Disadvantage

[sinanju]

Re: Disadvantage

 

One heretical way to deal with them' date=' of course, is to cut the number of points that come from disadvantages. Say cut them right down: they don't need [b']any[/b] disad points at all - standard supers get 350 base points. Allow the players to take some if they like, and say that their XP awards are doubled until the books balance, so, you have a 350 point character with 100 points of disads - their first 50 points of XP will count double.

 

I like this a lot. I've created a lot of characters to submit to online games, and typically they have 150 points worth of Disads, with a limit of 50 points in any one category. I hate that. I can pile on Psychs and Social Limitations all day--I use them to flesh out the character's personality. But I quickly hit the limit on those and then have to hunt around for the least troublesome mix of other things I can invent.

 

Just limiting it to 100 points of Disads and/or no cap on a particular category (though of course the GM is free to reject Fugitive Guy and his 150 points worth of Hunteds) would go a long way toward making ME a happy camper. And in the end, that's what matters, right?

[Black Rose]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Up front, I'm going to say that, IMX, tesuji and I have a difference in gaming philosophies. Normally I don't agree with what he says. Since my own opinions are just that, and since it usually seems that tesuji has thought his position out pretty clearly, I don't bother saying anything.

 

However....

On the point cost for disads... its all about what the Gm is gonna do. When i agree to allow 20 pts for a and 20 pts for b i am telling both players i will (ab)use this equally on them. if i don't feel i will be able to do so, i change a cost.

 

the points aren't "right" as they sit in the book. The Gm runs his game and his scenario choices make it look like the points are right, or not.

I agree with this. As far as I'm concerned, whatever you, the player, decide you want as a value in re: Limitations and Disadvantages is a declaration of exactly how much you want to be hosed by said Limitations and Disadvantages. If you say "Doesn't Work In Water/Very Humid Conditions; -1" then I feel you want to be hosed by this Limitation a lot. If you said "Doesn't Work In Water/Very Humid Conditions; -1/4" you're saying you want it to come up once in a while, but not be a major factor; more of an aggravation.

 

As for how much disad, i found dropping disads from 150 to 100 worked better and i would go to only 50 pts from disads in my next hero game. more than that and players are starting to be taking them "for the points" IMX

 

The option i prefer to this method (loan shark disads) is the pay-as-you-go.

 

In pay-as-you-go, you don't get points up front for disads. Instead, whenever disads BITE in a scenario, you get a bonus. Some games give you bonbus Xp for the session while others give hero points.

 

this means you don't NEED to take any, you dont have to worry in advance about how frequent and severe (use HINDSIGHT not FORESIGHT) and you really do not have to script for balance... just script what you want and the reward and punishment will flow together like as if by magic

 

one final edge here, the PLAYER is encouraged by Payp to look at disads which will show obvious and meaningful problems in play, because that has to be seen for him to get pts. That puts he and the Gm in harmony, not at odds as much as the current.

This is truly evil, tesuji, and I utterly love it. Just as you say, it encourages the player to not only come up with Disads they will play, but Disads that will be a PITA so they can get the extra XP. Out of curiosity, what would you suggest as a good guideline for the XP bonuses?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Disadvantage

 

But inflicting pain is the result of some of those disads, like say double damage from purple dinosaurs.

 

Looking at the rules from a munshkinish prospective, the thought does occur, why take something that will hurt me, when I can take something that will hurt everyone. If you knock out one character, thats fine, but the DM can't toss a hunted at a group which will take everyone out, he would just have to cut back elsewhere.

 

If anything, perhaps having a hunted could be a 0 pointer, in any scenerio you can only do so much fighting till you go under, having hunteds just gives a DM ideas what to throw at you.

Eh! If a Hunted is More Powerful, then generally they will be able to rally enough firepower or followers to be more powerful than the combined PCs (or whoever/whatever they must surmount to ruin the day of the PC with the Hunted). While they might not balk at hurting the friends of the person with the Disadvantage, their primary goal is to get at that person. There's nothing keeping multiple PCs from taking the same Hunted....

[prestidigitator]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Another Technique:

 

Require the players to take a "YTBD Disadvantage" at whatever level you think appropriate.

 

YTBD = Yet To Be Determined

 

These points have no effect initially. The the campaign progresses the GM can determine if the characters have obtained a Hunted via combat with villian(s) or perhaps they have acquired a Social: Reputation.

