Hardened Defenses question

[Dauntless]

Let's say I have an EB with the advantages Armor Piercing and Penetration. I hit an opponent who has Hardened defenses. How does the damage get applied?

 

Does the Hardened defenses cancel both the Armor Piercing and the Penetration advantages? Does it only cancel one, and if so, which one? Instead of choosing Armor Piercing and Penetration, it might have been Indirect and Armor Piercing. Basically my question deals with how one level of Hardened defenses deals with an offense with multiple advantages.

[pinecone]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

Used to be it stopped both (4Th) I never liked that so I did it differant, (it stopped one, defender chooses) nowadays it stops one, in 5th it was you chose when you buy the def...I don't like that so I say you get to choose each time (each battle that is...) I haven't read the 5Er yet on this but I suspect its much the same as 5th was...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

As with pinecone, I'm not sure if 5er says differently but...

 

Basically, when you buy the Hardened Advantage for a defense, you specify what it applies to first if the attack has both Penetrating and Armor Piercing. You should also do this if have more than one level of Hardened, just in case you find an attack with multiple levels of Penetrating and Armor Piercing. Most of the time it just doesn't matter; not many attacks have both Penetrating and Armor Piercing, as it makes for a scary but rather inneffective attack, even against ordinary defences.

 

The decision should make logical sense, if possible, and based on SFX. I'm not sure what that means or how it applies, but it tends to be good advice.

 

An alternate option I've been toying with, is to have the GM choose at the time the attack goes off. That decision is permanent for that attack against that character. This allows for less stress on the player when writing up a character and allows for more logical sense in determing which should apply. A character with hardened ED and Damage Resistance (durable flesh) that's hit with a plasma beam (RKA 2d6, AP, Pen) might logically have the Hardened work against the AP (the plasma is hot, and does it's damage though direct heat and bypasses defenses), but if attacked by a needler (RKA 2d6, AP, Pen), it might work against the Penetrating first (the needler beam is nearly molecule thin and does it's extra damage by moving unhindered through defenses).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

Dust Raven is *essentially correct.

 

*Besides stopping Armor Piercing and Penetration, Hardened also stops the Indirect advantage.

 

from:

http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/revisedrules/POWER%20ADVANTAGES%20AND%20ADDERS.htm

*NEW*Q: When does a character need to define which Advantages his Hardened works against?

 

A: The need to “define†Hardened applies only to attacks that have two or more of the different Advantages that Hardened works against. As long as there are no more of those Advantages than there are levels of Hardened, Hardened automatically protects against them without the need to “define†anything. For example, a single level of Hardened will stop an Indirect attack, a Penetrating attack, or an AP attack. It’s only when an attack is, say, both AP and Penetrating that the need to “define†the Hardened comes into play.

To add further confusion to the mix, Armor Piercing applied to Teleportation is NOT stopped by Hardened. Only barriers (like Force Walls and Entangles) that have the advantage "Cannot Be Escaped With Teleportation (+1/4)".

 

HM

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

*Besides stopping Armor Piercing and Penetration' date=' Hardened also stops the Indirect advantage.[/quote']

 

I actually have no idea how Indirect interacts with Armor Piercing and Penetrating against Hardened defenses. If I have an EB that is Indirect and AP, and try to attack a character on the other side of a Hardened FW, does the AP allow me to still attack through it, and if so, would the FW be at 1/2 or full defense against the attack? I have no clue!

[Dauntless]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

I had assumed that if an attack was Indirect and AP, and you were attacking an opponent behind a Force Wall, then the attack totally ignores the Force Wall, AND the defender only gets 1/2 his non-FW defenses against the attack. The Indirect bypasses the FW, and the AP affects any other defenses.

 

Okay, I get the picture now though. If a character is hit by an AP and Penetrating attack and the defender only has one level of Hardened defenses, he chooses which of the advantages to cancel out. If the defender had two levels of Hardened defenses, then he can cancel out both advantages.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

I actually have no idea how Indirect interacts with Armor Piercing and Penetrating against Hardened defenses. If I have an EB that is Indirect and AP' date=' and try to attack a character on the other side of a Hardened FW, does the AP allow me to still attack through it, and if so, would the FW be at 1/2 or full defense against the attack? I have no clue![/quote']

 

Per the same logic as your example with only AP and Penetrating, Hardened needs to be defined as to which one of the 3 possible advantages (AP, Indirect or Penetrating) that it affects first if multiple are applied to the same attack. So in your example there are 2 possibilities:

1. If the Hardened is prioritized for Indirect above AP, the FW is NOT bypassed by Indirect but its defenses are halved by the AP.
   
