Graduated Figured Characteristics

[Gary]

One problem with Hero is that certain breakpoints for characteristics seem to be most efficient. For instance, con should always end in 3 or 8 for maximum efficiency. I was thinking of gradually giving figured characteristics instead of a big burst at the efficiency breakpoints.

 

For Str:

 

1 +1 stun

2 +1 PD

3 +1 stun

4 +1 Rec

5 +1 stun

6 +1 PD

7 +1 stun

8 +1 Rec

9 +1 stun

10 no bonus (except for the +1D6 damage)

 

For Con:

 

1 +1 stun +2 end

2 +1 ED +2 end

3 +1 stun +2 end

4 +1 Rec +2 end

5 +1 stun +2 end

6 +1 ED +2 end

7 +1 stun +2 end

8 +1 Rec +2 end

9 +1 stun +2 end

10 +2 end

 

For Dex:

 

1 +1 Dex rolls

2 +1 OCV or DCV

3 +1 OCV or DCV (must be the opposite of 2)

4 +1 Dex skill rolls

5 +1 OCV or DCV

6 +1 OCV or DCV (must be the opposite of 5)

7 +1 Dex rolls

8 +1 OCV or DCV

9 +1 OCV or DCV (must be the opposite of 8)

10 +1 Dex skill rolls

 

For Int:

 

1 +1 Perception with 1 sense

2 +1 Int skill rolls with up to 3 skills

3 +1 Int rolls (non skills or perception)

4 +1 Perception with all senses (not cumulative with 1)

5 +1 Int skill rolls with all int skills (not cumulative with 2)

 

I was thinking that this system could allow efficient characters with 21 con or 17 int or 22 dex instead of most characters having 23 con, 18 int, and 23 dex.

 

Thoughts?

[Chris Goodwin]

My thoughts: No offense, but.... is the current system really so broken that it needs this fix in particular?

[ShadowRaptor]

I don't think its broken but it does alleviate the characters from basically having the same stats all the time for the same effectiveness.

 

Under the normal rules there really is no reason to have anything different than a 23 DEX, 23 CON, and 18 INT. If you can pay for the points that is.

[Gary]

Originally posted by archer

My thoughts: No offense, but.... is the current system really so broken that it needs this fix in particular?

 

It's not broken but in my gaming career, I've found virtually every PC character to have 18, 23, 28, or 33 con. Consider that going from 21 to 22 con gives you 1 pt in figured characteristics, but going from 22 to 23 gives you 5 pts in figured characteristics. A player would have to be insane to buy a 22 con. At least with spreading out the figureds, you would get a far broader range of characteristics for PC's. Players could buy any characteristic level and not worry about wasting points or maximizing efficiency.

[Old Man]

I agree that the current system is very granular and that it would be better if every stat point counted--but there's got to be a method that doesn't require a chart like this. I know character creation in Hero isn't supposed to be simple, but come on.

[Talon]

Originally posted by Old Man

I agree that the current system is very granular and that it would be better if every stat point counted--but there's got to be a method that doesn't require a chart like this.

 

There is -- get rid of the figured characteristic formulae and just buy each stat on its own.

[DrSavant]

It Figures- Raping the system

 

First of all, I am glad that you noticed this problem.

BUT, it is not so much a flaw in the system as it a flaw

in the players/GM. MUNCHKINISIM.

 

If you can learn to recognize this in your players and

yourself, then hopefully it can be overcome.

Some signs of MUNCHKINISM:

STR/CON ending in an odd number for +1 to stun

EGO 11 for +1 ECV, for a non mentalist

INT ending in 3/8 for +1 Perception roll

 

The main "cure" for MUNCHKINISM is;

Maturity and Creativity.

 

Maturity- For not trying to get "over on the system"

***For realizing that heroes are MUCH MORE

then numbers (This is IMPORTANT)

Creativity- For focusing on what characters are really

about !!

[Chris Goodwin]

Read John Kim: http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/herosystem/essays/breakpoints.html

[Ron]

Gary,

 

I agree with you that HERO's characteristics rules, although not broken, could benefit from a revision. As a matter of fact, this is one of the few points (perhaps the only one) in which I would prefer to see a major revision of the rules. Dr. Savant argues that this is only a problem with munchkin players. I disagree. HERO's character generation is point based and thus there is no good reason why a player would expend points in something which would give him no return. There is not a problem of maturity, but rather of the existence of useless characteristics value steps.

[Chris Goodwin]

Let me take back my first statement on this thread.

 

Does the change make it more fun for you? If the answer is yes, then go for it!

 

That's what everything boils down to at the core.

[nharwell]

Originally posted by archer

Read John Kim: http://www.darkshire.org/~jhkim/rpg/herosystem/essays/breakpoints.html

 

Thanks for the link. Although I dropped COM long ago, I never considered getting rid of INT. John's solution actually fixes most of my complaints about the lack of granularity in Hero System stats....

[nharwell]

Re: It Figures- Raping the system

 

Originally posted by DrSavant

First of all, I am glad that you noticed this problem.

