In a Bind

[Labrat]

Hey y'all,

What's the best way to simulate breaking out of ropes that were used for the ol' 'bind your hands behind a chair, bind your feet as well' tactic? Is this covered in any of the books anywhere?

 

Since the rope that I planned on using was 2 DEF/2 BOD, I was going to treat it just like an entangle (Hands Only) and require a pure STR roll to defeat... but then I got to thinking that knots might would probably add BOD to that Entangle due to density, and in turn that might also add DEF. Would increasing the ropes to a 3 DEF/3 BOD due to the knots be out of the question?

 

Gracias

Ronaldo

[Doc Democracy]

Re: In a Bind

 

Since the rope that I planned on using was 2 DEF/2 BOD' date=' I was going to treat it just like an entangle (Hands Only) and require a pure STR roll to defeat... but then I got to thinking that knots might would probably add BOD to that Entangle due to density, and in turn that might also add DEF. Would increasing the ropes to a 3 DEF/3 BOD due to the knots be out of the question?[/quote']

 

It depends on how easy you want people to be able to bust out of the ropes.

 

With a 10 STR, in a supers game someone could burst out of the 2 DEF/2 BODY ropes in a phase (10 STR pushed for 2D6 gives 4D6, averaging 4 BODY) and would break out of the 3 DEF/3 BODY in 3 phases.

 

Even in a heroic game the 2/2 ropes look a bit weeny. I would be tempted to go 5/1 for a supers game - the ropes will hold tight until a particular str total is reached and then will snap like a paper chain! I might settle for 4/1 for a heroic game.

 

You could also decide that a lot of wriggling would let someone get out of the ropes regardless of their strength. That is more like 0 DEF with enough BODY to reflect the amount of time you want them kept there for...

 

The beauty of HERO is that you can decide that you want STR 10 characters to be effectively tied for ever - make the DEF 8 and they have no chance at all of escaping (a pushed 4D6 will score a maximum of 8 BODY). Once you know what you want then use the mechanics to decide what the defences have to be.

 

 

Doc

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: In a Bind

 

I remember i needed a 30 str at one point when i was tied to a stake being burned as a witch (they were right, but that didn't mean i was gonna stick around to be burned). In retrospect i should have teleported out of there, but it wasn't as cool...

[zornwil]

Re: In a Bind

 

I would say Escape Artist or Contortionist would be the thing to use, preferably. PS - these are skills in the book, wait, only Contortionist is, Escape Artist is no more (in one of the more reprehensible changes, IMHO)

[TheEmerged]

Re: In a Bind

 

Like a lot of things in HERO, there's more than one way to skin this cat. One I have used in the past was to allow a Contortionist roll against appropriate bindings/entangles to add 1d6 STR damage for every 2 points the roll was made by.

 

Example: Sting is bound by 12 DEF 6 BODY megacuffs, and has 60 STR and a 14- Contortionist skill. Normally he'd just have 12d6 to roll each phase, meaning he'd need a good roll or pushing to do BODY damage. However, if he makes his Contortionist roll he does 13d6 -- if he rolls a 12 he does 14d6, if he rolls a 10 he does 15d6, and so on.

[Labrat]

Re: In a Bind

 

Oops, mea culpa. It's for a Heroic level game (FH).

 

My friends and I used to tie each other up to clothesline poles in our backyards for fun just to see if you could get out in fifteen minutes. Now, granted, we were only in our early teens, but there always seemed to be a way to get out with enough time...

 

That aside, I appreciate the input. These are hemp ropes as listed in FH, so that's where I got the 2 DEF/2 BOD from. What I'm really asking is this: would knots add to BOD, DEF, both or neither? Probably DEF now that I find myself agreeing with the higher DEF/lower BOD approach listed above by Doc Democracy.

 

Thanks guys!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: In a Bind

 

You might want to look at it somewhat like this....

Figure out the breaking strength of whatever rope you want (you can probably google up some good info here). Go with a DEF for the rope based on the STR chart enrty for the closest weight (generally rounding up...most ropes have at least 125% of the listed capacity for saftey reasons).

 

Then figure that this represents a single length of rope at 1 Body.

Add body to taste to simulate additional turns, wraps, knots and the like.

Perhaps adding additional based on a skill roll or dex roll

 

So a Japaneese Shibari expert with an 18 or less skill roll ties someones hands behind their back. Rather than specifying all the various intricate turns, twists, cross ties and tightening turns (fraps), the GM makes him make a skill roll and adds +1 body per 2 the roll is made by. Using 750 lb test mountain climbing rope (4 def) he makes the roll by 8. His victim is now looking at 4 DEF, 5 BODY ropes securing his hands. Life sucks.

Contortionists should be able to bypass a lot of this... I'd either give them a skill vs skill to get loose, give them a STR bonus based on their roll, or perhaps even allow them to do "NND Body" to the ropes, because they well might be able to wiggle out no matter what.

 

Additionally, for a heroic game, a couple other effects to think about.

A millitary hog tie is essentially a Choke Hold that is Triggered when someone tries to struggle with his bonds.

Any brute strength attempt (as opposed to using contortionist skill) to break loose from ropework is likely to inflict some damage on the victim. Easiest way to handle this is like an Entangle with Backlash. This is WAY more aimed at heroic level.

Taking Extra time should give thew usual bonus to trying to break out.... Most ropework can eventually be worked loose with enough time.

Deliberately overtight ropes can cut off circulation, effectively causing an NND attack to any bound limbs. Try using the Numbing Rules from UMA to simulate this. This can also happen to a character who is trying to struggle loose, as often the only way to get enough slack to escape involves deliberately making part of the rope tighter so as to make the rest loose. An excellent opportunity to check Unluck.

Have fun.

