Graduated Figured Characteristics

[tesuji]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

I don't think they're more trouble than they're worth. I think that the people who complain about having to do "so much math" are whiners. The math in HERO does not go beyond anything you learned in the sixth grade - no algebra at all - just simple arithmetic.

 

Since you gave such a wonderful observation, let me toss my 2 cents in...

 

First, in between "whiners" and "the", i hope you realize you changed subjects.

 

"To(o) much math" is not a commentary on the LEVEL of the math, the complexity. It is a statement about the QUANTITY. In spite of many herotistaspropoganda pieces to the contrary, its not about algebra, its not about calculus, its not about differential equations or square roots... its about too much math... not too hard math.

 

I have no problem doing simple addition and subtraction... however i do not want to do a whole lot of it for simple things.

 

Do you shop at a grocery store where they make you add up your items at the register?

 

Would you shop routninely at a grocery store that did make YOU add up your totals?

 

Whats the problem? its not any HARDER than hero math. Why wouldn't you want to spend your time doing dozens of simple add and subtract in order to get your groceries?

 

You should have learned the math you need by sixth grade, geesh, whats the problem?

 

Now, the answer is that you would not shop at such a store unless they offered something you wanted that the other stores did not. Like say they did not charge sales tax or gave you a discount.

 

So, for those who see the math in hero working for them, who think the greater number of calculations produces some meaningful result, gives better balance say, produces better characters or more fun games... then they might be inclined to endure the greater QUANTITY of math to get the bennies.

 

However, to those who do NOT see the results as better, they just scratch their heads and wonder why you do all that work for "no gain."

 

HERo makes the character creation system in many ways a part of the "gaming." People expect and treat, some more openly than others, skill at "chargen" as a rewardable trait which entitles you to more potent characters. I have seen "why shouldn't my experience get me more out of the character." more than a few times.

 

For me thats the exact opposite approach i want. I want your experience with the character in play to give you the ability to make better choices, not your accounting skills in chargen to give you more plusses.

 

To those who think hero math works and produces bettwe results... all i got to say is...

 

official, published and confirmed as "preferred" by steve long "fighting array" allows for 24 CP you to spend actions to gain from 1-6 dex for CV purposes only which only work when you are within a certain distance of your buddy partner. 1-6 dex for 24 cp after a whole lotta math.

 

+6 dex (not 1-6 dex, +6 dex) costs 18 cp, works all the time for a lot more than just cv and requires no hulking up actions or no buddy.

 

Admittedly, i am often dense, but, i fail to see that my math efforts their added to my gaming experience there at all.

 

HERo math does not reach outside the book to some mystical "balance" source, maybe in a tibetan monastary, and find balance. It simulates balance when you dont look too closely because the comparative characters are both built using the same system. you dont need a lotta math to pretend to get balance. you dont need a lotta math to get better characters. you dont need a lotta math to get good gaming experiences.

 

you dont need a lotta math.

 

or, at least, I don't.

 

YMMV.

[Tech]

Originally posted by Gary Ciaramella

I wonder why it is that you applaud characters with stats that are a waste of points. I know that RPGs are about playing a role and not about power through superior accounting, but I just cannot bring myself to spend points without getting a return on the investment. And in my opinion, being able to say "Nyah, Nyah, I am smarter than you are!" because a character has a 12 Int when the other guy has an 11 Int is just not good enough.

 

So I agree that the graduated characteristic system is a good idea.... a shame it is not official.

 

I understand your point of view. My point was not on how much can I get out of the points for my character but rather, how close can I approximate the concept of my character in statistics. If I have a character who's just a little above the average Joe, he may well have a 11 or 12 INT. Sure, this doesn't give any benefits in terms of 9+INT/5, but that's ok. By the way, it does give benefits against Power Drains (I still have a positive INT or DEX), Mind Control/Telepathy (Sorry, you didn't get +20 on me), etc. Statistics higher than the usual 10, 13, 15, etc., make it that much harder to be Mind Controlled, Drained to zero, lose a CV due to Dex loss, hard to be Stunned and so on. There are definite values in having higher than 10, 13, etc., statistics, one being of course, character concept. I don't mind spending a point here and there to keep my concept.

 

If a GM were to say, spend 3 pts and you can go faster than all those people with Dex 23 or 24, and get the first punch in, would he? You bet! (I grab Mr. Fist and throw him. Aww, you say you don't have enough Running to come back to me? Too bad.) Simple, there's that 25 Dex. It's only a point Dex spread but it sure makes a difference, particularly since the majority of all Hero Games supervillains go with the 20, 23, 25 statistics.

 

If it bothers you to spend points like such, a suggestion is to make a general rule: Dexterity 11-15 gives Dex roll Base 9 + 3 (for being in 11-15 range) =12, 16-20 gives 9 + 4, 21-25 gives 9 + 5 and so on.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Zornwil said, "When Steve Long says figured characteristics are getting to be more trouble than they are worth, that's an interesting statement.."

 

When and where did Steve Long say that?

 

For the record:

I don't think they're more trouble than they're worth. I think that the people who complain about having to do "so much math" are whiners. The math in HERO does not go beyond anything you learned in the sixth grade - no algebra at all - just simple arithmetic.

I do occasionally have problems with the "granularity," but not so much that I'd want to drastically change the char cost structure.

The only real issues I have are:

* INT (8=12 in game terms, as previously mentioned)

* fights between slightly different normals (a guy with 11 STR should have a slight edge over a guy with 10 STR, all other thing being equal).

 

I have my own house rules to deal with the above two minor problems (which rarely come into play anyway).

 

Steve's comments are at

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3465

 

The issue is not math nor do I think I portrayed that in my post, though perhaps the confusion is where I said "mathematical rounding dilemma" but I intended to be clearer with the parenthetical comment about when to do it. Sorry if it was not clear.

[PhilFleischmann]

I certainly didn't mean to start a flame war about how much math we should be expected to do. Perhaps I've misinterpreted what we were talking about, but I get the feeling that many of the arguments and complaints and suggestions for improvement stem from a reluctance to do a little extra math. Maybe that's not the case here. Fine.

 

I like the HERO system because of its flexibility and the ease with which things can be balanced.* To achieve this benefit, I'm willing to do more math. If I wanted to, I could use a different system in which all the math is done for me, at the cost of having to select from a limited list of pre-packaged "classes" which may not quite match my character conception.

 

But I'm getting even farther off the subject now.

 

To get back on the subject, I use a house rule for skill rolls (only for background skills, usually Sciences, but sometimes PS's and KS's) that does provide some game-effect difference between an 8 INT and a 12 INT:

 

In some cases where I feel (as GM) that raw intelligence has more of an impact on a skill (in a particular situation) than the specific study or training in that skill, I modify the roll thusly:

 

Standard: 9+INT/5 (+ extra levels with the skill)

More INT: 8+INT/4 (+ extra levels with the skill)

Mostly INT: 8+INT/3 (+ extra levels with the skill)

 

This way, a person with a 10 INT has an 11- roll in all three cases, but someone with an 11 INT would have a 12- roll in the third case.

* Notice I said "can be" not "are guaranteed to be."