Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Some players are such milquetoasts that they don't have two hours to make a character? What do they need to do' date=' check their stocks on the New York Stock Exchange? Meet the million-dollar star clients? See the governor? Singlehandedly rescue a busful of kids? [/quote']

 

I rescue a bus load of kids before breakfast. And still have time on my lunch break for character creation.

 

It's because i'm ruthles

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I beg to differ.

 

It typically takes me 3-4 hours to fully complete a HERO system character. My constructs are rather detailed and have to be balanced into a significant pre-existing world.

 

A good 1-2 hours of that time is spent with the player explaining various different approaches and how they fit into the campaign.

 

I usually do those 1-2 hrs while walking, working, eating, sleeping talking to someone else etc. so i don't consider it part of char gen in the same way as stating them out. But i take about the same amount of time now that i think of it.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Well, I suppose time spent in chargen depends on the player -- so we really can't use HERO's "long" chargen as a basis for comparison.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

You misunderstand. If players have a problem with the whole FACT hat chargen is complex -- a philosophical difference of opinion -- I'm fine with it. If it's purely the fact that it takes "too long' date='" then yes, that upsets me. Who would want to play with a GM who does absolutely no prep work because "they don't prefer that style of gameplay"? (Well... aside from stoners playing D&D for entertainment... ROFL.)[/quote']

 

I'm one of those GMs sometimes (and by no time i mean less than an hour)

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I've spent nights (like 3 nights 4-6 hrs each), making 15th lvl PCs. In the time it took for people to make one, i had made about 6, in varing degrees of silly.

 

A half-ogre ferral barbarian monk

 

a warforged psyonic warrior called "gutotron"

 

a mage who traveled the planes (ok, pretty normla)

 

an anthropomorphic baleen whale who could wield a gigantc greatsword dealing 8d6+50

 

and i think one or two more.

 

Just picking magical items takes forever!

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I usually do those 1-2 hrs while walking' date=' working, eating, sleeping talking to someone else etc. so i don't consider it part of char gen in the same way as stating them out. But i take about the same amount of time now that i think of it.[/quote']

 

As GM, I'm very involved in matching the concept to the world and the specific campaign.

 

So I was counting the time I spent interacting with the player.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

As GM, I'm very involved in matching the concept to the world and the specific campaign.

 

So I was counting the time I spent interacting with the player.

 

ah, i'm mostly a player so i was coming from another PoV

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

ah' date=' i'm mostly a player so i was coming from another PoV[/quote']

 

Yeah, I'm pretty much exclusively a GM. Must be fun to play, though....

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Character generation take me 1 hour to a week or more, depending on the charcter I am making. I'm still working on getting my Ketera Templates mapped out, and I don't have a single of 32 finished...I started them in may.

 

I do have 4 finished characters. Completely finished one, ready to be PCs in a nother game even.

 

Unfortunately each of these templates is for a critter built on 900 points or more. Which doesn't help matters.

 

If it is a simple character with powers that easily fit into the hero system then generation is much faster...but when (for example) one of the powers requires devouring the soul of another character and has triggered effects due to range that are not related to getting more dice AND optional outcomes by choice as well, it makes getting the right combination of powers, links, triggers, and SFX to be as true to concept as possible very difficult and time consuming. You can of course throw together something and fudge the rest, but thats not always as satisfying and often feels a little cheap to me.

 

As long as the final outcome is satisfying I certainly don't mind taking the time to build them. Most of the time it's even fun. I just have to make sure I have all the time I need.

 

PC creation for games is much easier for me than NPC creation, I can usually finish a good PC in a couple hours if I already have an idea or about what Foc and Roy take if I don't...but that's mainly because I have a whole lot less options.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Yeah' date=' I'm pretty much exclusively a GM. Must be fun to play, though.... [/quote']

 

it is, i run a game, and some of my players run games, and invite me to their games, etc. so it's really a cycle of gaming

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

it is' date=' i run a game, and some of my players run games, and invite me to their games, etc. so it's really a cycle of gaming[/quote']

 

I get to do both as well. Some of the campaigns use shared GM, so I get to play and GM in the same world.