I've done this at times. I also allow players to take additional Disadvantages over the course of a campaign (and get points for them) as long as they are creative about it. That doesn't mean I won't also pound them with situational Disadvantages that give them no points, of course.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Eh! If a Hunted is More Powerful' date=' then generally they will be able to rally enough firepower or followers to be more powerful than the combined PCs (or whoever/whatever they must surmount to ruin the day of the PC with the Hunted). While they might not balk at hurting the friends of the person with the Disadvantage, their primary goal is to get at that person. There's nothing keeping multiple PCs from taking the same Hunted....[/quote']

This is a very good point. In one of our Campaign Worlds there are a series of Hunteds/Watched that any PC is allowed to take if they so wish, those being the local police force (Watched), the Anti-Paranormal groups (there's a wing of Green Peace in our world that is very anti-mutant) and a few other Secret Societies the PCs are never aware of but the GM usually uses some arm of to manipulate the PCs around occasionally.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Disadvantage

 

My only problem with YTBD is that Disads also are important in defining the PC and their motivations. Not only the players have to roleplay. So do GMs. Knowing that characters are overconfident' date=' or honorable or hate spiders, or distrustful of men is important to a GM designing a universe.[/quote']

True, but one of the fun things about starting a relatively long-standing campaign--especially a low-powered one--is to start out with characters that are not yet fully developed; they don't yet know who they are, what they want out of the world, what their potentials and weaknesses are. You can argue that this kind of campaign should just start with few Base Points and few Disadvantages, but you can also throw in some unknowns that develop quickly through story more than slow character growth.

 

This is what a lot of fantasy novels and other books tend to feel like. The Recluse series by L.E. Modesitt Jr. feels like this in the extreme, for example. The main characters typically start as nobodies, but nobodies that you can empathize with; nobodies that feel like people and from who's perspective you can really see the fantasy world. Over time--sometimes quickly and sometimes gradually--they discover their amazing potential, their fears and desires, etc. The Shannara series by Terry Brooks is another good example.

 

Sometimes experience awards just don't seem sufficient for this. I have, at times, actually increased the number of Base Points and maximum Disadvantage Points from an initially low number to a mid- or high value over the course of weeks of real-time gaming, but this isn't much different from assigning, "unknowns," at the beginning of the campaign.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Disadvantage

 

I have long maintained that the Dependence rules are hobbled to the point of uselessness.

 

I'd hate to be aquaguy in the desert, but according to the rules needing to be completely immersed in salt water 1 hour out of every 24 isn't a limit worth mentioning.

 

Fiction (especially comics and anime) are filled with characters that need to do something every day or dire things happen. This sounds like a depencence to me, but under current rules it is worth nothing.

 

Thats right. Nothing. Buying any amount of damage or effect far enough up the time chart as to not kill you in 3 phases results in the disad not being worth anything.

No kidding! I've felt this way for a long time! And somehow it just feels so wrong to create a Physical Limitation that is worth far more than the equivalent Dependence would be. WTF!?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Actually, as long as both the players and GMs know what they are in for up front, I don't have any problem at all with this method. Sounds like a fun approach.

 

The genesis type games can be fun occasionally, but one of the best parts of Champions and Hero, IMHO is that unlike the "other " game system, a new Hero player character can have enough background and expertise not to be "Frist level' or a novice/rookie. Thus, under this origin, not only do the PCs know what their heroes can do, they are darn good at it too.

 

You are spot on about the need for trust between players and GM in either approach, though.

There is also nothing wrong with starting out a game with a mix of the different types of character: some who know exactly what they can do and are well developed and fleshed out characters, and some who have some personal exploration to do before they are fully aware of their abilities and personalities. Hard to do that in D&D [EDIT: without the players feeling gypped and resentful] !!!

[prestidigitator]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Hunted is an ADVANTAGE' date=' not a disadvantage. If you’re playing a RPG, you’re GOING to have enemies. All Hunted does, most of the time, is insure that you know who some of those enemies are beforehand, and that you personally will get a disproportionate amount of story-time dealing with them.[/quote']

Ah, but the enemies you make through story are Disadvantages. They are just Disadvantages for which you get no points!

[Vanguard00]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Hunted is an ADVANTAGE, not a disadvantage. If you’re playing a RPG, you’re GOING to have enemies. All Hunted does, most of the time, is insure that you know who some of those enemies are beforehand, and that you personally will get a disproportionate amount of story-time dealing with them.

 

Free camera-time is NOT a disadvantage. And if they’re too tough, the rest of the party can deal with them for you.