BUT, it is not so much a flaw in the system as it a flaw

in the players/GM. MUNCHKINISIM.

 

If you can learn to recognize this in your players and

yourself, then hopefully it can be overcome.

Some signs of MUNCHKINISM:

STR/CON ending in an odd number for +1 to stun

EGO 11 for +1 ECV, for a non mentalist

INT ending in 3/8 for +1 Perception roll

 

The main "cure" for MUNCHKINISM is;

Maturity and Creativity.

 

Maturity- For not trying to get "over on the system"

***For realizing that heroes are MUCH MORE

then numbers (This is IMPORTANT)

Creativity- For focusing on what characters are really

about !!

 

I tried to restrain myself, but I feel obligated to reply to this condescending post. If you truly feel this way, then why run or play with a point-based system like Hero at all? Simply let players chooses their abilties and powers. After all, if they are "real roleplayers", they'll make balanced characters!

 

A fundamental assumption of the Hero System is that points are generally equal -- points in one ability should be roughly as useful (in game, not necessarily in combat) as the same points in another. Players aren't "munchkins" for making effective characters by using the rules as they are written...

[Gary]

Re: It Figures- Raping the system

 

Originally posted by DrSavant

First of all, I am glad that you noticed this problem.

BUT, it is not so much a flaw in the system as it a flaw

in the players/GM. MUNCHKINISIM.

 

If you can learn to recognize this in your players and

yourself, then hopefully it can be overcome.

Some signs of MUNCHKINISM:

STR/CON ending in an odd number for +1 to stun

EGO 11 for +1 ECV, for a non mentalist

INT ending in 3/8 for +1 Perception roll

 

The main "cure" for MUNCHKINISM is;

Maturity and Creativity.

 

Maturity- For not trying to get "over on the system"

***For realizing that heroes are MUCH MORE

then numbers (This is IMPORTANT)

Creativity- For focusing on what characters are really

about !!

 

Have you ever built a PC character with a 22 str, 22 con, or 17 int?

[Gary]

Originally posted by Old Man

I agree that the current system is very granular and that it would be better if every stat point counted--but there's got to be a method that doesn't require a chart like this. I know character creation in Hero isn't supposed to be simple, but come on.

 

My system isn't very complex at all. Every 10 pts of str or con gets you what you would get normally. You would only use the chart for the ones digit. My system for int simply means that each point gives you a benefit rather than no benefit for the first 4 pts, and then full benefits at the 5th pt.

[Trebuchet]

It's an interesting idea, Gary, but I think it's a solution to a non-existent problem. There is already a bonus for "sub-optimal" STR and CON: The character gets both additional figured characteristics (19 STR/2= 10 STUN vs 9 STUN for 18 STR; ditto for CON.), but a character with 1 higher CON is harder to Stun. I ran a brick with 19 CON for years.

 

Higher DEX means you go first in a Phase; no small bonus. I've seen plenty of martial artists with DEX 30 just so they could beat those cost effective 28 and 29 DEXers.

 

INT is the only thing that doesn't give such bonuses, but in all reality INT doesn't really get much direct use. Your method gives bonuses for much less than just buying skill levels in a INT-based Skill or with PER roll.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

It's an interesting idea, Gary, but I think it's a solution to a non-existent problem. There is already a bonus for "sub-optimal" STR and CON: The character gets both additional figured characteristics (19 STR/2= 10 STUN vs 9 STUN for 18 STR; ditto for CON.), but a character with 1 higher CON is harder to Stun. I ran a brick with 19 CON for years.

 

Have you ever bought someone with a 22 con? Or a 22 str? Or a 17 int? There is such a vast difference between 22 con and 23 con that no PC would ever buy 22 con.

 

Originally posted by Trebuchet

Higher DEX means you go first in a Phase; no small bonus. I've seen plenty of martial artists with DEX 30 just so they could beat those cost effective 28 and 29 DEXers.

 

Have you seen any with a 31 dex? Or a 22 dex?

 

 

Originally posted by Trebuchet

INT is the only thing that doesn't give such bonuses, but in all reality INT doesn't really get much direct use. Your method gives bonuses for much less than just buying skill levels in a INT-based Skill or with PER roll.

 

Int already gives huge bonuses for it's cost. +1 int rolls, +1 int skill rolls, and +1 perception rolls for 5 pts. About 10 pts of value for 5 pts. I'm just spreading out the bonuses so that each +1 int gives about 2 pts of effectiveness rather than the current system where 4 pts of int gives nothing, but that 5th pt gives the full 10 pts of effectiveness.

[Lord Liaden]

Gary, have you considered what this increased granularity will do to tracking the effects of Adjustment Powers?

 

BTW, I have played and GM'd players with characters who have "inefficient" numbers of Characteristics. Sometimes it's to get a small advantage, especially with DEX: 19, 25 and 28 have not been uncommon. Other times it's just been to have something different from the norm, because we liked the variety. We may be an atypical group.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Gary, have you considered what this increased granularity will do to tracking the effects of Adjustment Powers?