 

As a rule, it seems that GMs come to boards like this more than players and are over represent as a result. I have no idea if that's true here.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

As a rule' date=' it seems that GMs come to boards like this more than players and are over represent as a result. I have no idea if that's true here.[/quote']

 

Pretty much a universal rule. There are players on RPG boards, but not nearly as many as full-time (relatively speaking) GMs.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

hmmm that's interesting, although i know OC, Zod, Fireg0lem and I are all at least part time GMs (actually all of us run and play)

[tesuji]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

but if a person can't reserve two hours for a roleplaying game -- and assuming that they want to take part in the campaign, but are scared off by chargen -- why? How can a person be so lumpy that they can't make time for a couple of hours to prepare for a game?

Its not CAN'T!

 

Thats the mental disconnect.

 

Its not "i wont play in a campaign because i can't do two hour chargen."

 

Its more "well, instead of doing two hour chargen for that game, i will instead do half-hour chargen for this other game which will be just as fun."

 

The guys turning away from HERo because of its weight are not turning their back on RPGs and going off to a monastary to sulk. They are instead CHOOSING OTHER GAMES where the effort-to-reward is better... in their eyes.

 

For example, the jarring thing for me about the T20 18 lines per character vs CT 3 lines per character was having played the old game too I know it was one of if not the most enjoyable RPG games i ran. I can tell you more about the characters and how they would act and decide from that campaign now decades long past than i can about the much more mechanicly defined and detailed out HERo character from the campaigns of only one decade ago.

 

The extra effort and detail of the chargen mechanics and writeups did not produce an improvement in the game play and enjoyment.

 

So its not someone is too lazy to spend the time to play a game, its that they have other games, other rpgs, other campaigns to choose that offer every bit as much enjoyment in the PLAY TIME LOOP with significantly less upfront work and effort in chargen.

 

It makes me angry because it's an "instant need gratification, everything as easy for me as possible" approach, which I find extremely offensive considering how much work I -- and all GMs on this board -- put into running a game for people.

 

This is unfathomable to me. Whatever "work" i choose to do as a Gm i do because i enjoy it.

 

Still, I do everything i can to do that work as efficiently as possible. if creating excel spreadhseets to track PC traits helps me plan scenarios, then i do so instead of each and every time doing the shuffle thru pc sheets looking it up again." I find creating a cheat sheet means i get less work but just as good a design.

 

So a player can also reasonably decide "because i will get as much fun from bob's fudge based stargate game as i would from steve's HERO based fantasy hero game, but the FH game will require more work due to more heavy system and complex chargen, I am better off choosing to play the stargate game." he chooses the game which best meets his desires for enjoyability and his workload preferences.

 

At least, IMX its not normally a case of HERO or nothing.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

hmmm that's interesting' date=' although i know OC, Zod, Fireg0lem and I are all at least part time GMs (actually all of us run and play)[/quote']

 

yep, I know about the same as you Roy of course. most of our other players aren't partial to a system and don't want to put in the effort to GM. They aren't as crazy as us and think we are such dorks for being here =P

 

Kech says I spend too much time on the boards. But he's curious..hehe

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

yep, I know about the same as you Roy of course. most of our other players aren't partial to a system and don't want to put in the effort to GM. They aren't as crazy as us and think we are such dorks for being here =P

 

Kech says I spend too much time on the boards. But he's curious..hehe

 

it's not that they arn't partial to it. They like it more than any other RPG except daniel i think. it's just that they don't like RPGs as much. It's like having 100% of 2% of their attention.

 

And brian, brian might love hunter, not sure...

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Its not CAN'T!

 

Thats the mental disconnect.

 

Its not "i wont play in a campaign because i can't do two hour chargen."

 

Its more "well, instead of doing two hour chargen for that game, i will instead do half-hour chargen for this other game which will be just as fun."