I disagree, and I think my example earlier helps illustrate why. If the GM is unable or unwilling to use a Hunted as an effective disadvantage, then it's the fault of the GM and not the rules. Hunteds aren't just known wandering monsters--they're effective tools for creating obstacles for PCs to overcome.

 

Let's say you're Hunted by VIPER, as many heroes seem to be. Big deal, right? VIPER hunts all heroes more or less. That's all well and good until VIPER drops a dime on your character just before he takes on DEMON. Heck, VIPER doesn't even like DEMON, but to get rid of the PC they're probably willing to mention the fact that they've had good luck using electricity against him (assuming a vulnerability to electricity; substitute whatever works).

 

Perhaps you're hunted by Ripper. Right in the middle of a good fight between the PC team and the Ultimates, word reaches the PC that Ripper is on the loose and wreaking havoc. 'Well,' you think, 'someone else will just have to handle it.' Where is Ripper, by the way? Oh, that's right--he's right by where your DNPC works, not too far from where you are now (thus ensuring that the PC is the closest response to that threat). Wham! Two disads used, and if the PC bails on the current fight to go after his hunted and save his DNPC, his team might lose against the Ultimates.

 

Sounds like a disad to me.

 

Use intelligence, imagination and forethought when dealing with disadvantages and a GM can always get full value out of 'em.

 

Now, an utter bastard like myself will make you actually suffer for your hunteds, but that requires a looser playing style than a lot of GMs use.

If you're going after your PCs' disads with the proverbial 'vengeance' then you're doing yourself and your players a disservice (and I use 'you' to mean any GM, not just Ura-Maru).

 

Most of my games used 100 or 125 points of disads, instead of 150. I’ve found that even experienced players tend to start reaching after the first hundred, and newbies even more so.

Point variation of Disads required is probably the best method I've seen for dealing with abused and abusive disads in general, but again, even with 150 pts of required Disads I usually find myself having to trim a couple of rolls here and there to bring the total UNDER the cap. I've also been known to add disads for no points, simply because they're appropriate. Not often, but it has been done.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Disadvantage

 

The option i prefer to this method (loan shark disads) is the pay-as-you-go.

 

In pay-as-you-go, you don't get points up front for disads. Instead, whenever disads BITE in a scenario, you get a bonus. Some games give you bonbus Xp for the session while others give hero points.

 

this means you don't NEED to take any, you dont have to worry in advance about how frequent and severe (use HINDSIGHT not FORESIGHT) and you really do not have to script for balance... just script what you want and the reward and punishment will flow together like as if by magic

 

one final edge here, the PLAYER is encouraged by Payp to look at disads which will show obvious and meaningful problems in play, because that has to be seen for him to get pts. That puts he and the Gm in harmony, not at odds as much as the current.

 

Splendid idea. Like this a lot.

[Mentor]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Ah' date=' but the enemies you make through story [i']are[/i] Disadvantages. They are just Disadvantages for which you get no points!

Or, you can swap them within the game itself. We have allowed players to dump one Hunted, by defeating them, and picking up another, who because of the game situation, started off as a normal villain, but this time its personal. Work it in to the campaign and everbody comes out ahead.

[Vanguard00]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Or' date=' you can swap them within the game itself. We have allowed players to dump one Hunted, by defeating them, and picking up another, who because of the game situation, started off as a normal villain, but this time its personal. Work it in to the campaign and everbody comes out ahead.[/quote']

That's a good point, and one I should've mentioned in my own examples.

 

In past games we've had no problems changing or altering disads to fit the campaign, including the substitution of Hunteds (if it fit the story). I don't believe Disads were meant to be static, but most of us (myself included most of the time) rarely change them unless it's to buy them off.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Disadvantage

 

The option i prefer to this method (loan shark disads) is the pay-as-you-go.

 

In pay-as-you-go, you don't get points up front for disads. Instead, whenever disads BITE in a scenario, you get a bonus. Some games give you bonbus Xp for the session while others give hero points.

 

this means you don't NEED to take any, you dont have to worry in advance about how frequent and severe (use HINDSIGHT not FORESIGHT) and you really do not have to script for balance... just script what you want and the reward and punishment will flow together like as if by magic

 

one final edge here, the PLAYER is encouraged by Payp to look at disads which will show obvious and meaningful problems in play, because that has to be seen for him to get pts. That puts he and the Gm in harmony, not at odds as much as the current.

 

Oh yeah... I like this too. I may just use this for my new game.