 

BTW, I have played and GM'd players with characters who have "inefficient" numbers of Characteristics. Sometimes it's to get a small advantage, especially with DEX: 19, 25 and 28 have not been uncommon. Other times it's just been to have something different from the norm, because we liked the variety. We may be an atypical group.

 

It shouldn't affect adjustment powers vs str and con since adjustment powers don't affect figured characteristics anyway. It'll affect dex and int drains, but I'm sure the effect should be manageable.

 

I've never seen a PC with a 19 or 25 dex, unless he was spending xp and didn't have quite enough to get to 20 or 26. In any event, that dex gets bought up after 1 more session. I think you're an atypical group. That extra +1 OCV and +1 DCV is just too tempting for a net 2 extra points.

[Ron]

Another point against the current characteristics system is that it is inelegant. A major issue in a such beautifully designed game.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Re: It Figures- Raping the system

 

Originally posted by Gary

Have you ever built a PC character with a 22 str, 22 con, or 17 int?

Yes. I run a Space: 1889 game with the characters translated into Hero for skill and combat resolutions. Space: 1889 has a stat range of 1-6 (3 is about average), so my conversion makes them 5-20 at intervals of 3 --- stat*3 + 2.

[Tech]

As I read the posts on this, I kept hearing "I've never seen a PC character with a 25 DEX, 17 INT..." etc. Let me change that so at least you can't say you've never heard of it.

 

A great deal of the PC characters in the campaign I'm in do indeed have those odd characteristics, some of those being: 24 Con (1 character), 22 Dex (2 or 3), 25 Dex (several), 17 Ego (1 character), 36 Con (1 character), 11/12/14/17/19 Com (many), 11/12/14 Int (several characters). These are just some that I can think of off the top of my head. Many villains have these kind of stats, too. Yes, there are the 10, 15, 20, 25, etc., statistics as well as the 13, 18, 23, 28, etc., but I run with a fine group that doesn't mind taking the extra time to not fall into the usual pattern. They're simply tired of the many cost-effecient stats shown in many of the Enemies books and go the extra mile to give that odd stat. It makes them stand out and if nothing else, a 24 Con takes 1 more point before getting Stunned than a 23 Con. I'm satisfied with the system. It's creating a concept, not a bunch of statistics that an experienced player does that a GM really appreciates.

[tesuji]

The biggest problem i have along these lines is that this high spot and low spots characteristics system is one of the most egregious elements of the "learning curve" issue with hero... where a veteran and a novice will build "the same character" but the veterans character with the same total points will be far more potent.

 

A nvice is likely to have a 19 dex or a 22 or not recognize the "many fronts" benefits of 23 vs 18 etc... he is not going to be as adept at milking the round offs and the break points. its going to show and in a big way.

 

granularity is fine as long as it serves a purpose.

 

The basis of the hero system or any point buy system is "the points matter" and if "+1 more constitution" costs 2 irregardless of whether it is being applied to 21 con or 23 con, then it should give the same benefit back.

[Tech]

As oft as said, if you want to change something in your campaign, change it. Play fast and loose with the rules. If you feel STR should be 2 pts for each 1, do it. However, five editions later, I don't think STR or any other characteristic will be changing. No game system is perfect and this is no exception. Make that change for your campaign. It is, after all, a game to be played for fun for both you and the players. If you want to change something, go ahead.

[Gary]

Originally posted by Tech

As I read the posts on this, I kept hearing "I've never seen a PC character with a 25 DEX, 17 INT..." etc. Let me change that so at least you can't say you've never heard of it.

 

A great deal of the PC characters in the campaign I'm in do indeed have those odd characteristics, some of those being: 24 Con (1 character), 22 Dex (2 or 3), 25 Dex (several), 17 Ego (1 character), 36 Con (1 character), 11/12/14/17/19 Com (many), 11/12/14 Int (several characters). These are just some that I can think of off the top of my head. Many villains have these kind of stats, too. Yes, there are the 10, 15, 20, 25, etc., statistics as well as the 13, 18, 23, 28, etc., but I run with a fine group that doesn't mind taking the extra time to not fall into the usual pattern. They're simply tired of the many cost-effecient stats shown in many of the Enemies books and go the extra mile to give that odd stat. It makes them stand out and if nothing else, a 24 Con takes 1 more point before getting Stunned than a 23 Con. I'm satisfied with the system. It's creating a concept, not a bunch of statistics that an experienced player does that a GM really appreciates.

 

I applaud the PC characters with 12 int, 22 dex, or 25 dex. However, the game system punishes them for purchasing those values. A character with 13 int, 23 dex, or 26 dex gets much more bang for the buck. There's a minor problem with the system when characters get punished for trying to stay within conception.

 

With graduated figured characteristics, you can purchase any stat level and not worry about being punished by the system.

[Old Man]

You could also rule that the characters cannot increase any one stat by more than 1 pt between sessions.