Did I miss something?

[Zed-F]

Someone mentioned there being a cap for how much you can Drain someone now in 5E & 5ER... I don't recall reading that in FREd but I don't have my books in front of me so it's possible I just missed it, or it's a 5ER thing. I don't see an adder in HD that allows you to increase said cap... so is it real, or a figment of that person's imagination? If it's real, how do you increase the cap?

[MitchellS]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

There is no cap on drain. He might have been thinking about transfer.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

Hmmm. Maybe there should be....

[Zed-F]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

Why?

 

There isn't a cap on Suppress or Succor, either. If any of them needs a cap, it's Succor. It's pretty easy to build a small, cheap continuous Succor that just keeps going forever, even without resorting to END advantages. A 1 1/2d6 Continuous Succor STR costs 1 END per phase, which is quite affordable, and will give you an extra 5 or so STR per phase for as long as you choose to keep it going, without any significant effort on your part. Activate that in non-combat time, and you can easily have a STR over 100 within a minute.

 

With Drain and Suppress, you have to have a valid target before you can start draining or suppressing, which limits your ability to activate it in non-combat time. Moreover, there's some natural limits on how much you can drain away; once you get the target down to 0 points (or -30 in a characteristic) there's not much point in draining further.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

I'm thinking of a cap on ALL adjustent powers up (as at present) or down. It would certainly be one way to kerb the desperate temptation of autofire speed drains. Given the nature of HERO adjustment powers can be very powerful indeed

[Zed-F]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

*shrug* So can any NND, AVLD, EGO attack, etc.

 

If it makes you happy, go ahead. I for one generally prefer to stick to the rules as written, and just disallow stuff that I think might be counter to the feel I'm looking for in my game, rather than propose a lot of house rules. It's cleaner and more portable that way.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

All powers designed to attack STUN, primarily, which ost characters have quite a lot of and a reasonable mechanism for recovering quickly.

 

Drains work very differently and are far more powerful: you can cripple many bricks with a 4d6 drain v INT on one hit, and seriously disrupt almost anyone with a well timed 3d6 drain v SPEED.

 

I had not appreciated that succor adds with no cap, but there it is in the rule book, well spotted. Utter madness. That's definitely getting house ruled.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

I had not appreciated that succor adds with no cap' date=' but there it is in the rule book, well spotted. Utter madness. That's definitely getting house ruled.[/quote']

 

There's a couple of catches for succor, IMO. First off, since Aid normally requires an attack roll, I believe each use is an attack action, so while you're bolstering your STR, you're not hitting anything with it.

 

Second, I believe you must pay END every phase to maintain each Succor, so the END cost increases geometrically. Since Succor is Aid, Self Only, Costs END, 1d6 STR Succor costs 1 END. If my Spd 4 character uses it 4 times (his whole turn) he's up 14 (on average) STR at a cost of 4 END per phase to maintain it.

 

Buying +15 STR, Costs END to maintain, would cost 10 points, 1 END per phase and require no attack actions. +8 STR would cost 5. A min/maxer would pay the extra costs or cap the boost at 8 rather than take the drawbacks that come with Succor.

[Zed-F]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

Both those drawbacks of Succor are addressed by making the power Continuous (+1 advantage) as opposed to simply constant. You activate the power once, and continuous does the rest, as described above. You maintain one instance of the power.

 

Even if you don't want to do that, buying Succor down to 0 END (+1/2) or taking Costs END Only to Activate (+1/4) pretty much eliminates the maintenance problem, and the requirement for an attack roll is no problem at all in non-combat time. Just power-up whenever you are expecting a fight, and you're golden. Sure, sometimes you'll get bushwhacked, but that's more the exception than the rule.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

Both those drawbacks of Succor are addressed by making the power Continuous (+1 advantage) as opposed to simply constant. You activate the power once, and continuous does the rest, as described above. You maintain one instance of the power.

 

Even if you don't want to do that, buying Succor down to 0 END (+1/2) or taking Costs END Only to Activate (+1/4) pretty much eliminates the maintenance problem, and the requirement for an attack roll is no problem at all in non-combat time. Just power-up whenever you are expecting a fight, and you're golden. Sure, sometimes you'll get bushwhacked, but that's more the exception than the rule.

