A reason to play a 'straight' MA

[Zed-F]

We've had lots of posts in the past about how STR is 'better' than MA DC levels. In many ways this is arguably true. The figured characteristics, movement, casual STR, and lift/throw that STR gives are good stuff, no question, plus STR works with every maneuver you use, not just ones you bought. To balance that out MA levels are slightly cheaper, cost no END to use, and can boost certain martial maneuvers to give relatively inexpensive attacks that go against defenses other than straight PD.

 

For some, however, this may not be enough. So here's another plus in favour of the MA, in case you needed one. You can buy really inexpensive highly advantaged HAs and boost them easily with DC levels. It's much harder to do this with pure STR.

 

For example, let's take a Brick with 40 STR versus a MA with 10 STR, a +2 DC maneuver, and 4 extra DCs. Let's say we want our character to have a 'Whirlwind attack' that will hit anyone that comes within striking distance of him, even before an opponent can launch his own attack, and that he wants the attack to do 10d6 damage. Assuming the GM ok's the power in principle, we'll define this as a continuous AOE attack, as follows:

 

xd6 HA, Continuous (+1), 2" Radius [1 Hex Extended] Non-selective (+1/2), Personal Immunity (+1/4), 1/2 END Cost (+1/4), Hand Attack (-1/2)

 

For the brick to buy a power like this and get it to work for up to 10d6, he'll either have to buy all those advantages on his STR (not likely) or just buy the HA defined above as a 5d6 HA. That's 75 AP, and 50 RP. He can then add 25 STR to the HA to make it a 10d6 attack, without needing any advantages on his STR. Pretty good, all things considered; he's doubling the effective AP value of the HA just by using 25 STR.

 

The MA, on the other hand, can get away with a 2d6 HA, for only 30 AP and 20 RP. His STR of 10 will double that to 4d6, then the martial manuever will make it 6d6, and his extra DCs will make that 10d6. That's quintupling the value of the HA! It's true that the MA probably spent roughly the same amount of RP on his martial arts as the brick did on his extra STR. And it's true that the MA probably doesn't have nearly the STUN, REC, etc. that the Brick does. On the other hand, he can save a boatload of RP on his multipower of specialty HAs, compared to the equivalent in Brick Tricks, which offsets the lack of free figureds quite nicely.

 

So, sometimes it's good to be the MA instead of the brick.

[mikesama]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

The ont thing that makes martial damage classes really nice is martial NND and flash attacks.

 

Lets see, nerve strike and 4 DC = 4d6 NND.

[Zed-F]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Well, considering I can get the above continuous AoE HA for one point in a martial arts multipower, I'd hardly say the martial NND and flash attacks are the only thing that's nice about MAs.

[schir1964]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

...To balance that out MA levels are slightly cheaper' date=' cost no END to use...[/quote']

Clarification: Actually, any maneuver, including Martial Maneuver, costs 1 END to perform. The rules state this, though many miss it, and many who don't miss it, just ignore it. To paraphrase, the Minimum END Cost of an action is 1 END.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Zed-F]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

The DC levels, themselves, cost no END to use beyond the cost to exert the maneuver -- that's what I was referring to.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

We've had lots of posts in the past about how STR is 'better' than MA DC levels. In many ways this is arguably true. The figured characteristics, movement, casual STR, and lift/throw that STR gives are good stuff, no question, plus STR works with every maneuver you use, not just ones you bought. To balance that out MA levels are slightly cheaper, cost no END to use, and can boost certain martial maneuvers to give relatively inexpensive attacks that go against defenses other than straight PD.

 

For some, however, this may not be enough. So here's another plus in favour of the MA, in case you needed one. You can buy really inexpensive highly advantaged HAs and boost them easily with DC levels. It's much harder to do this with pure STR.

