Japanese Literacy

[L. Marcus]

I've got The Twilight Samurai (Tasogare Seibei) playing in the living room right now, and there's a mention of girls not being required to learn to read as well as boys. That reminded me of GURPS Japan, where there's two levels of Literacy, one for the katakana and hiragana syllabaries, and one for those two and kanji characters.

 

Would you carry this over to Hero? Say, a one point Literacy lets you read the kana, and two points lets you read the kanji. If I ever get a Chanbara campaign up and running, I'm going to use this rule, because there's an advantage for fully literate characters.

 

Anyone got anything to add?

 

Oh, and by the way, see that movie. Good period drama, and two kick-*** fight scenes.

[OddHat]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

In modern Japan, that is not the case. I haven't seen Twighlight Samurai; is it a modern setting? Historiacally, women were not permitted to learn Kanji.

 

Literacy is not worth all that much in most games; I wouldn't charge more than one point for it. I'd let female native speakers of nihingo in a historical campaign learn Kana for free and pay one point for Kanji.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

TS is a a jidai geki, taking place a few years before the Restoration. I think it won the Best Foreign Academy Award in -04.

 

In such a setting, like sengoku jidai or Edo period, I'd charge points as above.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

If I remember correctly - I can't find my history of Hiragana information handily, that character set was invented by a woman so that they could learn to read without angering the Patriarchal society, thus giving birth to pillow books.

 

So, your assessment for the period you want to play in seems accurate enough. Before Meiiji Period I don't think they were allowed to learn Kanji at all and any they did learn was on the sneak.

[yamamura]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

Yes it is a good movie go rent it people!!! IIRC (it has been 3 month since I seen it), the school the girls were going to had a lot of progressive ideas for the time period and so it was strange to certain people having girls being able to read the classics.

 

But I think you bring up an interesting point about learning Japanese even in a modern setting. English has one alphabet, but the Japanese has 3 depending on what is being written. I guess the main question to ask is whether or not increasing the cost to be fully literate is justified? If it is then I say go ahead and add the increased cost. On the other hand if you feel that all that it accomplishes is cost inflation, avoid it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

Yes it is a good movie go rent it people!!! IIRC (it has been 3 month since I seen it), the school the girls were going to had a lot of progressive ideas for the time period and so it was strange to certain people having girls being able to read the classics.

 

But I think you bring up an interesting point about learning Japanese even in a modern setting. English has one alphabet, but the Japanese has 3 depending on what is being written. I guess the main question to ask is whether or not increasing the cost to be fully literate is justified? If it is then I say go ahead and add the increased cost. On the other hand if you feel that all that it accomplishes is cost inflation, avoid it.

 

Techincally Katakana and Hiragana are different ways of writing the same alphabet. Katakana is used for children and writing forgeign words. Hiragana is used when one doesn't know, or doesn't want to use, Kanji. You'll see Hiragana on street signs/advertisement because there are still a lot of people who don't know all the Kanji and everyone knows Hiragana. In most cases, YMMV, deepending on the situation... yadda yadda.. it's language - the rules do not apply.

 

Depending on the time period/campaign costing could go as follows:

1 point for Hiragana (and Katakana) and an additional 1 point for Kanji.

1 point for all of them.

0 points, full literacy is automatic.

[yamamura]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

Techincally Katakana and Hiragana are different ways of writing the same alphabet. Katakana is used for children and writing forgeign words. Hiragana is used when one doesn't know, or doesn't want to use, Kanji. You'll see Hiragana on street signs/advertisement because there are still a lot of people who don't know all the Kanji and everyone knows Hiragana. In most cases, YMMV, deepending on the situation... yadda yadda.. it's language - the rules do not apply.

 

Depending on the time period/campaign costing could go as follows:

1 point for Hiragana (and Katakana) and an additional 1 point for Kanji.

1 point for all of them.

0 points, full literacy is automatic.

 

I was thinking that hiragana and katakana were close enough to be considered being fluent in both but I couldn't remember for sure.

[Black Rose]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

I was thinking that hiragana and katakana were close enough to be considered being fluent in both but I couldn't remember for sure.

I'd say the difference between hiragana and katakana are not so very much greater than the ones between printed and written Roman characters (used in English and other fine languages - maybe yours too!). From what I've seen of Japanese people writing Japanese, the handwriting variations seem to be next to none - penmanship is heavily emphasised. So you have, effectively, one alphabet with two rather similar ways of expressing it.

 

Then you have Kanji, which bears no relation to much of anything, IMO. And no, I really don't see the base concepts forming the structure - beyond things like field and roof I get completely confused, and just go with "it looks like this because it does, I'll deal." Kanji isn't even an alphabet, it's like a fully structured word format that the Japanese borrowed long ago and put to their own needs over the centuries. I think it qualifies as its own literacy, and I think you need to get H/K Literacy first - you're simply not going to be even starting to think in Japanese enough to grasp kanji if you're not fluent in H/K.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

I'd say the difference between hiragana and katakana are not so very much greater than the ones between printed and written Roman characters (used in English and other fine languages - maybe yours too!). From what I've seen of Japanese people writing Japanese, the handwriting variations seem to be next to none - penmanship is heavily emphasised. So you have, effectively, one alphabet with two rather

similar ways of expressing it.

