A reason to play a 'straight' MA

[Zed-F]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Well' date=' perhaps we can get an answer from Steve on what this is supposed to be, officially.[/quote']

 

I've looked at the rules for adding damage to advantaged HAs.

 

It is clear when adding damage with strength that you can double the base HA damage and retain the advantages.

 

When adding damage with Martial Arts and damage classes, I find myself confused (not an unusual circumstance )

 

5ER p 407 at the bottom says MA maneuvres add to damage at the same rate as if there were no advantage, but does not specify any upper limit to the amount that can add.

 

Take for example a 2d6HA with armour piercing.

 

Use that with a martial strike and it beceomes a 4d6HA with armour piercing, right?

 

If you have (say) +2DCs with martial arts does that then become a 6d6HA with armour piercing, or does it max out at 4d6 if you want to retain the advantage?

 

Thank you.

 

You take the full Martial Arts damage and add the HA damage to it; in your example' date=' the attack would do 6d6 AP damage.[/quote']

 

There you go, the ayes have it. The full maneuver damage is added to the HA, including both extra DCs and the maneuver component itself.

[radioKAOS]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

There you go' date=' the ayes have it. The full maneuver damage is added to the HA, including both extra DCs and the maneuver component itself.[/quote']

 

Um, wow. Now that makes Martial Artists very powerful for very low cost.

 

Hero Designer allows me to buy HA at 1pip in a multipower. Is this legal?

 

If so, then it is possible for a MA to have a whole slew of advantaged attacks for 10 points or so...

 

Assuming I have 10STR, +5DCs and a few Martial Moves, let's use Quick Strike (+2DCs) for ease...

 

Then I buy:

5 MA Tricks

 

1u Ghost Hand: Hand-To-Hand Attack +1 point, Affects Desolidified Any form of Desolidification (+1/2) (3 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 1

 

1u Slicing Knife Hand: Hand-To-Hand Attack +1 point, Armor Piercing (+1/2) (3 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 1

 

1u Pushing Hit: Hand-To-Hand Attack +1 point, Double Knockback (+3/4) (3 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 1

 

1u Whirlwind Attack: Hand-To-Hand Attack +1 point, Personal Immunity (+1/4), Area Of Effect (2" Radius; +1 1/4) (5 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 1

 

1u Defensive Offense: Hand-To-Hand Attack +1 point, Damage Shield (+1/2) (3 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) 1

 

- all of a sudden I have 7 1/2D6 Affects Desolid, 7 1/2D6 AP, 7 1/2D6 DKB, 7 1/2D6 AoE 2"Rad, and a 7 1/2D6 Damage Shield... all for 10points!!!

 

On top of the 20pts for the DCs and 4pts for the Quick Strike, a total of 34 pts...

[Fox1]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

There you go' date=' the ayes have it. The full maneuver damage is added to the HA, including both extra DCs and the maneuver component itself.[/quote']

 

Just because it's official doesn't mean it's a good idea.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Well, slap me and call me Sally.

 

I have to say, as RadioKAOS has pointed out, we seem to be pulling into abuse central with this particular rule.

 

I can not see what possible balance need this ruling is designed to address, oh me of little imagination....

[Hawksmoor]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

I have said it before and here is the rehash:

 

Martial Arts are the most easily abused mechanic in the game and no PC or NPC is going to be allowed to take it without a damned good reason. Good at combat you say? Buy Skill Levels.

 

Hawksmoor

[radioKAOS]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Well there is the "buy the Weapon Element for each" school of thought, though that doesn't really balance things out...

 

Of course there's also the "pretidigitator" school of thought where the 4DCs at +2 would actually need you to purchase 12 MA DCs...

 

which seems to even it out a little better...

 

lol, of course, now we're arguing that MA is more powerful than straight STR, so I almost find this thread funny as we've been arguing the opposite for the past while... maybe, somehow in this wacky world of HERO, it's somehow balanced???

 

*shrug*

[Zed-F]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

I have said it before and here is the rehash:

 

Martial Arts are the most easily abused mechanic in the game and no PC or NPC is going to be allowed to take it without a damned good reason. Good at combat you say? Buy Skill Levels.

 

Hawksmoor

Bah.

 

Anything can be abused. Outright banning something just because it's possible to abuse it is silly, you'd have to ban the whole system and go pure Nar storytelling. Just use a little common sense and an eye for what fits in the game that's being run and what doesn't, and you're fine.

