Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

i've also never had a problem with it which is why i've never heard the term before

[RDU Neil]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

I guess it's just one of those things that either clicks with you or doesn't. I never had a problem with it but I can see how in a complex string of damage that it can be confusing.

 

Oh it clicked... just not with everyone. Also... there are really four levels.

 

Take stun, but still conscious and not CON Stunned.

 

CON stunned, but not unconscious.

 

0 to -10 Stun... stunned, but recover immediately (unless also CON stunned).

 

-11 Stun or greater... unconscious (out for a couple rounds, at least).

 

That was how we interpreted things in the past... because Stun and stunned were different and the varying levels of "unconscious" needed different terms... etc.

 

CON stunned has a very clear and distinct (if redundant) meaning.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

Neil, i think once you hit 0 stun you are out and not CON stunned, and the condition of CON stunned goes away, so you don't need to spend a phase recovering from it

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

Neil' date=' i think once you hit 0 stun you are out and not CON stunned, and the condition of CON stunned goes away, so you don't need to spend a phase recovering from it[/quote']

 

I dunno... theoretically, there'd be no reason for the CON Stun to go away just because your STUN dropped to 0. It's arbitrary to look at it that way -- which is fine, I'm just saying.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

Neil' date=' i think once you hit 0 stun you are out and not CON stunned, and the condition of CON stunned goes away, so you don't need to spend a phase recovering from it[/quote']

 

umm, I don't think so. If the attack that cause you to be con stunned also dropped you to zero con AND you were still not unconcious due to some reason (perhapse a power like say the kind a zombie might have) then you would stay con stunned until you recovered. It's the being unconcious that would reset it I think. Not having my book at hand and being at work I can't look it up but...that would make sense to me.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

When your STUN reaches 0 you are Knocked Out, not stunned. There is a difference between barely knocked out and knocked out, which is the 0 to -10 level, and that is described as "it's more like he's deeply Stunned". Poor choice of words, but it is under the Knocked Out section... Stunning is a different section.

 

I've always said, "Barely knocked out, but you can make a PER roll or groan a few words if necessary". At this level, you will lose 1-3 phases in taking a recovery which is why the fact you may have been Stunned is irrelevant.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

umm' date=' I don't think so. If the attack that cause you to be con stunned also dropped you to zero con AND you were still not unconcious due to some reason (perhapse a power like say the kind a zombie might have) then you would stay con stunned until you recovered.[/quote']

 

Technically, it's the KO that matters, and the Stunning goes away, even at 0 STUN. I would like to see a power like you describe - all the ones I can imagine involve limited STUN, in which case the character isn't at 0 or less STUN. Not to mention most undead don't take STUN.

[Vengeance]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

Neil' date=' i think once you hit 0 stun you are out and not CON stunned, and the condition of CON stunned goes away, so you don't need to spend a phase recovering from it[/quote']

You may find a rule in one of the hero books somewhere that states the above rule is true, but trust me on this one, in the RDU universe (long time player) if you take enough damage to be CON stunned and knocked unconscious (below 0 stun), it will take 2 turns to recover. Neil will change some things in the Hero Games system (toss out the speed chart, etc...), but I guarantee this rule will never change.

 

We use the extra turn from getting CON stunned and knocked unconscious from the same blow too much in the game (grab an extra recovery, hit the foe one more time to make sure they don't get up again, etc...) for it to go away. Besides, for me at least, one of the great gaming moments each round is when you take that big hit that's going to put you under and you start doing the quick calculations to see just how boned you are going to be in the aftermath. Trust me, there is a big difference between:

 

"OK, after defenses I took 22 from that punch, which takes me down to -3. But I'm not CON stunned, and my DEX is higher than his, so I'll recover first and declare I am going to abort to dodge..."

 

and:

 

"OK, after defenses I took 26 from that punch, which takes me down to -7. Unfortunately, my CON is 24, so I'm CON stunned. As I look groggily up from the ground, what do I see? Oh, I see his fist flashing down towards my crumpled form? OK, I'll go get the pizza."

[zornwil]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

You may find a rule in one of the hero books somewhere that states the above rule is true, but trust me on this one, in the RDU universe (long time player) if you take enough damage to be CON stunned and knocked unconscious (below 0 stun), it will take 2 turns to recover. Neil will change some things in the Hero Games system (toss out the speed chart, etc...), but I guarantee this rule will never change.

 

We use the extra turn from getting CON stunned and knocked unconscious from the same blow too much in the game (grab an extra recovery, hit the foe one more time to make sure they don't get up again, etc...) for it to go away. Besides, for me at least, one of the great gaming moments each round is when you take that big hit that's going to put you under and you start doing the quick calculations to see just how boned you are going to be in the aftermath. Trust me, there is a big difference between:

 

"OK, after defenses I took 22 from that punch, which takes me down to -3. But I'm not CON stunned, and my DEX is higher than his, so I'll recover first and declare I am going to abort to dodge..."