The closeness is better expressed as simlpe handwriting and cursive. But even that doesn't quite cover it. Katakana is taught first, to teach children the language and how to write. After that Hiragana is used (I don't know the cut off, but from 8 years old or so you shouldn't be using Katakana for Japanese words anymore.) However - Katakana is expressly used for foreign words, by everyone including adults. Things like Coffee & Beer (cohi & biiru, respectively) are both spelled using the Katakana Character Set because they aren't Japanese words or concepts. They're almost as bad as the French when it comes to forgeign influence on their language.

 

 

Then you have Kanji' date=' which bears no relation to much of anything, IMO. And no, I really don't see the base concepts forming the structure - beyond things like field and roof I get completely confused, and just go with "it looks like this because it does, I'll deal." Kanji isn't even an alphabet, it's like a fully structured word format that the Japanese borrowed long ago and put to their own needs over the centuries. I think it qualifies as its own literacy, and I think you need to get H/K Literacy first - you're simply not going to be even starting to think in Japanese enough to grasp kanji if you're not fluent in H/K.[/quote']

The Japanese took Kanji from the Chinese thus giving them a written language, sometime later a Japanese woman invented Hiragana so women could learn to read and write without incurring a death penalty.

 

Kanji are built upon 23 (If I remember correctly, I'm at work and not near my dictionary) Base Shapes/Lines (dammit, I forget what they call them). Once you can identify those 23 Objects you will see there is a definite pattern to Kanji. Well, most Kanji, there's always random stuff thrown in there to foil any linguist. It's built from an Idoegraph system developed by the Koreans.

 

You don't need to learn Hiragana or Katakana to learn Kanji at all. Though it most certainly helps a great deal - especiialy coming from the outside. The biggest problem people, especially English speakers, have with Japanese is that there are only 108 Phonetic Sounds in Japanese, compared to well over 500 (could be over 700) in English. That's a big big difference. For an English speaker to visualize those 108 sounds in a set of charactes (like our alphabet) helps a great deal in understanding how to speak Japanese. But won't help you squat in learning Kanji at all, just pronouncing it.

[Black Rose]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

The closeness is better expressed as simlpe handwriting and cursive. But even that doesn't quite cover it. Katakana is taught first' date=' to teach children the language and how to write. After that Hiragana is used (I don't know the cut off, but from 8 years old or so you shouldn't be using Katakana for Japanese words anymore.) However - Katakana is expressly used for foreign words, by everyone including adults. Things like Coffee & Beer (cohi & biiru, respectively) are both spelled using the Katakana Character Set because they aren't Japanese words or concepts. They're almost as bad as the French when it comes to forgeign influence on their language.[/quote']

You know, I actually knew this? I was going to mention this, but for some reason I didn't put it in. Weird. I also knew about Kana being used for foreign words - gotta love one semester of Japanese and too many years being an anime fan.

 

The Japanese took Kanji from the Chinese thus giving them a written language, sometime later a Japanese woman invented Hiragana so women could learn to read and write without incurring a death penalty.

 

Kanji are built upon 23 (If I remember correctly, I'm at work and not near my dictionary) Base Shapes/Lines (dammit, I forget what they call them). Once you can identify those 23 Objects you will see there is a definite pattern to Kanji. Well, most Kanji, there's always random stuff thrown in there to foil any linguist. It's built from an Idoegraph system developed by the Koreans.

 

You don't need to learn Hiragana or Katakana to learn Kanji at all. Though it most certainly helps a great deal - especiialy coming from the outside. The biggest problem people, especially English speakers, have with Japanese is that there are only 108 Phonetic Sounds in Japanese, compared to well over 500 (could be over 700) in English. That's a big big difference. For an English speaker to visualize those 108 sounds in a set of charactes (like our alphabet) helps a great deal in understanding how to speak Japanese. But won't help you squat in learning Kanji at all, just pronouncing it.

When I said you needed H/K to learn Kanji, I meant they make reading the relevant texts easier. Often, I've seen Kanji used in a mag or manga and, for the ease of people who can't read Kanji, they have the appropriate Hiragana in small type overhead. Being able to read certain "words" while you're still learning their meanings and how to understand their use is a boon.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

When I said you needed H/K to learn Kanji' date=' I meant they make reading the relevant texts easier. Often, I've seen Kanji used in a mag or manga and, for the ease of people who can't read Kanji, they have the appropriate Hiragana in small type overhead. Being able to read certain "words" while you're still learning their meanings and how to understand their use is a boon.[/quote']

In that context, yes it is an extremely useful tool.

[yamamura]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

Base Shapes/Lines (dammit' date=' I forget what they call them).[/quote']

 

Strokes?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

Strokes?

probably .. there's an actual term for the base form of a Kanji.

 

HA!

 

Base Form.

 

When looking up Kanji you have to find the Base Form which is from 2-22 strokes. depending.

 

somedays, i r stoopid

[radioKAOS]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

probably .. there's an actual term for the base form of a Kanji.