 

Lazy.

 

The guys turning away from HERo because of its weight are not turning their back on RPGs and going off to a monastary to sulk. They are instead CHOOSING OTHER GAMES where the effort-to-reward is better... in their eyes.

 

I'm sure they'll use that extra 1/2 hour they'll save to cure cancer or write a dissertation on string theory.

 

For example' date=' the jarring thing for me about the T20 18 lines per character vs CT 3 lines per character was having played the old game too I know it was one of if not the most enjoyable RPG games i ran. I can tell you more about the characters and how they would act and decide from that campaign now decades long past than i can about the much more mechanicly defined and detailed out HERo character from the campaigns of only one decade ago.[/quote']

 

I am FINE with liking a system better because the system is better and seems cooler and more fun to you. I'm not fine with liking a system better because it allows you to be lazier.

 

The extra effort and detail of the chargen mechanics and writeups did not produce an improvement in the game play and enjoyment.

 

And if that is the case, I AGREE. I even said before that a system which requires cumbersome chargen, but offers nothing extra in return,m is a bad thing.

 

So its not someone is too lazy to spend the time to play a game' date=' its that they have other games, other rpgs, other campaigns to choose that offer every bit as much enjoyment in the PLAY TIME LOOP with significantly less upfront work and effort in chargen.[/quote']

 

An extra hour of chargen allows for... what, 1/2 a game of Monopoly?

 

This is unfathomable to me. Whatever "work" i choose to do as a Gm i do because i enjoy it.

 

Have you ever GMed before? In my experience, there's always a sucky part to fleshing out a campaign, sometimes a long and gritty one. If you always have fun creating the campaign world every second you're doing it... awesome, man. I don't believe you, though.

 

But, you're entitled to your opinion.

[Onyxclaw]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

it's not that they arn't partial to it. They like it more than any other RPG except daniel i think. it's just that they don't like RPGs as much. It's like having 100% of 2% of their attention.

 

And brian, brian might love hunter, not sure...

 

haha, yeah you nailed it there.

 

He doesn't love hunter. It just rewards him for being a trigger happy a$$hat. that's what he loves.

[tesuji]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

 

I didn't see that I was relimiting anything, barring aknowledgement that, yes, the loop model is very player-centric.

Again, givn every game i ever ran or played in had a GM, i do think this heavily hits the relevence of the loop theory applied to RPg issues. YMMV.

I could point you to just about any HERO thread on RPG.net and many of the "HERO vs. M&M" threads I've seen you (and myself) in before where, intentional or no, people made objective statements ("System X is crap because") rather than subjective ones ("I don't enjoy X becasue").

Well, frankly, while this may be a bug up your bonnet, in my experience most of the people who say "X is bad" tend to see it as the same thing as "I don't like X." When someone tells me that so-n-so's checken is bad, i don't take it to mean the store sells spoiled rotted meat, but that its not something they like.

 

So, once you parse your selection of HERo complaints down to those who believe HERO is BAD in an inhrent organic way as opposed to HERo does things i dont like... i think you have again limited very narrowly the scope of complaints you are applying this to.

 

IME, it's usually someone trying to tell me why I'm not really having fun, because HERO (or D&D, or whatever) "is bad" (or "can't do") in such-and-such ways.

People actually tell you "you are not having fun"? or is that your spin on their take on things? Is them telling you why they don't have fun what you are taking as "you are not having fun?"

 

I ask because i have seen many of those threads yet i have never seen anyone actually tell others "you are not really having fun".

 

if there are threads aplenty on RPG net where this occurs, can you provide me a link to one.

 

Now, my suspicion is that you are reinterpreting their comment a bit, but i am willing to have you prove me wrong by posting a link to the thread(s) in which someone did the "usual" thing and told you you were not really having fun.

 

 

FWIW, I have not been asserting that the loop model is a rationale why people "should try" HERO.

but others have indicated that was the point. So a statement that no one is making such a claim is a trifle inaccurate.