 

Can we get some suggestions as to what rewards the characters may get when they have faced and 'defeated' one of their disads in a game?

 

Now, what if a character runs into, say 5 of his disads in one game? How do you reward that? Is it a 1 XP/disad faced in each game? Or only if the disad was successfully dealt with? [i remember in Rolemaster you also got XP for any critcals you took - from pain comes knowledge, interesting view I thought]

 

Are some disads worth more than others in terms of rewards? Minor and Major? Who determines the severity, player of GM? At creation, or situationally?

 

Rep'd by the way.

[Black Rose]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Now' date=' what if a character runs into, say 5 of his disads in one game? How do you reward that? Is it a 1 XP/disad faced in each game? Or only if the disad was successfully dealt with? [i remember in Rolemaster you also got XP for any critcals you took - from pain comes knowledge, interesting view I thought']

I'd say, unless the character got really hosed by all five, only the most unpleasant counts fully, and all the others count at half, if at all. Or you might just say "Two XP for RPing the babbling shyness around Wonder Lass, Dork Buy, and another for the rest of your Disads that came up. Total four. Now for you, Stud Monkey...."

 

Are some disads worth more than others in terms of rewards? Minor and Major? Who determines the severity' date=' player of GM? At creation, or situationally?[/quote']

I think the Player should define them as he sees them, then the GM should go over them and decide if he's willing to bring them up the way the player thinks they will be. Using tesuji's method, you-the-player can come up with whatever off-the-wall crap you like - if it don't come up, you don't get the XP for it. You have to come up with interesting Disads, ones the GM wants to exploit.

[Mentor]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Oh yeah... I like this too. I may just use this for my new game.

 

Can we get some suggestions as to what rewards the characters may get when they have faced and 'defeated' one of their disads in a game?

 

Now, what if a character runs into, say 5 of his disads in one game? How do you reward that? Is it a 1 XP/disad faced in each game? Or only if the disad was successfully dealt with? [i remember in Rolemaster you also got XP for any critcals you took - from pain comes knowledge, interesting view I thought]

 

Are some disads worth more than others in terms of rewards? Minor and Major? Who determines the severity, player of GM? At creation, or situationally?

 

Rep'd by the way.

I can see this method working with Hunteds or Vulnerability, but PsychLims, Physical Disabilities, and Secret IDs pretty much always affect how the character is played anyway.

 

OTOH, rwarding the player for superior roleplying, properly executing his PC in the face of 5 of their Disads, for example, is fair enough.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Disadvantage

 

I can see this method working with Hunteds or Vulnerability, but PsychLims, Physical Disabilities, and Secret IDs pretty much always affect how the character is played anyway.

 

OTOH, rwarding the player for superior roleplying, properly executing his PC in the face of 5 of their Disads, for example, is fair enough.

Ah, but you can roleplay your player acquiring a PsychLim due to a really traumatic experience or such. Then the more situations you can find to have your character dramatically affected by it, or roleplay fighting it off in a creative way that adds well to the story and life of the characters....

[Mentor]

Re: Disadvantage

 

Ah' date=' but you can roleplay your player [i']acquiring[/i] a PsychLim due to a really traumatic experience or such. Then the more situations you can find to have your character dramatically affected by it, or roleplay fighting it off in a creative way that adds well to the story and life of the characters....

OK, cool. That would actually work really well in some cases.

[Lumbering Ox]

Re: Disadvantage

 

I had a character who because of a massive run of good fortune [routing armies due to takeing out other sides hero etc] that his overconfidence unknown to the Gm grew from moderate to total. Then Mr Dragon showed up, Moderate confidence which the GM thought I was still running on means running away. When he pointed that out, I said it "was" moderate.

 

Oddly enough I actually thought I might of had a chance, single shot aim for the head, decked out with magic like an Xmas tree... but alas I missed the role by a tiny bit and ended up toast. Sigh.

 

Ah the joys of solo caimpaings, when you don't have to consider the health of the party you are not in.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Disadvantage

 

So then, what if a player wants no disads at all?

 

Are XP rewards based solely on RPing your disads? How do we balance between those rewards, and the way XP is set up now?

 

Do we require a certain amount of disads for each character?

[zornwil]

Re: Disadvantage

 

On the point cost for disads... its all about what the Gm is gonna do. When i agree to allow 20 pts for a and 20 pts for b i am telling both players i will (ab)use this equally on them. if i don't feel i will be able to do so, i change a cost.