2. If the Hardened is prioritized for AP above Indirect, the FW is bypassed completely by the Indirect advantage and the AP might still apply vs. any defenses beyond the FW if they do not also have the Hardened advantage.
   

HM.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

Per the same logic as your example with only AP and Penetrating, Hardened needs to be defined as to which one of the 3 possible advantages (AP, Indirect or Penetrating) that it affects first if multiple are applied to the same attack. So in your example there are 2 possibilities:

1. If the Hardened is prioritized for Indirect above AP, the FW is NOT bypassed by Indirect but its defenses are halved by the AP.
   
2. If the Hardened is prioritized for AP above Indirect, the FW is bypassed completely by the Indirect advantage and the AP might still apply vs. any defenses beyond the FW if they do not also have the Hardened advantage.
   

HM.

 

And that just sounds screwey to me. If it's prioritized against anything other than Indirect, the Hardened is useless if the attack has both Indirect and Armor Piercing. That doesn't make sense to me.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

And that just sounds screwey to me. If it's prioritized against anything other than Indirect' date=' the Hardened is useless if the attack has both Indirect and Armor Piercing. That doesn't make sense to me.[/quote']

I can't recall myself if Hardened affects Indirect, but in any case it would only matter for Force Wall, since Indirect cannot be used to circumvent other defenses (unless they are sectional defenses, such as those that only protect against frontal attacks, but in that case even Hardened defenses shouldn't affect the Indirect attack at all).

 

If a Hardened Force Wall does prevent Indirect attacks, I would probably just say that this is in addition to stopping the prioritized list of Armor Piercing and Penetrating.

 

By the way, if you take Hardened multiple times, it should probably be prioritized more than once. For example, if I have a power which is double-Hardened and I choose that AP is stopped first, I should also choose whether the second Hardened will first stop another application of AP or a level of Penetrating. What a mess, eh?

[pinecone]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

Yeah...it may be too "gamey" for some but I just let the defender choose when he's hit and cover all the maechanics as needed (in case they do not yet posses the "cheese master" perq.)......most often it obvious what you want to stop...sometimes it driven by special effects...if the character is "invulnrable" by concept you will probibly stop the Pen even though the AP would be smarter because you don't want Mr. Invincable to bleed......

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

I can't recall myself if Hardened affects Indirect' date=' but in any case it would only matter for Force Wall, since Indirect cannot be used to circumvent other defenses (unless they are sectional defenses, such as those that only protect against frontal attacks, but in that case even Hardened defenses shouldn't affect the Indirect attack at all).[/quote']Essentially correct.

 

Any external defense (FW, real wall, Entangle or Armor bought via a focus like Captain America's shield) bought with Hardened AND the limitation of Only vs. Frontal attacks would only be bypassed IF the Indirect is bought at a level that allows for attacks from ANY direction (+1/2 or +3/4 but not +1/4). It WOULD stop a brick trick of punching someone on the other side of the wall via the sfx of transmitting the impact force through the material without damaging it.

 

If a Hardened Force Wall does prevent Indirect attacks, I would probably just say that this is in addition to stopping the prioritized list of Armor Piercing and Penetrating.

 

By the way, if you take Hardened multiple times, it should probably be prioritized more than once. For example, if I have a power which is double-Hardened and I choose that AP is stopped first, I should also choose whether the second Hardened will first stop another application of AP or a level of Penetrating. What a mess, eh?

Prioritization is ONLY necessary if the number of advantages that have "anti-hardened effects" (AP, Penetrating and Indirect) are greater than the number of levels of Hardened.

 

Indirect is the tricky one of the bunch since its effects can end up being all or nothing in certain circumstances. Whenever the Enterprise's transporters are used through an enemy ship's shields they are essentially using a form of the Indirect Advantage. On the other end of the scale, Iron-Man's armor has been bypassed by his enemy's attacks in a similar fashion. However, such attacks usually would not work the same way against the 'natural' defenses of someone like Thor.

 

SFX matters.

 

HM

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

Indirect is the tricky one of the bunch since its effects can end up being all or nothing in certain circumstances. Whenever the Enterprise's transporters are used through an enemy ship's shields they are essentially using a form of the Indirect Advantage. On the other end of the scale, Iron-Man's armor has been bypassed by his enemy's attacks in a similar fashion. However, such attacks usually would not work the same way against the 'natural' defenses of someone like Thor.

 

SFX matters.