 

Obviously a MP of 1-point HAs would be silly. Under many circumstances, the 2d6 HA with several advantages on it and an extra 8 dice from STR, maneuvers, and extra DCs might not fit very well either. On the other hand, if other characters in the game are running around with 15+DC attacks... it probably won't really hurt anything (depending, of course, on exactly what advantages we're talking about here.) 10d6 attacks are barely enough to scratch foes that are built to stand up to 15d6 attacks.

 

Excercise judgement. If it fits, let the PC wear it. If not, throw it away.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

I have said it before and here is the rehash:

 

Martial Arts are the most easily abused mechanic in the game and no PC or NPC is going to be allowed to take it without a damned good reason. Good at combat you say? Buy Skill Levels.

 

Hawksmoor

 

You have a point! I think removing this particular ruling and limiting the amount of extra DCs you can buy (or saying simply 'no' to extra DCs) would go a long way to restoring balance.

 

Perhaps we are in a Star Wars analogy: Steve Long is The Chosen One who will bring balance to The Hero, but first he'll take it to a very dark place indeed (check out 5ERs cover: we are not on a journey to the light side!).

 

Mind you, if that is right, and Steve is Darth, who is The Emperor? George MacDonald? And R2D2 would be....er, I'll stop now, shall I?

[Zed-F]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

lol' date=' of course, now we're arguing that MA is more powerful than straight STR, so I almost find this thread funny as we've been arguing the opposite for the past while... maybe, somehow in this wacky world of HERO, it's somehow balanced??? [/quote']

I believe that was the point, yes...

[Sean Waters]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Bah.

 

Anything can be abused....

 

....Excercise judgement....

 

Oh I exercised it: it died of a heart attack. (Or was that when I was abusing it?)

[Zed-F]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Oh I exercised it: it died of a heart attack. (Or was that when I was abusing it?)

Probably the latter.

[ghost-angel]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Perhaps this is simply an arguement in favor of enforcing DC Caps in games? Sure, it may be cheaper - but that just means they have to buy more skills...

 

Surprisingly, not many characters take MA in our game... Maybe I'll start.

 

Of course - this may balance itself out point wise on a character sheet that an MA is by design a HtH fighter and should now purchase much higher Def. and many buy a higher Speed.

 

I don't think outright bannign a tactic like this is good - perhaps just keeping a very close eye on it and working with the player to keep everything in perspective to the game at hand.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

The problem seems to be, to me, that you can now make your martial arts armour piercing for just a few points, for example. Most martial artists don't have very high strength, so building a HA with advantages that covers the stregth side of it makes the whole attack have the advantage.

 

Cost wise, too, highly advantaged HA become real bargains with martail arts and added DCs...an example...

 

RedFist (blood soaked martial artist)

 

Strength 10 0 END (5 points)

Hand Attack 2d6 0 END NND Does BODY (35) HtH attack (23 points)

Martial arts (10 points to include martial strike)

+6 Damage Classes (24 points)

 

So total cost would be 62 points for a 10d6 NND punch that does BODY, adds 2 to DCV and doesn't cost any END. You could even do it cheaper, but what the heck. I trust I am not alone in wondering what in the name of BeeBop-A-LooBop is going on?

 

Look I appreciate that we should all be exercising natural restraint and no sane GM would allow this construct anyway, but why is it even here?

[Zed-F]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Because it may be appropriate for some advantages, and for some games.

 

A martial artist who can strike any opponent in a radius around him *before* they can strike at him is very in-genre for certain games. Ever seen Kill Bill, where The Bride fights the Crazy 88s? If she couldn't strike before them every time then there's no way she could have survived that fight. Even a 10d6 NND Does Body might be appropriate for certain Wuxia games, if the defense is common/in-genre enough.

 

You could build a character with 10d6 NND Does Body anyway. The only difference is how much it costs to do so, so there's no reason to get one's panties in a knot. If it doesn't fit in your Silver Age Champs game, fine, disallow it. It might be perfectly fine in Bob's Wuxia game.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Because it may be appropriate for some advantages, and for some games.

 

A martial artist who can strike any opponent in a radius around him *before* they can strike at him is very in-genre for certain games. Ever seen Kill Bill, where The Bride fights the Crazy 88s? If she couldn't strike before them every time then there's no way she could have survived that fight. Even a 10d6 NND Does Body might be appropriate for certain Wuxia games, if the defense is common/in-genre enough.

 

You could build a character with 10d6 NND Does Body anyway. The only difference is how much it costs to do so, so there's no reason to get one's panties in a knot. If it doesn't fit in your Silver Age Champs game, fine, disallow it. It might be perfectly fine in Bob's Wuxia game.

 

Hmm, the trouble with that approach is....

 

1. that, unless you have different guidelines for heroes and villains, the Crazy 88s can do that stuff too.

