Weapon Element, CSL and DC

[Dr Divago]

Resolved some problem with cyberware, i'm starting my little campaign to CybHerOpunk 2021

 

Now, a little problem: one PC is an "Old man from Japan", and of course he know Martial Art. In this case, Tai Chi Chuan (missed some "accent"? )

So i've found some problem:

 

1) Weapon element, cost 1 point; so spending 1 point he can make ALL maneuver with this weapon? in FREd (pag 265-266) say "yes" but i found this a bit cheap way to make Enormous amount of damage with a weapon...

 

2) If he use a Katana (1½d6 HKA, or 5DC) he can add STR bonus up to 10 DC (3d6+1). If he combine this with CSL, Bonus from Maneuver or like, can he increase damage OVER 3d6+1, or this is the maximum damage physically possible with the katana?

 

3) If he usa a Monoblade Katana (Katana AP) he can add +1 DC every 7.5 STR; he can add +1DC every two CSL? or every one bonus DC from Martial Maneuver? or he add, for example, +2DC every 6 CSL, or +2DC every +3d6 bonus from Maneuver?

 

Thank you for your help (one little thing: i'm using FREd, not 5ER; so if you want give me refererence to pages, please give me reference for FREd, not 5ER, if you can... i will thank you!!)

[caris]

Re: Weapon Element, CSL and DC

 

Resolved some problem with cyberware, i'm starting my little campaign to CybHerOpunk 2021

 

Now, a little problem: one PC is an "Old man from Japan", and of course he know Martial Art. In this case, Tai Chi Chuan (missed some "accent"? )

So i've found some problem:

 

1) Weapon element, cost 1 point; so spending 1 point he can make ALL maneuver with this weapon? in FREd (pag 265-266) say "yes" but i found this a bit cheap way to make Enormous amount of damage with a weapon...

 

2) If he use a Katana (1½d6 HKA, or 5DC) he can add STR bonus up to 10 DC (3d6+1). If he combine this with CSL, Bonus from Maneuver or like, can he increase damage OVER 3d6+1, or this is the maximum damage physically possible with the katana?

 

3) If he usa a Monoblade Katana (Katana AP) he can add +1 DC every 7.5 STR; he can add +1DC every two CSL? or every one bonus DC from Martial Maneuver? or he add, for example, +2DC every 6 CSL, or +2DC every +3d6 bonus from Maneuver?

 

Thank you for your help (one little thing: i'm using FREd, not 5ER; so if you want give me refererence to pages, please give me reference for FREd, not 5ER, if you can... i will thank you!!)

 

I think that there is a simple way to resolve the issue for you. Damage from CSL's, MA Maneuvers and MA DC's are technically "added" damage and at most can only double an attack's damage. 5E (not 5Er) pages 270-271 "Adding Damage" section.

 

 

In Ninja Hero, they talk about making an exception to this rule for Martial Arts heavy campaigns. You may choose to make a modified version of this exception, and allow pure STR Martial Artists (who do not use cyber ware) to treat the base DCs from the Manuevers to count as "base attack damage", but everything else counts as added damage, and that the DCs from Manuevers act as added damage for weapons and cyberware. That is if you feel that applying the basic restriction would restrict barefist MAs more than you want for your game.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Weapon Element, CSL and DC

 

normally you cannot more than double a weapon's base damage, regardless of how you do it. You may choose to make exceptions, but that's your descion

[RDU Neil]

Re: Weapon Element, CSL and DC

 

The above posts quote the rules, and they are correct. I'd like to speak from a Play Experience level on this one.

 

After two decades of Hero gaming... playing CyberHero from before it was published and tons of Danger International level games... I found one thing to be true. Martial Arts maneuvers built from a Superheroic POV (which the martial maneuvers as statted out in the book are done) can be very unbalancing and overly powerful at the more "realistic" (note the quotes) Heroic level... whether cyberhero, Danger Internation, Fantasy Hero... whatever.

 

Now... for super martial artists ramping up to 10-12 DC in a supers game... martial arts are no problem... but when Heroic level characters start maxing out 3d6+1 KA... or doing even 8-10 dice normal... this quickly outstrips a lot of other damages for very few points. In many cases, this can make a genre feel really wrong... like when it is better to punch the guy in heavy armor than shoot him, because you are more likely to damage with a punch than a magnum slug. You get this general "What the fu...?" kind of moment... or at least we have in the past.

 

For my Heroic level games that tend toward the lower, grittier levels... I've simply done the following.

 

For the same points per maneuver... cut in half the added Damage Classes from the maneuver. Fast Strike does only +1DC... Offensive Strike does only +2DC... etc.

 

One could try to argue that this means the maneuvers cost too much... but I'd disagree for a number of reasons I won't go into here. The end result, though, is what we wanted. Martial Arts that made you better than an untrained fighter... but didn't break the game or genre.