Indirect can not be used to bypass Personal defenses from Armor, Force Field, or natural PD and ED. If Iron Man's defenses were bypassed, it would technically be because of a NND, AVLD, or similar attack, with SFX that might describe it as attacking in some, "indirect," fashion.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

I can't recall myself if Hardened affects Indirect, but in any case it would only matter for Force Wall, since Indirect cannot be used to circumvent other defenses (unless they are sectional defenses, such as those that only protect against frontal attacks, but in that case even Hardened defenses shouldn't affect the Indirect attack at all).

 

If a Hardened Force Wall does prevent Indirect attacks, I would probably just say that this is in addition to stopping the prioritized list of Armor Piercing and Penetrating.

That's the way I've always done it, but you would use AP to get the Indirect attack through a Hardened defense, so what get's stopped? At least I think that's they way it works. I know that's how Teleport (at least to) works, if you want to teleport through a hardened (but we have a special advantage for that now, so I'm all confused) defense you buy AP for it.

 

 

Will a newbie please read the rules for me and tell me what they mean?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

Prioritization is ONLY necessary if the number of advantages that have "anti-hardened effects" (AP' date=' Penetrating and Indirect) are greater than the number of levels of Hardened. [/quote']

 

Except that those prioritizations need to be made during character creation, so you have to do it unless the GM promises to never allow and present a Power that has more than one.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

Except that those prioritizations need to be made during character creation' date=' so you have to do it unless the GM promises to never allow and present a Power that has more than one.[/quote']Why? The way I read the character write ups it only seems that the player gets to decide which attack adder their hardened advantage cancels out. I haven't seen any defenses with attack advantage specific hardens unless it was specific to that particular defense that the hardened only works against that particular attack advantage.

 

The way I've read it, if you have Hardenedx2 and someone attacks you with (APx2, Penx1) you get to decide if you are going to cancel all of the AP or one of each. And if the next round you get hit with a Penx2, you can cancel both Pen with your hardened.

 

Are there any examples with a character having defenses with explicitly defined Hardened vs AP or Hardened vs Pen only?

 

TB

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

Are there any examples with a character having defenses with explicitly defined Hardened vs AP or Hardened vs Pen only?

 

TB

 

None whatsoever!

 

But is says right there in the description of Hardened that the choice must be made when the Advantage is purshased. Strange, huh?

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

None whatsoever!

 

But is says right there in the description of Hardened that the choice must be made when the Advantage is purshased. Strange, huh?

I'm going to handwave it and say that Hardened is Universal. It becomes grossly prohibitive in price and utility otherwise.

 

TB

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

I'm going to handwave it and say that Hardened is Universal. It becomes grossly prohibitive in price and utility otherwise.

 

TB

 

As it in one level counters the first level of any combination of AP, Pen and Indirect? If it does that, might be worth a +1/2.

 

I'll stick with letting the GM decide on an as needed basis during game play. Let the GM do some of the dirty work for a change. I trust him.

 

Then again, I'm usually the GM...

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

As it in one level counters the first level of any combination of AP, Pen and Indirect? If it does that, might be worth a +1/2.

 

I'll stick with letting the GM decide on an as needed basis during game play. Let the GM do some of the dirty work for a change. I trust him.

 

Then again, I'm usually the GM...

No, Hardenedx1 would cancel APx1, Penx1, OR Indirectx1 if attacked by an AP, Pen, and Indirect attack not all three(which advantage of these three it would cancel would be the choice of the player at the time of an attack)

 

TB

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

No, Hardenedx1 would cancel APx1, Penx1, OR Indirectx1 if attacked by an AP, Pen, and Indirect attack not all three(which advantage of these three it would cancel would be the choice of the player at the time of an attack)

 

TB

This a perfectly good way to run your game. However, if a player designs a character with hardened defenses he is obviously predicting some sort of encounter with attackst that otherwise circumvent non-hardened defenses. Requiring further definition or prioritization of how their specific use of hardened interacts in game when up against anti-hardened attacks does not seem unreasonable at all.

 

perfect example from source material:

 

Mr. Incredible.

 

If you've watched the DVD extra's it notes that he is impervious to being cut by a knife. It is therefore reasonable to say that he is then also impervious to bullets. Since his reaction to being sliced by the Omnidroid was one of shock I would also deduce that he probably has at least 1 level of hardened on his resistant defenses to deal with the otherwise commonplace AP bullets that normal crooks might have access to. Based on this, I would give the Omnidroid's attacks a minimum of 2 levels of AP or Penetrating in some combination. Deciding how Mr. Incredible's Hardened resistent defenses interact with that attack should be based on the background of his powers AND the omnidroids.