 

and:

 

"OK, after defenses I took 26 from that punch, which takes me down to -7. Unfortunately, my CON is 24, so I'm CON stunned. As I look groggily up from the ground, what do I see? Oh, I see his fist flashing down towards my crumpled form? OK, I'll go get the pizza."

It's the case in 5th now (I just checked) that the first phase after being Stunned and Knocked Out, your recovery counts against both, or, as the book puts it, you are automatically un-Stunned if you recover from being Knocked Out, as Roy indicates. Which, to be honest, I didn't know, I think this is recent, isn't it? I believe RDU Neil's way is the way it's been up through at 4th. I don't have 4th handy.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

However, if you are KO'd, you get your recovery at the end of the next segment in which you have a phase. So even if your DEX is 50, and you share the next phase with someone they get to go first. So, they can either take a recovery or use the opportunity to make an attack vs. DCV 0 (if adjacent) and 1/2 hit location and x2 STUN. If you take any damage, the recovery is negated.

 

I appreciate the flow that RDU has created, but I think it is unnecessary - the system already does it.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

yay! now I don't have to wait to get home to re-read the section, thnx.

 

My grasp of some of the combat stuff is still a bit fuzzy...not too much experience with the system yet....

 

mmm tasty word that "yet"

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

Well, the actual reasoning on Body is the same. Body Modifier after defenses.

 

The only difference is that the Stun Modifier is applied after defenses for Normal Attacks.

 

Sorry, I meant Stun, not Body. And thanks for the explanation; I get it now. I'm still not sure I *like* it, but that's my problem.

 

If you wanted to eliminate the odd-ball Killing Damage DCs, you could just do damage using Normal Dice defined as killing (meaning only resistant defenses would apply) - might actually make learning the game easier for some people.

Now I'm in crazy talk land and you probably should have stopped reading 2 paragraphs ago (if that).

 

OK, let's talk crazy.

 

I've done this: use normal dice for killing attacks, but apply defenses as per killing attack. Particularly for demos & con games, it makes for one less thing to teach and simplifies things considerably. The results are so similar that it kinda begs the question why we need two different types of dice in the first place...

 

 

bigdamnhero

Well, my days of not taking you serious are certainly coming to a middle.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

"OK' date=' after defenses I took 26 from that punch, which takes me down to -7. Unfortunately, my CON is 24, so I'm CON stunned. As I look groggily up from the ground, what do I see? Oh, I see his fist flashing down towards my crumpled form? OK, I'll go get the pizza."[/quote']

 

Actually, that pretty accurately simulates the last fight I was in. Well, except for the pizza part.

 

bigdamnhero

"There's no such thing as Silicon Heaven."

"Then where do all the calculators go?"

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

umm' date=' I don't think so. If the attack that cause you to be con stunned also dropped you to zero con AND you were still not unconcious due to some reason (perhapse a power like say the kind a zombie might have) then you would stay con stunned until you recovered. It's the being unconcious that would reset it I think. Not having my book at hand and being at work I can't look it up but...that would make sense to me.[/quote']

 

pg. 411, a character who's stun total is reduced to zero or below is knocked out (paraphrased)...a character who's both stunned and knocked out by the same attack begins taking recoveries in his next full phase; he does not have to spend a phase recovering from being stunned"pg 412

 

but how ever people choose to run their games is their choice

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

pg. 411, a character who's stun total is reduced to zero or below is knocked out (paraphrased)...a character who's both stunned and knocked out by the same attack begins taking recoveries in his next full phase; he does not have to spend a phase recovering from being stunned"pg 412

 

but how ever people choose to run their games is their choice

 

if you read up you'd notice I already conceeded that

 

thought process wise it makes sense that you are still stunned when you come out of unconciousness, but the mechanics take care of that for me anyway, even though you don't call it that.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

However, if you are KO'd, you get your recovery at the end of the next segment in which you have a phase. So even if your DEX is 50, and you share the next phase with someone they get to go first. So, they can either take a recovery or use the opportunity to make an attack vs. DCV 0 (if adjacent) and 1/2 hit location and x2 STUN. If you take any damage, the recovery is negated.

 

I appreciate the flow that RDU has created, but I think it is unnecessary - the system already does it.

 

We don't use the SPD chart in our games... so the flow created comes off the initiative system we use.

 

Plus, if there was a change in 5th, I'm pretty sure that (as Zornwil points out) that previous to 5th you had to spend an action to small-r recover from being CON stunned before you got your action to BIG-R Recover. I've continued that and have no need to change it.

[zornwil]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

However, if you are KO'd, you get your recovery at the end of the next segment in which you have a phase. So even if your DEX is 50, and you share the next phase with someone they get to go first. So, they can either take a recovery or use the opportunity to make an attack vs. DCV 0 (if adjacent) and 1/2 hit location and x2 STUN. If you take any damage, the recovery is negated.

 

I appreciate the flow that RDU has created, but I think it is unnecessary - the system already does it.

I let people take recoveries even with damage, I find it's just too hard to get up otherwise.

[zornwil]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

We don't use the SPD chart in our games... so the flow created comes off the initiative system we use.

