STR minimum question

[Markdoc]

Re: STR minimum question

 

Actually this particular game stat is the most clearly defined in the book. It says right there on page 34: "Lift: The maximum amount of weight the character can usually just manage to lift off the ground' date='stagger with for a step or two, then drop, in kilograms."[/quote']

 

Yep. The problem with the STR rules is not the STR rules per se, but this paragraph. Simply put, it's wrong.

 

Sure, I know SteveL wrote it and we discussed it in the past, but it's still wrong.

 

Manage to lift off the ground and stagger with for a step or two. Oh, so lifting your max normal weight gives you a movement penalty? Well, no. A DCV penalty? No, actually. Does it stop you jumping, or running? Well, no, in fact, it doesn't. But surely, given that description you burn through all your END so fast you can only hold it up for a few seconds? Well, no. Actually most normals can hold their maximum lift in the air for as long as they like - they recover END at the same rate they burn it for STR.

 

Now I know you can change this by houseruling, and you can address a few of these issues by using the optional encumbrance rules, but the simplest way to deal with this simply reformat your thinking - that your max lift is how much you can lift and still function relatively normally. At which point, adult STR in the 5-8 range looks pretty reasonable, and how much you can lift and stagger with is what you do when pushing.

 

cheers, Mark

[Bloodstone]

Re: STR minimum question

 

I can readily accept that the OP is physically weak. I can also readily accept that in over a decade and a half of gaming, I've seen people underestimate their own Strength in a variety of games. Especially people that, by their own admission, don't spend much time at the gym.

 

Lifting neatly balanced weights to get an idea of how strong you are is vastly different from picking up random, unbalanced ojects in day to day life.

 

I can lift a somewhat impressive amout of weight in the gym for a person my size. I can also stagger around stupidly with far less weight if, by chance, said weight is large, unbalanced and/or difficult to grasp, such as a widescreen TV or a King sized matress.

 

So while it is entierly possible that the OP is physicaly weak and that the firearm STR minimums are completly out of whack it is also entierly possibly that the OP doesn't have a realistic gauge on how weak or strong he actually is.

 

Hell, it may well be a combination of the two...

[Dust Raven]

Re: STR minimum question

 

Actually this particular game stat is the most clearly defined in the book. It says right there on page 34: "Lift: The maximum amount of weight the character can usually just manage to lift off the ground,stagger with for a step or two, then drop, in kilograms."

 

Ironically, I was actually being generous when giving myself a 5, because while I've never tried to lift 50 kg before, I have managed (once, just barely) to lift around 85-90. And I didn't try to stagger with it, either--more like put it down again as quickly as possible, before I hurt myself. :-)

Again, I'll ask, what item did you lift, and how did you lift it? From what you are saying now, you might as well be arguing that the world is flat and the sun revolves around the earth, just because you haven't seen anything different. I'd ask you to look around, continue to experiment with how much you can lift, but I really have no idea what it is you've already tried, if anything. As far as I know you are remembering something that felt really heavy when you picked it up when you were 13 and some 12 year old friend said "wow, that must have weighed 90 kg!" and it's all you are basing it all. I just what clarification on what it is you did lift, under what conditions and what method you used to lift it.

 

I think the cultural differences I mentioned earlier are the major factor here. Some people seem to be unable to accept the idea that I could really not be strong, and are looking for rationalizations for why I'm stronger than I really am.

 

Of course I could be wrong about that, but as I had mentioned before, there are some assumptions made in this thread that point that way. Here's another : you assumed I would know what "bench your own weight" means. You're the second person to refer to benches in this thread, and I recognize it as something that jocks like to say, but I have no idea what it means in this context.

Last I checked, "geek" was a lifestyle, not a culture, so I don't know what you mean by cultural differences. I haven't met a single person in the U.S. that didn't know what a bench press was. Granted, you didn't list your location so you might not be from the U.S. Many people on these boards aren't, but most of them are, so unless you tell us otherwise, most of us will assume you are from the U.S., even people who aren't.