 

2. the ability to do something in-game is no the issue here, we appear to agree: we KNOW you can build some kind of area effect damage shield effect: the issue is how much it should cost. There is no justification I can think of for having that kind of power cost so little, whatever the genre, COMPARED to other powers.

 

In summary this is not about the ability to create an effct or even, really, about the cost of it: it is about the imbalance being able to do it this cheaply brings to The Force. I mean, The Game.

[radioKAOS]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

The problem seems to be, to me, that you can now make your martial arts armour piercing for just a few points, for example. Most martial artists don't have very high strength, so building a HA with advantages that covers the stregth side of it makes the whole attack have the advantage.

 

Cost wise, too, highly advantaged HA become real bargains with martail arts and added DCs...an example...

 

RedFist (blood soaked martial artist)

 

Strength 10 0 END (5 points)

Hand Attack 2d6 0 END NND Does BODY (35) HtH attack (23 points)

Martial arts (10 points to include martial strike)

+6 Damage Classes (24 points)

 

So total cost would be 62 points for a 10d6 NND punch that does BODY, adds 2 to DCV and doesn't cost any END. You could even do it cheaper, but what the heck. I trust I am not alone in wondering what in the name of BeeBop-A-LooBop is going on?

 

Look I appreciate that we should all be exercising natural restraint and no sane GM would allow this construct anyway, but why is it even here?

 

 

Granted, but what now? Not allowing the DCs to count at all seems to throw the favour way back towards STR again... The brick wielding a katana/staff/etc causes FAR more damage than a MA does with the same weapon? Not sure if I like that, and it's certainly not 'in genre.'

 

I'm really leaning towards prestidigitator's way of thinking re:"advantage graded DCs"... seems to be the fair way to do things, IMHO.

[ghost-angel]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

To answer the question of what it's doing there ... well, because the System is Non-Restrictive. The Game therefore has to be.

 

In a System that attempts to allow for anything certain really and type things are going to slip in. There are two places to control them - the System and the Game.

 

I perfer the Game, that way someone else can use it in their Game and I can not use it in mine or vice-versa.

[Fox1]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Perhaps we are in a Star Wars analogy: Steve Long is The Chosen One who will bring balance to The Hero' date=' but first he'll take it to a very dark place indeed (check out 5ERs cover: we are not on a journey to the light side!).[/quote']

 

I find great amusement in this comparison. But it's likely due to my low opinion of the newer Star Wars movies.

[prestidigitator]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

I'm really leaning towards prestidigitator's way of thinking re:"advantage graded DCs"... seems to be the fair way to do things' date=' IMHO.[/quote']

Yeah. Especially for Extra DCs purchased for Martial Arts, which increase the Base Damage. I'm pretty okay with CSLs and Maneuvers ignoring Advantages, as they are subject to the Doubling Rule and have various drawbacks: CSLs are two for one; Maneuvers have a maximum value and impose penalties. The was Str adds to Advantaged HAs is a little wacky, but I can probably live with it for now.

 

I posted a very specific question to Steve Long about this. See the Are Extra DCs for Martial Arts Affected by Advantages? thread on the Rules Questions board.

[Zed-F]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Hmm, the trouble with that approach is....

 

1. that, unless you have different guidelines for heroes and villains, the Crazy 88s can do that stuff too.

So? If it's in genre for O-Ren Ishii to have that sort of ability, why shouldn't she? This is a point in favour of these sorts of abilities being fine for campaigns in which they are appropriate, not a point against.

 

2. the ability to do something in-game is no the issue here, we appear to agree: we KNOW you can build some kind of area effect damage shield effect: the issue is how much it should cost. There is no justification I can think of for having that kind of power cost so little, whatever the genre, COMPARED to other powers.

Because a Wuxia game is supposed to be more about martial arts than it is about really ultra strong characters or about guys who can lob balls of fire? Those kinds of powers certainly can exist in Wuxia games, look at Ken and Ryu. But they're not genre-defining; the martial arts is. If you want everyone to have an over-the-top martial arts package and still be able to afford the points to take some signature abilities other than martial arts, this is one way to do it. Just draw the line where it's appropriate for the game you're running. It's really that simple.

[radioKAOS]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

I posted a very specific question to Steve Long about this. See the Are Extra DCs for Martial Arts Affected by Advantages? thread on the Rules Questions board.

 

Saw that, thanks, anxiously awaiting his reply...