 

Now we're just getting back into the realm of Aid - fade rate 5/hour (ideally withn an enhanced maximum limit, and preferably Any One Characteristic, one at a time).

 

The reduced END is solved if you consider Succor to be Aid, Costs END. You can't buy Reduced END on it if it already has Costs END.

 

However, the lack of a cap on Succor when there is one on Aid is an annoying inconsistency best eliminated.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

That lack of a cap does seem to be the whole of the problem

[Zed-F]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

I usually address that by assigning a cap based on the AP of the power in question, or on the overall power level of the game the character is intended to play in, rather than making up a house rule, and just noting the cap on the character sheet. However, YMMV.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

Succor also specifically states that you should not put 0 END, except with GM permission. I believe that makes it a non-cannon build at that point.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

Succor also specifically states that you should not put 0 END' date=' except with GM permission. I believe that makes it a non-cannon build at that point.[/quote']

Agreed. I believe Succor also costs 5/d6 rather than 10/d6. A different Base Cost is radically different from the same Base Cost with Limitations (or Advantages and Limitations). Succor is not an Aid with Costs End. It is a completely separate version of the Power. There is no reason, for example, that you could not buy a Succor with Charges (which will cost 1 Charge per Phase unless you use Continuous Charges), but you should never normally buy a Power with Costs End or Increased End Cost and Charges unless you truly want it to require both.

 

BTW, IMO the reason you can't buy Costs End and Reduced End Cost on the same Power is that it has no game effect and serves only to mathematically complicate things and buffer the costs of other Advantages (adding a +1 Advantage to a Power costs a lot less when there is already +1 in Advantages and -1 in Limitations on it; that is very easy to verify--try it sometime). This would not be an issue if Advantages and Limitations were multiplicative, which might fix some dangerous Advantages and fix the problem with opposed Advantages and Limitations.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

Succor also specifically states that you should not put 0 END' date=' except with GM permission. I believe that makes it a non-cannon build at that point.[/quote']

 

 

Actually it says you should apply the same restrictions, if you do buy reduced END, as you would for supress: there has to be a reasonably straightforward way to turn off the supressed/succored characteristics - the system puts no bar (other than time) on succoring yourself (erm....) to truly titanic levels.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

Actually it says you should apply the same restrictions' date=' if you do buy reduced END, as you would for supress: there has to be a reasonably straightforward way to turn off the supressed/succored characteristics - the system puts no bar (other than time) on succoring yourself (erm....) to truly titanic levels.[/quote']

It places no bar, but it warns very heavily about this construct. I don't see why you couldn't just go with the Maximum Effect limit any time someone does put Reduced End Cost on the Power. That way the standard Power works as is, but the one that is heavily warned against and very dangerous has the normal check on Adjustment Powers.

 

BTW, I would by default consider anything in the Advantage range of Charges to fit in the same category as one that had bought Reduced End Cost.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

Actually it says you should apply the same restrictions' date=' if you do buy reduced END, as you would for supress: there has to be a reasonably straightforward way to turn off the supressed/succored characteristics - the system puts no bar (other than time) on succoring yourself (erm....) to truly titanic levels.[/quote']

 

Yah, I realize this after rechecking .. I remember now that we immediately put that restriction on Succor: It can't be bought 0END.

 

So, we house ruled the issue out of the way... we have so few I keep forgetting when a rule is ours and when it's not.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

Yah, I realize this after rechecking .. I remember now that we immediately put that restriction on Succor: It can't be bought 0END.

 

So, we house ruled the issue out of the way... we have so few I keep forgetting when a rule is ours and when it's not.

 

 

They're ALL yours

[Phil]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

I had not appreciated that succor adds with no cap' date=' but there it is in the rule book, well spotted. Utter madness. That's definitely getting house ruled.[/quote']

 

I second that. I had no idea. Completely crazy, as the continuous succor example sets out.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Did I miss something?

 

They're ALL yours

 

uh... I need to find a care-sheet. Anyone got an idea what they eat??