A reason to play a 'straight' MA

[ghost-angel]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

The system is restrictive, in oh so many ways. It has to be or it is not a system it is simple imaginative play or poor literature. Nothing against either but it is not why I bought Hero: I wanted a common meeting place for those imaginations. What the system does for me, is provide a range of balanced options, and allows me to adjust the balance if I want to.

 

Can you help me with this: why it should be so much cheaper, as far as charater creation points go, to cause damage this way than any other way? How does that help? By your own argument it is restricting every option other than martial arts: surely if you WANT people in game to favour MA over all other options, you should be doing what you suggest - restrict all the other options in your game, rather than having a system set up to do that from the word go.

 

you're power gaming. stop that.

 

stop building characters like they're just numbers. I want that I'll take a calculus class. I'm here to Role Play. not Roll Play.

 

Martial Arts isn't shooting fire from your eyes - so you wouldn't purchase that if you want a character that shoots fire from their eyes. It doesn't matter if it costs less.

 

And heavy MA games tend towards Heroic Campaigns with lower point totals so the pricing is fit for that, where you're less like to see AP HAs and such.

 

do what Hawksmoor does: Limit, Control, Examine the GAME.

[radioKAOS]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Agreed we as players and Gms need to make sure balance is upheld.

 

My point is that the ruling Presti gave keeps that balance rather nicely. I hope it becomes official, we'll see.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

you're power gaming. stop that.

 

stop building characters like they're just numbers. I want that I'll take a calculus class. I'm here to Role Play. not Roll Play.

 

Martial Arts isn't shooting fire from your eyes - so you wouldn't purchase that if you want a character that shoots fire from their eyes. It doesn't matter if it costs less.

 

And heavy MA games tend towards Heroic Campaigns with lower point totals so the pricing is fit for that, where you're less like to see AP HAs and such.

 

do what Hawksmoor does: Limit, Control, Examine the GAME.

 

 

I'm not power gaming, I'm discussing potential rules abuse, and there is a difference. I have never felt martial arts to be imbalanced or in need of extra advantages to make them compete effectively with strength. They are not simply a strength replacement tool: they do qualatitively different things:eek:

 

I am dismayed that this is now another wrinkle in the overly complicated 'how you add damage together' rules. I have absolutely no idea why it is necessary.

 

I am concerned that you now add any advantage you like to martial arts for 2 or 3 points (HA 1 pip Area effect one hex, doubled twice, 0 END, NND = 3 points and you can now nerve strike everyone in a 4 hex radius) and that is at odds with the balance considerations through the rest of the game. it doesn't even have a stop sign, unlike UAA and suchlike, and 3 points is as much a bargain in a heroic game as in a superhero game.

 

I am mystified as to why anyone who doesn't want to powergame should think this is a good idea. Let's not have any nonsense about wuxia. The system doesn't need this to 'do' that genre, anymore than it needs superpowers discounted to 'do' a superhero game.

 

NuSordGraphite says limit it to twice base damage, and there have been other suggestions for applying kerbs to this particular (to me) problem, but that doesn't get at the heart of it: it is another inconsistency and complication that is simply not needed.

 

Or is it? I can't think of a good reason, but maybe the design philosophy of the game has one. Unfortunately, that is one thing we will never know.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Agreed we as players and Gms need to make sure balance is upheld.

 

My point is that the ruling Presti gave keeps that balance rather nicely. I hope it becomes official, we'll see.

Unfortunately it isn't official. Steve's answer indicates that Extra DCs for Martial Arts adds to damage just like any Martial Arts, which means they ignore Advantages completely. I will have to think carefully, therefore, about whether I implement a house rule to reverse this or rule that Extra DCs for Martial Arts do not add to Base Damage. It is my firm belief that one of those must change in order to have any kind of semblance of balance.

[ghost-angel]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

I'm not power gaming, I'm discussing potential rules abuse, and there is a difference. I have never felt martial arts to be imbalanced or in need of extra advantages to make them compete effectively with strength. They are not simply a strength replacement tool: they do qualatitively different things:eek:

 

I am dismayed that this is now another wrinkle in the overly complicated 'how you add damage together' rules. I have absolutely no idea why it is necessary.

 

I am concerned that you now add any advantage you like to martial arts for 2 or 3 points (HA 1 pip Area effect one hex, doubled twice, 0 END, NND = 3 points and you can now nerve strike everyone in a 4 hex radius) and that is at odds with the balance considerations through the rest of the game. it doesn't even have a stop sign, unlike UAA and suchlike, and 3 points is as much a bargain in a heroic game as in a superhero game.

 

I am mystified as to why anyone who doesn't want to powergame should think this is a good idea. Let's not have any nonsense about wuxia. The system doesn't need this to 'do' that genre, anymore than it needs superpowers discounted to 'do' a superhero game.