 

HA!

 

Base Form.

 

When looking up Kanji you have to find the Base Form which is from 2-22 strokes. depending.

 

somedays, i r stoopid

 

So how many points does this base form have to put into multiform to become the full language?

 

Ok, Ok... kill me now.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

So how many points does this base form have to put into multiform to become the full language?

 

Ok, Ok... kill me now.

 

2.5763 experience points. On a sliding scale. with a chery on top. Only after GM approval. On odd tuesdays.

[Korvar]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

Kanji are built upon 23 (If I remember correctly, I'm at work and not near my dictionary) Base Shapes/Lines (dammit, I forget what they call them).

 

Radicals.

 

(Advantage of Dad knowing Japanese quite well).

[BNakagawa]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

probably .. there's an actual term for the base form of a Kanji.

 

HA!

 

Base Form.

 

When looking up Kanji you have to find the Base Form which is from 2-22 strokes. depending.

 

 

Hmm, I was tought that they were called radicals and there were 214 of them ranging from 1 to 17 strokes.

 

Then again, some of these radicals looked somewhat different depending on if they formed the right, left, upper or lower sections of composite kanji.

 

BMN

[ghost-angel]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

Hmm, I was tought that they were called radicals and there were 214 of them ranging from 1 to 17 strokes.

 

Then again, some of these radicals looked somewhat different depending on if they formed the right, left, upper or lower sections of composite kanji.

 

BMN

You're right ... finally got smart and just pulled out my Japanese/English Dictionary. I always called them Base Form because that's how I was taught, look for the Base Form and work from there. Of course, it's been almost ten years since I studied the language with any level of seriousness and one forgets languages one doesn't use...

 

214 Radicals, using from 1-17 strokes. There ya go.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

The closeness is better expressed as simlpe handwriting and cursive. But even that doesn't quite cover it. Katakana is taught first' date=' to teach children the language and how to write. After that Hiragana is used (I don't know the cut off, but from 8 years old or so you shouldn't be using Katakana for Japanese words anymore.) However - Katakana is expressly used for foreign words, by everyone including adults. Things like Coffee & Beer (cohi & biiru, respectively) are both spelled using the Katakana Character Set because they aren't Japanese words or concepts. They're almost as bad as the French when it comes to forgeign influence on their language.[/quote']

No one beats the icelanders. At least the japanese keeps the loanword almost intact (konpyuta - computer). Those half-mad vikings in the Atlantic made up an entirely new word - völva, I think it is; derived from the ancient word for seeress, fortune teller.

 

And for the record, in a modern campaign I'd rule that japanese natives get Literacy with the sylabaries and the kanji for free, and that any non-natives has to pay one point for the same . . .

 

Anyway, I wouldn't charge points for Literacy if a character already has it for a language that uses the same way of writing.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

No one beats the icelanders. At least the japanese keeps the loanword almost intact (konpyuta - computer). Those half-mad vikings in the Atlantic made up an entirely new word - völva' date=' I think it is; derived from the ancient word for seeress, fortune teller.[/quote']

The French did the same "Ordinateur" for computer ... WTF.. really. This is why I stopped speaking French. I am now moving onto German which is garaunteed to break my jaw. Russian was fun but I never grokked the Alphabet enough to learn to properly write and read it (I could speak it fine), so I gave up.

 

...I have a bad habit of giving up on languages...

[L. Marcus]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

The French did the same "Ordinateur" for computer ... WTF.. really. This is why I stopped speaking French. I am now moving onto German which is garaunteed to break my jaw. Russian was fun but I never grokked the Alphabet enough to learn to properly write and read it (I could speak it fine), so I gave up.

 

...I have a bad habit of giving up on languages...

. . . Ever tried swedish . . . ?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

. . . Ever tried swedish . . . ?

I'd try Norwegian first, but only because I'm a good chunk Norwegian in my ancestry.

 

Of course, both of those languages are designed to cause physical and mental anguish to anyone attempting to learn them that aren't native.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

I'd try Norwegian first, but only because I'm a good chunk Norwegian in my ancestry.

 

Of course, both of those languages are designed to cause physical and mental anguish to anyone attempting to learn them that aren't native.

Yup . . .

 

But if you ever give it a shot, you're almost learning three languages at once! Someone once said that norwegian is danish pronounced in swedish.

 

Trencher's gonna have my tongue over that for sure . . .

[ghost-angel]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

Yup . . .

 

But if you ever give it a shot, you're almost learning three languages at once! Someone once said that norwegian is danish pronounced in swedish.

 

Trencher's gonna have my tongue over that for sure . . .

That's the best description of Norwegian I've ever heard ... could be worse, we have an old Family History in Old Norwegian which is so foreign that even mordern Norwegians can't decipher it, we had to hire a historical specialist to translate the thing.

 

I'll avoid the vikings for now.

[L. Marcus]

Re: Japanese Literacy

 

I'm a little foggy on the details, but there's at least two ways to speak and write norwegian - bokmål and nynorsk, book tongue and new norwegian. One is more related to swedish and danish than the other, but I don't know which . . .

 

Edit: Wikipedia's Norwegian language entry.