 

Plus, if there was a change in 5th, I'm pretty sure that (as Zornwil points out) that previous to 5th you had to spend an action to small-r recover from being CON stunned before you got your action to BIG-R Recover. I've continued that and have no need to change it.

Our group's been doing it that way, but I'm going to announce we'll "go 5th", unless, of course, there's an objection in which case we'll discuss it. For my taste, I like 5th's ruling better, and I used to do it that way back in 4th day, actually, and I only went with the way this group does it simply because of inertia. If they do object, it's not that big a deal to me, but would want to know why.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

if you read up you'd notice I already conceeded that

 

sorry didn't read that, must have skipped it

[Sean Waters]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

1. It would almost be worth buying 6th edition if the only change was to make 'Stunned' into 'Staggered'/'Dazed' or whatever, just so we could avoid all this 'CON stunned' business.

 

2. Back to the original question, the answer is that you deduct defences BEFORE multiplying for hit location EXCEPT when applying stun from killing attacks as this is worked out as the multiplier to BODY to calculate STUN in the first place rather than a multiplier to the (taken) damage. I'm sure this has been pointed out, I'm just bringing it together.

 

What this means is that you can get some very odd results - but then that is going to drag in the whole 'are killing attacks broken' thing, and this thread will run to several hunder posts.

 

Example. Average 4d6KA/12d6NA hit against the head of an opponent with 25 resistant pd. Not unreasonable for a superhero game.

 

1. Killing attack does (on average) 14 BODY, so it does 70 STUN and 45 STUN gets through (and no BODY). On an 'average hit' without locations the killing attack would have done 29 STUN and so only 4 STUN would have gotten through (and no BODY).

 

2. Normal attack does (on average) 42 STUN and 12 BODY so 17 STUN gets through, doubled to 34, and again, no BODY. On an average hit without locations, the attack would have done (42-25) = 17 STUN.

 

This method, and I conceed it is difficult to see how to do it otherwise in the circumstances, means that the effect of Killing STUN is multiplied disproportionately, making, for instance, High Shots, which contain all the 'good' multipliers, only hands and arms for bad ones at only -2 OCV an excellent bet for the killing attack merchant.

 

I have to say I do resent Killing Attacks being used as STUN damage generators, and this rule does seem to encourage that trend further.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

But, if you multiplied it by 3 and then treated the STUN in the same manner as Normal STUN you get the exact same amount. 14 x 3 = 42 - 25 PD = 17 x 2 (head) = 34 STUN. And it still does more BODY.

 

I think this is how I will do it from now on. That's one less column I need on my armor block of the charsheet.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

But, if you multiplied it by 3 and then treated the STUN in the same manner as Normal STUN you get the exact same amount. 14 x 3 = 42 - 25 PD = 17 x 2 (head) = 34 STUN. And it still does more BODY.

 

I think this is how I will do it from now on. That's one less column I need on my armor block of the charsheet.

 

 

Indeedy, although the actual multiplier for 'average' killing stun should be 2 2/3, that is a far trickier number to apply on the fly. I think your solution is a good one though as it addresses some of the wilder excesses of the system.

 

In fact if you were prepared to make the multiplier the same for the stomach and the vitals (as it is for normal stun) you could get rid of the BODYx column as well without, I'd have thought, upsetting anyone particularly.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

Nah, I like the BODYx. Vitals is useful to have separate. I'd almost like to make 12-13 Abdomen (and treated like stomach), but give a 5 in 6 chance that any hit to location 12 is vitals (same probability, but I'd prefer a 3 in 6). Make the base location -6 OCV and Vitals still -8. That way, armor covering 10-12 would protect the vitals, leaving your lower abdomen exposed. This is not unlike a second chance vest and such. It's not that big a deal to build armor that covers 10-11,13 but it would be nicer to do 10-12.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Timing of Hit Location/ Armor Application

 

I don't like going with a set x3 Stun Multiplier for Killing Attacks for one reason: I feel that Killing Attacks should always average less Stun damage than Normal Attacks, and for a 3 DC KA (any full 1d6 in a Killing Attack) a Stun Multiplier of x3 gives 3 * 3.5 = 10.5 Stun on average, which is exactly the same as the average Stun of a 3d6 Normal Attack. That makes the Killing Attack do both more average Stun and More average Body for the, "same sized," attack.

 

I'm of mixed opinion about the Normal Stun Multiplier. For reasons similar to the above, I tend to think it should be applied before defenses. A 1d6 KA to the head will do on average Stun of 5 * 3.5 - Def = 17.5 - Def, but a 3d6 Normal Attack will do an average of 2(10.5 - Def) = 21 - 2*Def; all it takes is 3.5 non-Resistant PD/ED per 3 DCs of the attack to make the Normal Attack do less final Stun damage than the Killing Attack. IMO if you REALLY want to knock someone out without killing them, you should be doing a Normal Attack to the head (even if they are wearing plate armor or whatever). But then, the story looks a little different if you consider other Hit Locations.

 

I tend to just go with the standard rules, but I'm not sure that I am exactly happy with them. I use Hit Locations rarely anyway.