 

HM

[pinecone]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

Yeah like I said sometimes it based on special effects so the "table talk" might be something like this; Mr. Incredible has Hardened on his resistant def 1x, and the Omnidroid has a AP,Pen claw....Mr.I "Jesus, that thing is murder!...I'm stopping the AP, if I get stunned I'l DIE!" GM "Dude Mr. I has never been cut! If you stop the AP you will get cut 'cause you will take body..." Mr. I "Dude I do not care....I'll just look shocked when it happens...no way you're talking me into taking a beatin..." The 5Th way say you set the "priority list" at creation so Mr. I would have specified at creation that if it ever comes up his hardened stops x befor y....that does not mean it won't stop y, it only means x take precident so it will stop AP or Pen (or Indirect if that aplys) but if it must stop Both x is what gets stopped. I don't like that way so I let special effects or the player decide "Duuude...that is just Wrong...I'll be stopping AP for this battle" But if the special effects enter into it then that might take the choice away from the player and I'll set the priority for one level of Hardended.....

[Dust Raven]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

Yeah like I said sometimes it based on special effects so the "table talk" might be something like this; Mr. Incredible has Hardened on his resistant def 1x' date=' and the Omnidroid has a AP,Pen claw....Mr.I "Jesus, that thing is murder!...I'm stopping the AP, if I get stunned I'l DIE!" GM "Dude Mr. I has never been cut! If you stop the AP you will get cut 'cause you will take body..." Mr. I "Dude I do not care....I'll just look shocked when it happens...no way you're talking me into taking a beatin..." The 5Th way say you set the "priority list" at creation so Mr. I would have specified at creation that if it ever comes up his hardened stops x befor y....that does not mean it won't stop y, it only means x take precident so it will stop AP or Pen (or Indirect if that aplys) but if it must stop Both x is what gets stopped. I don't like that way so I let special effects or the player decide "Duuude...that is just Wrong...I'll be stopping AP for this battle" But if the special effects enter into it then that might take the choice away from the player and I'll set the priority for one level of Hardended.....[/quote']

 

Pretty close to what I do, but I don't even involve the player. SFX decides for us both. Of course, I have yet to have this every occur in my games. I've had characters that had Hardened, and I've seen attacks that were AP + Pen, but never have I seen that attack hit a character with that defense. Didn't plan anything that way, just so far it hasn't happened.

[Teflon Billy]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

This a perfectly good way to run your game. However, if a player designs a character with hardened defenses he is obviously predicting some sort of encounter with attackst that otherwise circumvent non-hardened defenses. Requiring further definition or prioritization of how their specific use of hardened interacts in game when up against anti-hardened attacks does not seem unreasonable at all.

 

perfect example from source material:

 

Mr. Incredible.

 

If you've watched the DVD extra's it notes that he is impervious to being cut by a knife. It is therefore reasonable to say that he is then also impervious to bullets. Since his reaction to being sliced by the Omnidroid was one of shock I would also deduce that he probably has at least 1 level of hardened on his resistant defenses to deal with the otherwise commonplace AP bullets that normal crooks might have access to. Based on this, I would give the Omnidroid's attacks a minimum of 2 levels of AP or Penetrating in some combination. Deciding how Mr. Incredible's Hardened resistent defenses interact with that attack should be based on the background of his powers AND the omnidroids.

 

HM

How does your example in any way contradict what I was saying? If Mr. Incredible has at least 1 level of Hardened and the Omnidroid has at least 2 levels (of any combination of defense penetrating attacks, whether AP, Pen, or Ind) then the Omnidroid is going to get through Mr. Incredible's defenses with at least 1 of them.

 

TB

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Hardened Defenses question

 

How does your example in any way contradict what I was saying? If Mr. Incredible has at least 1 level of Hardened and the Omnidroid has at least 2 levels (of any combination of defense penetrating attacks, whether AP, Pen, or Ind) then the Omnidroid is going to get through Mr. Incredible's defenses with at least 1 of them.

 

TB

Your example seemed to suggest that you would allow the player to choose the which to stop at the time of the attack. This in turn implied that that choice is not absolute. That is, if a character with x1 Hardened defenses faces an attack with x1AP+x1Penetrating and choooses to use Hardened vs. Penetrating he can later choose to use Hardened vs. AP when faced with a similar AP+Inderect attack. I am only agreeing with the book rule requirement that Hardened's priorities must be defined at the time of purchase*.

 

If this is a missinterpretation on my part, I appologize.

 

*This raises a question about the significance of making such a choice for the hardened defenses provided by Combat Luck however.

 

Regarding the other comments, I understand the 'do what works in game' school of thought. However, I would not introduce a villain armed with an attack that had both AP and Penetrating unless they were up against a known 'hardened target' that had previously shown the ability to stop a single level of AP or Penetrating in the past.

 

 

HM