[Sean Waters]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

So? If it's in genre for O-Ren Ishii to have that sort of ability' date=' why shouldn't she? This is a point in favour of these sorts of abilities being fine for campaigns in which they are appropriate, not a point against.[/quote']

 

A martial artist who can strike any opponent in a radius around him *before* they can strike at him is very in-genre for certain games. Ever seen Kill Bill' date=' where The Bride fights the Crazy 88s? If she couldn't strike before them every time then there's no way she could have survived that fight. Even a 10d6 NND Does Body might be appropriate for certain Wuxia games, if the defense is common/in-genre enough. [/quote']

 

The Bride is only better than them because that is how she is built: it is not a feature of the system

 

 

Because a Wuxia game is supposed to be more about martial arts than it is about really ultra strong characters or about guys who can lob balls of fire? Those kinds of powers certainly can exist in Wuxia games' date=' look at Ken and Ryu. But they're not genre-defining; the martial arts is. If you want everyone to have an over-the-top martial arts package and still be able to afford the points to take some signature abilities other than martial arts, this is one way to do it. Just draw the line where it's appropriate for the game you're running. It's really that simple.[/quote']

 

This is not a wuxia game. If you like this particular slant on martial arts I'd have no problem with it being included in an optional rule for wuxia games, but I strongly object to it being the baseline way of doing it in the 'generic' system. If you don't want poeple to do it, don't give them the option (cf Eden. That worked out well.)

[Sean Waters]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

To answer the question of what it's doing there ... well, because the System is Non-Restrictive. The Game therefore has to be.

 

In a System that attempts to allow for anything certain really and type things are going to slip in. There are two places to control them - the System and the Game.

 

I perfer the Game, that way someone else can use it in their Game and I can not use it in mine or vice-versa.

 

 

The system is restrictive, in oh so many ways. It has to be or it is not a system it is simple imaginative play or poor literature. Nothing against either but it is not why I bought Hero: I wanted a common meeting place for those imaginations. What the system does for me, is provide a range of balanced options, and allows me to adjust the balance if I want to.

 

Can you help me with this: why it should be so much cheaper, as far as charater creation points go, to cause damage this way than any other way? How does that help? By your own argument it is restricting every option other than martial arts: surely if you WANT people in game to favour MA over all other options, you should be doing what you suggest - restrict all the other options in your game, rather than having a system set up to do that from the word go.

[Zed-F]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

This is not a wuxia game.

It is if you want it to be.

 

If you like this particular slant on martial arts I'd have no problem with it being included in an optional rule for wuxia games, but I strongly object to it being the baseline way of doing it in the 'generic' system. If you don't want poeple to do it, don't give them the option (cf Eden. That worked out well.)

That is the way it is. I am not a proponent of house rules in general as I like a certain amount of portability in my character designs -- which I imagine is a common theme in PBEM play. If you like house rules, by all means change the way it behaves by default for your games. However, I don't think Steve is going to change the rules on your say-so. I build characters according to how the rules actually work, not according to how someone else might like them to work. After all, I don't know whose opinion I would be working off of until I actually submit that character to a game, now do I?

 

This form of potential munchkinism is not really any more difficult to control than a 1" megascaled superleap UAA. Moreover, it's useful from a point of view of balancing STR, when used in moderation. I'm just as happy to leave it there until Steve does decide to change his mind.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

The problem seems to be, to me, that you can now make your martial arts armour piercing for just a few points, for example. Most martial artists don't have very high strength, so building a HA with advantages that covers the stregth side of it makes the whole attack have the advantage.

 

Cost wise, too, highly advantaged HA become real bargains with martail arts and added DCs...an example...

 

RedFist (blood soaked martial artist)

 

Strength 10 0 END (5 points)

Hand Attack 2d6 0 END NND Does BODY (35) HtH attack (23 points)

Martial arts (10 points to include martial strike)

+6 Damage Classes (24 points)

 

So total cost would be 62 points for a 10d6 NND punch that does BODY, adds 2 to DCV and doesn't cost any END. You could even do it cheaper, but what the heck. I trust I am not alone in wondering what in the name of BeeBop-A-LooBop is going on?

 

Look I appreciate that we should all be exercising natural restraint and no sane GM would allow this construct anyway, but why is it even here?

 

Thats a simple fix!

 

I treat Hand Attack exactly as I treat Hand Killing Attack. You cannot add more DC's to the attack than the original base DC. Thus a 2D6 Hand Attack max's out at 4D6N.

 

You see, I don't have that problem of equating Hand Attack with Strength. I consider Hand Attack to be the normal damage equivalent to Hand Killing Attack, just as Energy Blast is the normal damage equivalent to Ranged Killing Attack. I don't even allow people to use that custom limitation Hand attack -1/2 because I think its silly.