 

In any case, they have a bench press in other cultrues as well, I'm just not sure what it's called. Basically, the weightlifter lays flat on his back on a padded bench, and lifts a bar with weights on either end. The motion involved lifting the weighted bar off a rack, lowering it down to his chest, lifting it straight up until arms are fully extended, then repeating (or just putting it back in the rack).

 

My impression is that in the world of people who talk that way, the idea of a grown man being physically weak is simply inconceivable.

Nice of you to think I'm a big buff strongman, but I'm not. But the only grown man I've ever known who I could safely say had a STR of around 5 could in no way handle a firearm, and definately due to a STR issue.

[Dust Raven]

Re: STR minimum question

 

Yep. The problem with the STR rules is not the STR rules per se, but this paragraph. Simply put, it's wrong.

 

Sure, I know SteveL wrote it and we discussed it in the past, but it's still wrong.

 

Manage to lift off the ground and stagger with for a step or two. Oh, so lifting your max normal weight gives you a movement penalty? Well, no. A DCV penalty? No, actually. Does it stop you jumping, or running? Well, no, in fact, it doesn't. But surely, given that description you burn through all your END so fast you can only hold it up for a few seconds? Well, no. Actually most normals can hold their maximum lift in the air for as long as they like - they recover END at the same rate they burn it for STR.

 

Actually, it does do all of those things. Check the rules for encumberance.

[khagler]

Re: STR minimum question

 

Good grief, this thread has really gotten ridiculous. If my lack of strength really bothers people or threatens them so much, then feel free to keep right on denying my existence. I long since got the information I needed about STR minimums for firearms, so I consider the matter closed.

[Dust Raven]

Re: STR minimum question

 

Good grief' date=' this thread has really gotten ridiculous. If my lack of strength really bothers people or threatens them so much, then feel free to keep right on denying my existence. I long since got the information I needed about STR minimums for firearms, so I consider the matter closed.[/quote']

 

I'm just asking you to defend your findings. If you feel bothered or threatened by that, I'm sorry. Just trying to get you to think outside the box.

[Vondy]

Re: STR minimum question

 

If you feel the strength minimums are incorrect, be they too high or too low, you should change them. It is, after all, your game. In my opinion most of them are fairly arbitrary. I only use them for assessing damage. Otherwise I pretty much ignore the strength minimum rules altogether (unless there is a serious realism question in play).

[khagler]

Re: STR minimum question

 

On a related note, here's a handy real-world STR minimum test, originally proposed by Jeff Cooper:

 

Hold your rifle vertically out to your side at arm's length, shoulder height, for one minute. If you can't do it, the rifle is too heavy.

[prestidigitator]

Re: STR minimum question

 

On a related note, here's a handy real-world STR minimum test, originally proposed by Jeff Cooper:

 

Hold your rifle vertically out to your side at arm's length, shoulder height, for one minute. If you can't do it, the rifle is too heavy.

That sounds more like a Constitution or Endurance (EDIT: or Recovery perhaps!) measure than a Strength one to me.

 

Anyhow, I had an idea on the general topic of Strength. Most dramatic actions in the system take place in situations where most people would be pumped full of adrenaline. Even athletes in a competition can be in such a state. Once the mental fetters are cast aside, perhaps we can get a truer guage of what the physical carapace is capable of.

 

Of course, if that is the case, how many of us have any idea what our Strength scores could be? Only those who participate in weightlifting competitions?

[Markdoc]

Re: STR minimum question

 

Actually' date=' it does do all of those things. Check the rules for encumberance.[/quote']

 

I did. It doesn't.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shucks, I even mentioned it in the same post.

[MitchellS]

Re: STR minimum question

 

I did. It doesn't.

 

cheers, Mark

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Shucks, I even mentioned it in the same post.

It seems that encumbrance covers it to me. Carry 100% of your weight limit and you're -5 to dex rolls, -8" of movement, and use 4 additional end per turn. It's not perfect but it is functionable.

[prestidigitator]

Re: STR minimum question

 

It seems that encumbrance covers it to me. Carry 100% of your weight limit and you're -5 to dex rolls' date=' -8" of movement, and use 4 additional end per turn. It's not perfect but it is functionable.[/quote']

And if you choose to use the optional Long Term End rules, that is most likely going to result in some quick Long Term End loss.