 

For example, let's take a Brick with 40 STR versus a MA with 10 STR, a +2 DC maneuver, and 4 extra DCs. Let's say we want our character to have a 'Whirlwind attack' that will hit anyone that comes within striking distance of him, even before an opponent can launch his own attack, and that he wants the attack to do 10d6 damage. Assuming the GM ok's the power in principle, we'll define this as a continuous AOE attack, as follows:

 

xd6 HA, Continuous (+1), 2" Radius [1 Hex Extended] Non-selective (+1/2), Personal Immunity (+1/4), 1/2 END Cost (+1/4), Hand Attack (-1/2)

 

For the brick to buy a power like this and get it to work for up to 10d6, he'll either have to buy all those advantages on his STR (not likely) or just buy the HA defined above as a 5d6 HA. That's 75 AP, and 50 RP. He can then add 25 STR to the HA to make it a 10d6 attack, without needing any advantages on his STR. Pretty good, all things considered; he's doubling the effective AP value of the HA just by using 25 STR.

 

The MA, on the other hand, can get away with a 2d6 HA, for only 30 AP and 20 RP. His STR of 10 will double that to 4d6, then the martial manuever will make it 6d6, and his extra DCs will make that 10d6. That's quintupling the value of the HA! It's true that the MA probably spent roughly the same amount of RP on his martial arts as the brick did on his extra STR. And it's true that the MA probably doesn't have nearly the STUN, REC, etc. that the Brick does. On the other hand, he can save a boatload of RP on his multipower of specialty HAs, compared to the equivalent in Brick Tricks, which offsets the lack of free figureds quite nicely.

 

So, sometimes it's good to be the MA instead of the brick.

 

I may have had too much beer, but hang on a second here...

 

First off he hits anyone who comes near him, friend or foe. That's just a design point, but...

 

Second I don't think that the martial manouvres/DCs are going to add to a constructed power like that. If not the basis of the thesis is flawed. Or my patchy knowledge is at fault again. Perhaps someone could clarify?

[Fox1]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Second I don't think that the martial manouvres/DCs are going to add to a constructed power like that. If not the basis of the thesis is flawed.

 

From my memory without my books near me, it doesn't work like that.

[Zed-F]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

I didn't think so either, originally. I was quoted the following earlier:

STR up to the base dice of an advantaged HA is added directly, and then the MA damage is added on top of that. See pages 406 (under Extra Damage Classes for Unarmed Martial Maneuvers), 407 near the bottom right and 408 of 5thER Revised.

 

As far as the whirlwind attack, the non-selective was indeed deliberate -- think of a guy who's spinning rapidly with outstretched blades, rather than someone performing individual strikes in a circle about him.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

...when you use a manoeuvre, yes, but I don't think you can 'automatically' use a manouuvre without having to take the time to do it, so I don't think your continuous HA can take advantage of any manouvres you may know.

 

I could be wrong.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

plus, the 10str doesnt' double 2d6 to 4d6, it makes it 2.5d6

[Zed-F]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

plus' date=' the 10str doesnt' double 2d6 to 4d6, it makes it 2.5d6[/quote']

Unless something changed in 5ER in this regard, which I very much doubt, that's incorrect. STR applied to HAs is not pro-rated, only STR applied to HKAs is.

[Zed-F]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

...when you use a manoeuvre, yes, but I don't think you can 'automatically' use a manouuvre without having to take the time to do it, so I don't think your continuous HA can take advantage of any manouvres you may know.

 

I could be wrong.

*shrug* The principle still applies. Just pick some other set of +2 worth of advantages and you'll get the same result.

[Roy_The_Ruthles]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Unless something changed in 5ER in this regard' date=' which I very much doubt, that's incorrect. STR applied to HAs is not pro-rated, only STR applied to HKAs is.[/quote']

 

oh right, it's a hand attack, i thought it was a hand killing attack. my fault

[Fox1]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

I didn't think so either' date=' originally. I was quoted the following earlier:[/quote']

 

So it seems.

 

I would still disallow it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

OK.

 

The rules for adding damage to advantaged HAs are poorly organised and explained. I assume you can not more than double the advantaged damage of the HA no matter the source of the added damage, but that really is not clear.

 

I will post a question for Mr Long.

[radioKAOS]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Clarification: Actually, any maneuver, including Martial Maneuver, costs 1 END to perform. The rules state this, though many miss it, and many who don't miss it, just ignore it. To paraphrase, the Minimum END Cost of an action is 1 END.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

Of course, without my book in front of me...

 

Does this mean that if I am a MA with 10 STR and I perfom a Quick strike, it costs me 2 END? 1 for the STR and one for the Move?

