desert Eagle are too heavy for me, for example. I think subtracting 5 from all the STR minimums would probably be about right.

 

As a side note, the penalty for firing a weapon that's too heavy for you are, if anything, a bit low. I can fire a Garand (STR minimum 15) just fine from any kind of supported position, but if I try to fire it offhand my accuracy drops dramatically (because I can barely hold it up). I wouldn't object to a GM giving me -1 for every 1 STR below the minimum, instead of every 5.

[prestidigitator]

Re: STR minimum question

 

Can you do a chin-up? Can you come close? If so, you probably have enough Strength to lift your own bodyweight.

[khagler]

Re: STR minimum question

 

Can you do a chin-up? Can you come close? If so' date=' you probably have enough Strength to lift your own bodyweight.[/quote']

 

Beats me--the last time somebody tried to make me do a chin-up was in high school, long ago. I have no reason to think that I would be able to (or even come close), though.

[Dust Raven]

Re: STR minimum question

 

That's a rather odd post. Believe it or not' date=' I actually do have a reasonable idea of how much I can lift.[/quote']

 

I don't think anyone's doubting that, but rather how that knowledge applies to a game stat. I can't do a single pull up, nor can I bench my own weight, and a push-up is extremely strenuous (I'm really out of shape), but I can lift my fridge, bash down my front door, and lift the front end of my car off the ground without a jack. I'm just suggesting you don't have a complete frame of reference for determing your actual STR score. I could be wrong, and you might have the perfect reference. But seeing that I have the same Disad you do (Geek), and I have insanely tested myself to find out what my own STR is, and couldn't come to anything conclusive, I'm thinking you might be in the same boat. Another thing is that none of us have any idea how you were lifting the heaviest thing you've ever lifted, just what you were able to do while lifting it. I've been barely able to lift a 50 lb box of pillows, couldn't move at all and have it slip from my grasp almost instantly. That's just 50 lbs... but 50 lbs with rotten leverage. Not a good example of what I can actually lift (like my fridge, assuming I have great leverage).

[khagler]

Re: STR minimum question

 

I don't think anyone's doubting that' date=' but rather how that knowledge applies to a game stat.[/quote']

 

Actually this particular game stat is the most clearly defined in the book. It says right there on page 34: "Lift: The maximum amount of weight the character can usually just manage to lift off the ground,stagger with for a step or two, then drop, in kilograms."

 

Ironically, I was actually being generous when giving myself a 5, because while I've never tried to lift 50 kg before, I have managed (once, just barely) to lift around 85-90. And I didn't try to stagger with it, either--more like put it down again as quickly as possible, before I hurt myself. :-)

 

I think the cultural differences I mentioned earlier are the major factor here. Some people seem to be unable to accept the idea that I could really not be strong, and are looking for rationalizations for why I'm stronger than I really am.

 

Of course I could be wrong about that, but as I had mentioned before, there are some assumptions made in this thread that point that way. Here's another : you assumed I would know what "bench your own weight" means. You're the second person to refer to benches in this thread, and I recognize it as something that jocks like to say, but I have no idea what it means in this context.

 

My impression is that in the world of people who talk that way, the idea of a grown man being physically weak is simply inconceivable.