 

NuSordGraphite says limit it to twice base damage, and there have been other suggestions for applying kerbs to this particular (to me) problem, but that doesn't get at the heart of it: it is another inconsistency and complication that is simply not needed.

 

Or is it? I can't think of a good reason, but maybe the design philosophy of the game has one. Unfortunately, that is one thing we will never know.

 

All very good questions...

 

MA are priced along the lines of Skills, which is where they came from. They aren't powers and don't seem to be priced as Powers are priced.

 

The problem we run into is the Hand Attack construct, not the pricing of MAs or anything else.

 

Since Hand Attack can be looked at one of two ways: STR, Hand Attack Only (which is, I believe, the Canon Though) you are adding directly to your STR with a Hand Attack only to dertermine how many dice you roll to hurt someone. Since there is no upper limit to the ammount of STR you can use beyond Campaign Guidelines (Active Point caps, DC caps, etc...) you run into the STR+MA+HA = Full Attack, quickly getting out of hand if you let it, for relatively little cost.

 

If you assume Hand Attack means Energy Blast, No Range (not what it is) then you could realisticly assume that you can no more than double a HA power, thus creating a HA+MA+STR = Full Attack (no more than twice the HA Max).

 

Personally, if you want to take care of the 'problem' I would do this:

- Don't adjust the cost of MA, this way they work for both Heroic and Superheroic Games.

- Add the MA damage to either a STR Att or a HA Att, not both. This way if your Superheroic MA wants a large damage attack he is looking to buy more HA, his STR has no bearing on the issue. They still must follow guidelines.

- In this case you could conceivable reprice HA to 5pt/D6 to match Energy Blast and become more consistent in the rules. Possibly not.

- Heroic games where a HA Power is usually not used still gets to use the Characters STR to add the MA Dmg to, probably still not exceeding guidelines.

 

I haven't done any real math, but I have a feeling that a MA that can only add HA and not HA+STR to his MA is now paying as much or more than everyone else. He has to buy his STR like an Energy Blaster for STR use, and it has no bearing on his DCs. He has to buy his Attack (Hand Attack in this case) like the Energy Blaster does (EB in that case) AND he has to buy a bunch of maneuvers to make him look cool (the Energy Blaster is purchasing Ranged SLs to compensate, and probably still spending less).

 

I have no idea how elegant or practical this solution might be.

[radioKAOS]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Unfortunately it isn't official. Steve's answer indicates that Extra DCs for Martial Arts adds to damage just like any Martial Arts' date=' which means they ignore Advantages completely. I will have to think carefully, therefore, about whether I implement a house rule to reverse this or rule that Extra DCs for Martial Arts do [i']not[/i] add to Base Damage. It is my firm belief that one of those must change in order to have any kind of semblance of balance.

 

Yeah it certainly seems far enough out of balance to warrant a house rule. I personally like the 'DCs must take advantages into account' Rule. Of course then I also think that STR used in such a fashion should require buying the naked advantage for that as well... That seems only fair.

 

The other thing to add maybe is having to buy the Weapon Element for each 'attack mode'. It's not a huge difference in points [+1pt/attack mode] but it makes sense really. Learning to Autofire your Offensive Strike is a heck of a lot different than learning to make your Spear Hand Armour Piercing, both of which are far different than a normal strike.

 

I like the idea of being able to create Martial Attacks that have advantages. I've been fiddling with how to do that properly since 4th Ed. Of course, now that "Autofire Kick" and "Armour Piercing Spear Hand" are deadly and CHEAP.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Yeah it certainly seems far enough out of balance to warrant a house rule. I personally like the 'DCs must take advantages into account' Rule. Of course then I also think that STR used in such a fashion should require buying the naked advantage for that as well... That seems only fair.

 

The other thing to add maybe is having to buy the Weapon Element for each 'attack mode'. It's not a huge difference in points [+1pt/attack mode] but it makes sense really. Learning to Autofire your Offensive Strike is a heck of a lot different than learning to make your Spear Hand Armour Piercing, both of which are far different than a normal strike.

 

I like the idea of being able to create Martial Attacks that have advantages. I've been fiddling with how to do that properly since 4th Ed. Of course, now that "Autofire Kick" and "Armour Piercing Spear Hand" are deadly and CHEAP.

Yes. At 4 Active Points per DC (I say Active Points because that will never go up with Advantages) that work just as if you had increased the dice by paying more Base Points, it is completely ridiculous!

[radioKAOS]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Yes. At 4 Active Points per DC (I say Active Points because that will never go up with Advantages) that work just as if you had increased the dice by paying more Base Points' date=' it is completely ridiculous![/quote']

 

*sigh* Agreed, of course.

 

I guess, really it's just up to us to keep balance in our games... seems a shame something so simple is so out of whack.