 

Or is it just that it would cost me 1 END even if I decided not to use any STR with the move?

 

 

Also, what if I don't really want to add more damage dice/already at the Damage cap for the campaign? Would I create it as a MP of naked advantages on STR? or create it as 1/2D6 or 1pip HtH with advantages?

[Sean Waters]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Of course, without my book in front of me...

 

Does this mean that if I am a MA with 10 STR and I perfom a Quick strike, it costs me 2 END? 1 for the STR and one for the Move?

 

Or is it just that it would cost me 1 END even if I decided not to use any STR with the move?

 

 

Also, what if I don't really want to add more damage dice/already at the Damage cap for the campaign? Would I create it as a MP of naked advantages on STR? or create it as 1/2D6 or 1pip HtH with advantages?

 

Martial manoeuvres do not cost END to use (5ER p 425) Normal manoueuvres use the strength cost for END or 1 END if it doesn't use STR, like block or dodge (same page reference). Presumably if your STR is bought to 0 END you do not have to spend 1 END to dodge, but that is not explicit.

 

I'm not sure what the second bit means.

[radioKAOS]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

The second bit was more of a design question. My MA is already the heaviest hitter in the campaign and I don't want to push that with the GM, but I would like to add some new abilities such as Affects Desolild or Armour Piercing... so how should I buy that? I have 5DCs and 15 STR, so with a Quick Strike I am already doing 10D6, and I don't want to go much higher than that. Buying even 1D6AP gives me 1D6HtH + 1D6 from STR, +5D6 from DCs, +2D6 Quick Strike= 9D6AP! That's a little high for this game I think, considering my 10D6 is the highest attack in the [<200pt] game so far.

 

 

Next I'm wondering if to even this all out you should be forced to buy a Weapon Element, perhaps even for each? [and yes I agree that's overcomplicating things, but it's quite the advantage to be able to use the bonuses from MA moves and your DCs 'free of charge']

 

I know it's not actually bought as a weapon, but it seems like you're adding a different 'element' to each attack this way, no?

[schir1964]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Some Maneuvers and other Actions don't have a listed STR value; in such cases, a character spends 1 END. This includes such Maneuvers as Block, Dodge, or firing a weapon.

Even if Martial Maneuvers themself don't cost endurance, any action a character makes must spend a minimum of 1 END. Now I haven't read the FAQ questions to see if any more clarification was made on this, but as I recall the last time Steve Long was asked, a minimum of 1 END must spent on an action.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Sean Waters]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Even if Martial Maneuvers themself don't cost endurance, any action a character makes must spend a minimum of 1 END. Now I haven't read the FAQ questions to see if any more clarification was made on this, but as I recall the last time Steve Long was asked, a minimum of 1 END must spent on an action.

 

Just A Clarification

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

I don't know, following that logic even powers at 0END would cost 1 END to use, which makes a mockery of the suggestion at page 457 that automatons might sell back END to 0 and use 0 END powers: they wouldn't be able to do anything.

 

I think 'doesn't cost END' has to mean just that, and martial arts don't cost END.

 

I could be wrong

[schir1964]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

I don't know' date=' following that logic even powers at 0END would cost 1 END to use, which makes a mockery of the suggestion at page 457 that automatons might sell back END to 0 and use 0 END powers: they wouldn't be able to do anything.[/quote']

Actions dude actions. Causing a blue beam to come out of your hand isn't an action, and I'm not talking about an attack either. You can use your powers for non-attacks and if they are bought Zero END, then they are Zero END. Turning on a power isn't an action. The quote I gave above was strictly speaking about non-power things, so I don't know how you made that connection. I guess I just didn't give enough context.

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Fox1]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

OK.

 

The rules for adding damage to advantaged HAs are poorly organised and explained. I assume you can not more than double the advantaged damage of the HA no matter the source of the added damage, but that really is not clear.

 

I will post a question for Mr Long.

 

I was thinking the same, however there isn't anything that says the limit applies to Martial Arts and the example given did limit STR bonus to 2x.

 

I think it's a rather important flaw in the rules. They really over complicated that section in order to make some things as easy as they should be (like adding to weapons with a stun bonus).

[prestidigitator]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

OK.