 

the points aren't "right" as they sit in the book. The Gm runs his game and his scenario choices make it look like the points are right, or not.

 

The same thing works for most any power or SFX. If the Gm decides the primary villains are a werewolf cult, mr silver sword slinger is probably gonna do better than mr lightning UNLESS the Gm actively works to prevent this, also by script control.

 

As for how much disad, i found dropping disads from 150 to 100 worked better and i would go to only 50 pts from disads in my next hero game. more than that and players are starting to be taking them "for the points" IMX

 

The option i prefer to this method (loan shark disads) is the pay-as-you-go.

 

In pay-as-you-go, you don't get points up front for disads. Instead, whenever disads BITE in a scenario, you get a bonus. Some games give you bonbus Xp for the session while others give hero points.

 

this means you don't NEED to take any, you dont have to worry in advance about how frequent and severe (use HINDSIGHT not FORESIGHT) and you really do not have to script for balance... just script what you want and the reward and punishment will flow together like as if by magic

 

one final edge here, the PLAYER is encouraged by Payp to look at disads which will show obvious and meaningful problems in play, because that has to be seen for him to get pts. That puts he and the Gm in harmony, not at odds as much as the current.

I'm glad to see you posted this, when I entered the thread I remembered your pay-as you-go idea, and, while I admit I haven't tried it, I always thought it was a brilliant application in Hero. I was going to mention it if you didn't!

 

PS - can't rep you right now, though (24 hour limit)

[zornwil]

Re: Disadvantage

 

#1> I've always felt that the baseline point system has always given too many points for disadvantages. I use 100+50 for Heroic and 250+100 for Superheroic as starting points myself.

 

#2> The balance between the value of combat vs non-combat disadvantages depends heavily on the GM. If you aren't putting enough emphasis on non-combat situations the combat disadvantages are going to seem undervalued (that is, the points you get is too low for what it costs).

 

#3> However, I think the common mistake of having low STUN scores relative to DC/DEF values makes this problem more visible. If like most published 5th Ed characters you are in negative STUN after two average hits from your main attack, don't put all the blame at the feet of your vulnerability that makes it one average hit instead...

 

#4> The timeline value of Disadvantage makes it impractical for many uses it otherwise seems intended for. I have never had a player take this disadvantage, ever, even in campaigns where I mandated 25 pts of Vulnerablity/Susceptibility/Dependence disadvantages, in the 15+ years we've played the system. Ever. At the very least, the "zero" value should be moved to the 5-8 hour mark, perhaps the 1 day mark...

I do even less. I prefer 50-75 solid points for Disads rather than what I tend to see as 100-200 fluffy points. Just IMHO.

[zornwil]

Re: Disadvantage

 

No kidding! I've felt this way for a long time! And somehow it just feels so wrong to create a Physical Limitation that is worth far more than the equivalent Dependence would be. WTF!?

I'm with you and Jhamin. The Dependence stuff seems screwed up a bit. I think the problem, though, and the reason the system does it the way it does, is that in practice they tend to come into play so little. But that isn't really a great basis for the way it's handled - it could be said of many things.

 

I think part of the issue is that Dependence is so total and Phys Lims are open-ended. Let's say I want a character with a tobacco addiction. Without it, he gets irritable, makes rash judgement, and after a while, let's say, suffers -1 or worse on skill rolls. Dependence just doesn't do justice to this while Phys Lim can. Mainly because Phys Lim is so undefined while Dependence seems to be, and the latter's definition just doesn't go to this sort of thing.

 

And I'm no arguing, by the way, my example addiction was worth 20 - I'm just saying it's worthless the way Dependence now works, and it should be at least 5, probably 10.

[Black Rose]

Re: Disadvantage

 

I do even less. I prefer 50-75 solid points for Disads rather than what I tend to see as 100-200 fluffy points. Just IMHO.

I know what you mean. After a while you can only come up with so many PsychLims.

[Wanderer]

Re: Disadvantage

 

I know what you mean. After a while you can only come up with so many PsychLims.

 

Strange. My experience is generally the opposite. Even if I'm momentarily at a loss for definite ideas about a charcter's Disadvantages, a quick survey of the Master List of Limitations and/or the published CU NPCs, typically yields me far more possible Disadvs than 200 pts "Hmm, he could have this, and this, and this might be appropriate to the concept, too". Generally, it is a toiling and ardous process of pruning away, much like it happens with the character's powers; first the happy brainstorming phase of putting anything in that might be remotely appropriate to the concept, then the long hard road of pruning away the excess