 

Just a suggestion... take it or leave it... but know that others have been there before you and suffered the same issue.

 

Good luck.

[Dr Divago]

Re: Weapon Element, CSL and DC

 

Now... for super martial artists ramping up to 10-12 DC in a supers game... martial arts are no problem... but when Heroic level characters start maxing out 3d6+1 KA... or doing even 8-10 dice normal... this quickly outstrips a lot of other damages for very few points. In many cases' date=' this can make a genre feel really wrong... like when it is better to punch the guy in heavy armor than shoot him, because you are more likely to damage with a punch than a magnum slug. You get this general "What the fu...?" kind of moment... or at least we have in the past.[/quote']I'd suspect it...

For the same points per maneuver... cut in half the added Damage Classes from the maneuver. Fast Strike does only +1DC... Offensive Strike does only +2DC... etc.

I think this was not well accepted by my player...

btw, i'll take it, and now that i'm informed, i can go to recover; in previous campaign (again CP2020 but Interlock), using a bunch of house rules someone was very powerful at this (combining flying kick with cyberleg maximized for this scope, etc.) but in the final way, this was not unbalancing 'cause i was keeping armor low, and bullet are ranged combat

 

But, you've still informed me, so i keep an eye open and try to create situation where martial artist is not so unbalancing. Anyway, i impose a maximum of 8 CV basic (base+csl) and cyberpunk genre is a mixed of superheroic and heroic...

[Edsel]

Re: Weapon Element, CSL and DC

 

This is a complex subject. Below is my understanding of the rules. Page references are to FREd (not 5ER)

For the same points per maneuver... cut in half the added Damage Classes from the maneuver. Fast Strike does only +1DC... Offensive Strike does only +2DC... etc.

This is the rule for Martial Arts adding to the damage classes of Killing attacks [FREd, p 271, 2nd paragraph of column 2].

 

The base damage for a weapon cannot be more than doubled, however martial arts manuvers increase the weapon's base damage. Only the manuver's added damage classes add to the base damage of the attack. Extra damage classes, extra STR bonuses, CSLs, and any other damage boosters are only damage adders and do not increase the base attack damage. [see FREd, p 271, 3rd paragraph, 1st column].

 

This would mean that a Katana (1 1/2d6 HKA) with 5 DC can normally do a maximum of 10 DC (3d6+1 HKA). However if using an Offensive strike, which adds +2 DC to the base damage of a killing strike the maximum damage becomes 14 DC (4 1/2 HKA). In other words any +4 DC manuver will add +2 DC to a killing attack's base damage. 5DC + 2DC = 7DC which can be increased to a maximum of 14 DC with other adders.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Weapon Element, CSL and DC

 

assuming you're letting martial manuvers add to base damage

[Ura-Maru]

Re: Weapon Element, CSL and DC

 

RDU Niels idea is a very good one. That also puts a 15 STR karate expert at roughly the same raw damage potental a really big guy (STR 25) I like this. I like it a LOT. I'm stealing it.

 

Much better than the system I was working on for my post-apoc game which involved diminishing returns past 20 effective STR and more number crunching.

 

It won't stop punches from being better than bullets against armor, but it will help.

 

Ah, you didn't let him buy extra DCs, did you?

 

Anyway, as for the actual questions:

 

1) Yup. The idea, more or less, is that MA works like STR, and you don't have to by STR seperatly to use a sword with it. You just have to buy 'familarity' with it. The manuvers that don't use STR are usually not improved by using a weapon with them. I've never really liked this aspect for heroic games, though I don't have a better idea at the moment.

 

2) I belive edsel is incorrect. The exception he's referring applies to barehanded manuvers like Killing Strike and Killing Throw, not for manuvers using weapons. The last sentence of paragraph three on that page makes it pretty clear. ("An HKA 1d6 sword used with a Martial Strike (+2 DCs) does D6+1 damage, but it's base damage is still just 1d6.")

 

3) The way you did STR is correct, you have to 'pay for' the adantages added onto a HKA. (There's an 'optional' exception for 'no End' and 'Charges' which as far as I know everyone uses) Officially, this dosn't apply to extra DCs via MA or Skill levels, which add extra DCs directly. There's no reason you can't change this if you'd like, though.

 

---

"Hai-kiba!"

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Weapon Element, CSL and DC

 

My version of FREd doesn't say that. It only says that the DC bonus from Extra Damage Class bought to add to Martial Maneuers acts as base DC for unarmed maneuvers only.

[Dr Divago]

Re: Weapon Element, CSL and DC

 

This is a complex subject. Below is my understanding of the rules. Page references are to FREd (not 5ER)

This is the rule for Martial Arts adding to the damage classes of Killing attacks [FREd, p 271, 2nd paragraph of column 2].

Thank You