Actually, I think it was you who widened the scope, and now I'm trying to bring it back to where I think I started.

 

Had you stated in the initial post something about "not including games with Gms" then i might believe i widened it appreciably. instead, what i see as having happened is we have further defined the original posts scope... unfortunately it has now been refined to such a narrow space that it might be accurate within its tiny box of games but its such a tiny box that its really a lot of effort about a trifling percentage.

 

Most games have a GM and won't be covered by this model.

IMX, maybe not yours, most chargen complaints don't involve repetitive chargen among players.

IMX, maybe not your, most chargen time complaints from players are (some perhaps not stately as clearly as you would like) about the threshold being too much for the gain, its not worth the effort for them, not about their being some universal set figure at which point good and bad suddenly divide.

 

The loop model may handle the rest of the player chargen time complaint cases fine, but since i havent ever seen a game which fits in that box, its only a cute hypothetical more or less rather than something useful in resolving (or i guess "countering") these complaints or differences.

 

back to the original point, the way to "counter" the complaints about hero complexity and chargen is not to try and just say "you are wrong" whether by loop or crook, but to instead show them in some demonstrable fashion the benefits gained that make the extra time worthwhile. you already "know" its worth it, so start with what you know instead of starting with where you think they are wrong.

 

All of course, IMO.

[tesuji]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

 

Lazy.

Phenomenal.

 

the way i use the term, it would be called efficient. you gain just as much but do less work to get the gains.

 

Lazy would be turning down the game you would enjoy and doing nothing enjoyable instead because of the work involved. You LOSE due to less effort.

I'm sure they'll use that extra 1/2 hour they'll save to cure cancer or write a dissertation on string theory.

they may spend it masturbating, which means they get funned twice. The key is, they aren't spending extra effort for no net gain. That would be considered wasting time.

I am FINE with liking a system better because the system is better and seems cooler and more fun to you. I'm not fine with liking a system better because it allows you to be lazier.

Ok but what if you like it because its AS FUn and yet takes less time so you can do other enoyable thing and get your gaming too? to me, thats efficient.

 

Hey, how about this. if a Gm buys Crooks conquerors and killers and uses those character as foes for his game (which turns out just as fun for those involved) to save time and spend more time on plots, is he being lazy? If he spent that extra time watching DNDS instead, is he being lazy?

 

And if that is the case, I AGREE. I even said before that a system which requires cumbersome chargen, but offers nothing extra in return,m is a bad thing.

So its not maybe LAZY if the game that results is as fun as the one which took more work? Well, thats my point.

An extra hour of chargen allows for... what, 1/2 a game of Monopoly?

The better question is "what does the extra hour of chargen GAIN ME? To the players, speaking generally here, that reject HERo due to chargen length, they do NOT SEE a gain to be had for that extra effort that is worthwhile when compared to their options.

 

you seem to be coming at this from the angle of "you dont have anything better to do" but when it comes to effort people think the reverse... what do i gain for my work.

 

people who see "this is worth the effort" in HERO chargen are not the ones choosing other options.

Have you ever GMed before?

contantly since about 1981 with HERO being heads and shoulders above the rest in terms of GMing time.

In my experience, there's always a sucky part to fleshing out a campaign, sometimes a long and gritty one. If you always have fun creating the campaign world every second you're doing it... awesome, man. I don't believe you, though.

you shouldn't believe that because those words are yours, not mine.

 

I gm because i enjoy it. The work i put into it is for that reason. if thats not the same for you, thats cool. However, thats certainly not the same as saying "every second of time i spend GMing is enjoyable." which i never said.

 

 

More to the point perhaps, when i Gm i do do things ti minimize my workload and make efficient the time i spend. So it would be rather unsportsmanly for me to, because i do more work, not expect my players to make similar judgements and choose the "as enjoyable but less work" options available to them. Thinking "they should choose the more work option for the same fun" while i choose the "same fun option with less work" is one heck of a warped standard, IMO.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

Phenomenal.

 

Rad.