 

The rules for adding damage to advantaged HAs are poorly organised and explained. I assume you can not more than double the advantaged damage of the HA no matter the source of the added damage, but that really is not clear.

 

I will post a question for Mr Long.

Extra DCs bought for Martial Arts count as Base Damage (though this is specifically mentioned as a rule GMs may wish to exclude), and therefore do not count toward the doubling limit (in fact they increase the doubling limit). It is only the extra DCs of a particular maneuver and from Str, CSLs, etc. that cannot more than double the Base Damage.

 

However, I think that while CSLs, Martial Maneuvers, and Haymakers ignore Advantages, there is no suck clause for the extra DCs bought for Martial Arts (while such DCs only apply when using Martial Maneuvers, they are not maneuver damage). Therefore, to add the +4d6 in the example given, the total +2 Advantages on the HA (maybe Reduced End Cost should be excluded as it does not affect how damage is applied, but I'll ignore that for the moment so it is a nice even number) would require that the MA buy +12 DCs for Martial Arts. That's my understanding.

 

EDIT: However, since the extra Martial Arts DCs add to Base Damage, I think the MA could get away with using them to increase the HA to only 5d6, then use more Str, a stronger maneuver such as Offensive Strike, CSLs, etc., to get up to 10d6. That would require only buying +9 DCs (still reasonably expensive).

[prestidigitator]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

I don't know, following that logic even powers at 0END would cost 1 END to use, which makes a mockery of the suggestion at page 457 that automatons might sell back END to 0 and use 0 END powers: they wouldn't be able to do anything.

 

I think 'doesn't cost END' has to mean just that, and martial arts don't cost END.

 

I could be wrong

Agreed. I would probably rule myself that any Maneuver that is based on Str or Movement (Dive for Cover, but not Dodge, as Dodge does not require or allow the character to to enter a different hex as part of the Maneuver itself) costs a minimum of 1 End (unless said Str or Movement is itself bought to 0 End) even if you choose not to add Str or Movement to it. You are, in effect, using a very small amount of Str, and using Str at all costs at least 1 End, even if it is 2 Str, 0 Str, or -15 Str; likewise a Dive for Cover to place yourself in the way of an attack at another character will cost a minimum of 1 End (unless the Movement Power used for the DfC is bought to 0 End) bacause it is movement based, even if the attack itself is going through your hex so you don't have to use even 1" of Running, Leaping, or whatever.

 

Range attacks like EBs and RKAs (such as eyebeams) would not count unless they have the Strength Minimum Limitation. So if you buy an EB it will Cost End, but you can apply Reduced End Cost to eliminate this; applying a Strength Minimum Limitation to it would then again require you to use at least a little Str, so it would cost a minimum of 1 End unless you buy Reduced End Cost on your Str.

 

EDIT: Now what about a character that buys Reduced End Cost for only 1 point of Str? I don't know, but I wouldn't allow it anyway as it is obvious munchkinism.

[Zed-F]

Re: A reason to play a 'straight' MA

 

Extra DCs bought for Martial Arts count as Base Damage (though this is specifically mentioned as a rule GMs may wish to exclude), and therefore do not count toward the doubling limit (in fact they increase the doubling limit). It is only the extra DCs of a particular maneuver and from Str, CSLs, etc. that cannot more than double the Base Damage.

 

However, I think that while CSLs, Martial Maneuvers, and Haymakers ignore Advantages, there is no suck clause for the extra DCs bought for Martial Arts (while such DCs only apply when using Martial Maneuvers, they are not maneuver damage). Therefore, to add the +4d6 in the example given, the total +2 Advantages on the HA (maybe Reduced End Cost should be excluded as it does not affect how damage is applied, but I'll ignore that for the moment so it is a nice even number) would require that the MA buy +12 DCs for Martial Arts. That's my understanding.

 

EDIT: However, since the extra Martial Arts DCs add to Base Damage, I think the MA could get away with using them to increase the HA to only 5d6, then use more Str, a stronger maneuver such as Offensive Strike, CSLs, etc., to get up to 10d6. That would require only buying +9 DCs (still reasonably expensive).

 

Well, perhaps we can get an answer from Steve on what this is supposed to be, officially.