[prestidigitator]

Re: In a Bind

 

I would say Escape Artist or Contortionist would be the thing to use' date=' preferably. PS - these are skills in the book, wait, only Contortionist is, Escape Artist is no more (in one of the more reprehensible changes, IMHO)[/quote']

WHAT?!?!?!?!? Did I completely miss this? No Escape Artist?!? Arrrrggg!!!

[Labrat]

Re: In a Bind

 

You might want to look at it somewhat like this....

Figure out the breaking strength of whatever rope you want (you can probably google up some good info here). Go with a DEF for the rope based on the STR chart enrty for the closest weight (generally rounding up...most ropes have at least 125% of the listed capacity for saftey reasons).

 

Then figure that this represents a single length of rope at 1 Body.

Add body to taste to simulate additional turns, wraps, knots and the like.

Perhaps adding additional based on a skill roll or dex roll

 

So a Japaneese Shibari expert with an 18 or less skill roll ties someones hands behind their back. Rather than specifying all the various intricate turns, twists, cross ties and tightening turns (fraps), the GM makes him make a skill roll and adds +1 body per 2 the roll is made by. Using 750 lb test mountain climbing rope (4 def) he makes the roll by 8. His victim is now looking at 4 DEF, 5 BODY ropes securing his hands. Life sucks.

Contortionists should be able to bypass a lot of this... I'd either give them a skill vs skill to get loose, give them a STR bonus based on their roll, or perhaps even allow them to do "NND Body" to the ropes, because they well might be able to wiggle out no matter what.

 

Additionally, for a heroic game, a couple other effects to think about.

A millitary hog tie is essentially a Choke Hold that is Triggered when someone tries to struggle with his bonds.

Any brute strength attempt (as opposed to using contortionist skill) to break loose from ropework is likely to inflict some damage on the victim. Easiest way to handle this is like an Entangle with Backlash. This is WAY more aimed at heroic level.

Taking Extra time should give thew usual bonus to trying to break out.... Most ropework can eventually be worked loose with enough time.

Deliberately overtight ropes can cut off circulation, effectively causing an NND attack to any bound limbs. Try using the Numbing Rules from UMA to simulate this. This can also happen to a character who is trying to struggle loose, as often the only way to get enough slack to escape involves deliberately making part of the rope tighter so as to make the rest loose. An excellent opportunity to check Unluck.

Have fun.

 

Now that's good stuff! Way to apply that KS: Knot-tying, ANB.

[zornwil]

Re: In a Bind

 

WHAT?!?!?!?!? Did I completely miss this? No Escape Artist?!? Arrrrggg!!!

I think the logic was that Contortionist covered the significant part and was more specific, but I think it would have been better to have both. Or at least put Escape Artist in honorory mention in a PS example!!!

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: In a Bind

 

I think the logic was that Contortionist covered the significant part and was more specific' date=' but I think it would have been better to have both. Or at least put Escape Artist in honorory mention in a PS example!!![/quote']

 

I'm inclined to say you're right, it works better as a PS, complemamtary to Contortionist.

A real serious Houdini type could also take an Anaylze skill for bonds and restraints and the like.

[zornwil]

Re: In a Bind

 

Well, see, that's where in practice I beg to differ, and would really like to have seen Escape Artist with the muscle control, lock-picking, breathing, and all that rolled into one. Why? Because it supports heroic fiction, that's all, otherwise it sort of breaks HERO standards, but HERO is there to simulate heroic fiction.

 

Or at least offer a freaking package deal!

 

signed, unusually irritated by this little thing... I know, I know

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: In a Bind

 

I'm inclined to say you're right, it works better as a PS, complemamtary to Contortionist.

A real serious Houdini type could also take an Anaylze skill for bonds and restraints and the like.

 

I just think it's a bad idea for a character to put more than a few points into an "escaping from bonds" sort of ability, and buying Analyze just for that purpose.... Most of the time, the heroes never get captured. How often does it happen, maybe once per campaign? Maybe twice? Following character concept is one thing, but paying good Character Points for a nigh-useless ability is silly.

 

After all, if they DIDN'T manage to escape from their bonds, would they be killed anyway?

 

Probably not. Most GMs won't allow a character to die arbitrarily as part of the plot. They could be severely inconvenienced, however....

[prestidigitator]

Re: In a Bind

 

I guess I just feel that escaping bonds and holds doesn't require being able to contort your body, although the latter can certainly be helpful. There are other SFX for it: knowing weak points, pressure points, using, "stage magic," in a fictional but non-superheroic sense, having the wits to prepare yourself before capture such that it will be easier to escape (taking a deep breath, tensing muscles, putting chewing gum in the lock, etc.). So I don't think Escape Artist should be wholly shoved into Contortionist.

 

On the other hand, Contortionist might allow you to do things Escape Artist wouldn't: getting into tight spaces or through small/oddly shaped openings, manipulating things with your feet when you are tied to a chair, fitting a baseball in your...mouth, etc.

 

Should the two be different Skills? I think so. Which should be covered by an Agility Skill and which by a PS? Well, how much is each Skill likely to be used if taken by itself? Mmm...well, I wouldn't want Escape Artist to be relegated to a PS; there are even places such as Grabs and Entangles where the system specifically calls out appropriate mechanical uses that are appropriate for it. Contortionist? I could live with it being a PS, I suppose, but I lean toward it being its own Skill as well.

[zornwil]

Re: In a Bind

 

Excellent points, Prestidigitator. Of course I'm an argument looking for an excuse on this one as it's more an "old school passion" issue to me, but I think your argument holds water objectively. The only caveat might be that it might be better, as much as these are used, to lump them together only for limiting the # of skills and keeping them broad, but that's "simply" a scope issue re skills in general, then.