 

Lazy would be turning down the game you would enjoy and doing nothing enjoyable instead because of the work involved. You LOSE due to less effort.

 

A lot of people DO do that, though. I've seen it. Worse, people occasionally won't even try systems like HERO because it's "too much work."

 

they may spend it masturbating' date=' which means they get funned twice. The key is, they aren't spending extra effort for no net gain. That would be considered wasting time.[/quote']

 

Personally, I see a huge gain in doing HERO chargen the way it is done. It is the most comprehensive system I have ever seen, and allows for the most freedom. There's an EXPONENTIAL net gain for the extra time spent in chargen. And as I said before, a lot of these systems end up having you spend WAY more time building your character than HERO does -- hidden costs, so to speak.

 

Ok but what if you like it because its AS FUn and yet takes less time so you can do other enoyable thing and get your gaming too? to me' date=' thats efficient.[/quote']

 

Then it's a better system because it's as good, but faster.

 

Hey' date=' how about this. if a Gm buys Crooks conquerors and killers and uses those character as foes for his game (which turns out just as fun for those involved) to save time and spend more time on plots, is he being lazy? If he spent that extra time watching DNDS instead, is he being lazy?[/quote']

 

Time is money. All it means is that the GM has invested a different kind of resource to get the game going. I never said he/ she should hand-tailor absolutely everything, though I believe creative effort is important.

 

So its not maybe LAZY if the game that results is as fun as the one which took more work? Well' date=' thats my point.[/quote']

 

Sigh. I've played d20 for years. It's cripplingly restrictive. People play it because it uses the rules that everyone knows. And I have WAAAY more fun GMing HERO than D&D. Because what's fun for ME is being creative, instead of selecting crap off of a fricking list and having to follow the creators' ideas of what a spell or a sword should be all the time.

 

The better question is "what does the extra hour of chargen GAIN ME? To the players' date=' speaking generally here, that reject HERo due to chargen length, they do NOT SEE a gain to be had for that extra effort that is worthwhile when compared to their options.[/quote']

 

If they don't see the advantage of HERO's chargen system over, say, d20's system, they're in extreme denial. And lazy.

 

I gm because i enjoy it. The work i put into it is for that reason. if thats not the same for you' date=' thats cool. However, thats certainly not the same as saying "every second of time i spend GMing is enjoyable." which i never said.[/quote']

 

OMFG. You're skewing the issue. What I'm trying to show is that an extra hour of chargen shouldn't ruin the overall playing experience any more than extra GM effort for campaign creation ruins the GMing experience.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

What I'm trying to show is that an extra hour of chargen shouldn't ruin the overall playing experience any more than extra GM effort for campaign creation ruins the GMing experience.

 

You near omnipotent ability to decide what other people can and should find acceptable is amazing.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

You near omnipotent ability to decide what other people can and should find acceptable is amazing.

 

Your love for electronic criticism and insult is without equal.

 

I won't decide for them. I'll simply call their decision lazy if I think it's lazy. Thanks for telling ME (albeit subtly) I'm not allowed to decide that, though.

[Fox1]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

I won't decide for them. I'll simply call their decision lazy if I think it's lazy. Thanks for telling ME (albeit subtly) I'm not allowed to decide that' date=' though.[/quote']

 

You can hold whatever opinion you wish about them.

 

However attacking them in public over their dislikes and likes in gaming? Will, at best expect back the same.

[Guest Black Lotus]

Re: Loop model of RPGs and why long chargen is okay

 

You can hold whatever opinion you wish about them.

 

However attacking them in public over their dislikes and likes in gaming? Will, at best expect back the same.

 

If you would like to make fun of me for wanting to put as much thought and effort as possible into creating an in-depth, enjoyable, quality game for my players, that's fine with me. I spare no expense to create the best game I know how.

 

Me, I'll never sacrifice time for quality. I feel that that's what SOME of these players/ GMs do when using a crap system -- they just use it because it's easier. Others just use a faster system because they like the system more. Those, I have no problem with.