XP idea

[Sean Waters]

I often have a job deciding when to give out extra XP to players. I'm often worried that I may either be, or be seen to be being, arbitrary. Also, with the level of granularity involved: XP tends to work out at 1-2 points per session - a bonus point or two can be quite a big deal, so I feel the pressure of making everyone happy. Maybe I worry too much.

 

Here's a way around it (I was reading another, completely unconnected post and felt the need to share, but it didn't seem the right place). Award fractional XP, specifically 1/10th of an XP at a time, and be quite generous with it (you can afford to be: it's cheap). It is an instant reward that is not unbalancing, allows the players to get immediate feedback on their actions, and, generally, just works really well. When they get 10, they trade it in for 1XP.

 

One other thing: I never give out XP for players making really good rolls - that's its own reward. I almost always give out XP for very bad rolls especially if they lead to some sort of disaster AND I give out XP for players effected by really good villain rolls - you tend to learn real quick from your mistakes and the successes of opponents, and a few tenths of a point of XP can help to salve the frustration, which is never a bad thing

[Lumbering Ox]

Re: XP idea

 

I've said it elsewhere I'll say it here.

 

Its been said that a good society needs no laws and no laws will help in a rotten one. Or something on that theme.

 

When I did I found the similar thing to roleplaying.

If you got good players there is no need to encourage them to roleplay well or do nifty thing. When you got bad players, attempts to encourage them to do better only end up making things forced or worse. I would almost rather have a dice rolling killmachine stick to what he likes then have him pretend to give his character personality just so he can min max his character a bit more.

 

All it does is get on the nerves of the non roleplayers and those who care.

 

So the point nazi says, no extra points for you!.

 

And anyways to add to what you said, good roleplaying and other things you generally get bonus points for are also their own reward. Giving a brillient speach at just the right time, or comming up with a fantastic idea that tosses a curveball at the enemy, or taking a hit to stay pure to the character concept are all joys to me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: XP idea

 

I've said it elsewhere I'll say it here.

 

Its been said that a good society needs no laws and no laws will help in a rotten one. Or something on that theme.

 

When I did I found the similar thing to roleplaying.

If you got good players there is no need to encourage them to roleplay well or do nifty thing. When you got bad players, attempts to encourage them to do better only end up making things forced or worse. I would almost rather have a dice rolling killmachine stick to what he likes then have him pretend to give his character personality just so he can min max his character a bit more.

 

All it does is get on the nerves of the non roleplayers and those who care.

 

So the point nazi says, no extra points for you!.

 

And anyways to add to what you said, good roleplaying and other things you generally get bonus points for are also their own reward. Giving a brillient speach at just the right time, or comming up with a fantastic idea that tosses a curveball at the enemy, or taking a hit to stay pure to the character concept are all joys to me.

 

Them, them them, it is all about THEM, you selfless individual you. As a GM, I LIKE giving out XP. It has that feelgood factor.

 

Anyway, I'm not suggesting a new idea about awarding XP here - check out p 555 where the rules for handing out XP are delineated: I'm just suggesting a subtler mechanic for doing it.

 

Interestingly, I'm kinda with you on the killmachine thing, only sort of from the other way around. Good friend of mine (when we used to play DnD) always wanted to play evil characters, and always wanted an 18/00 strength (as was). I always said 'no' and 'if you roll it'. He played but was often going through the motions, or trying o justify his lawful good paladin going on a murder spree.

 

I ran a pretty freeform game after a while and thought 'what the hell', and presented Martin with a 18/00 strength kicka** anti-paladin. He was as happy a a pig in poo.

 

More to the point he role-played it.

 

I'm not just talking about taking every opportunity to hack and slash, he did indeed hack and slash, but that was not the important thing to him: he got into the character and was far more subtle and self serving than that.

 

So...

 

1. I'm not much of a judge of character or anything else for that matter, and

2. (a bit of a non-sequitur, but it makes sense to me) I don't hand out XP for players being annoying

3. Pretending to give the character personality is all any of us even do.

[Lumbering Ox]

Re: XP idea

 

3: There is a difference between giving the character a personality from a character concept and just whipping up something for the xp. Much like the difference between killing orcs because of some goal, vs killing them because they are not worth the xp alive [like in some systems]

 

We had this one fellow in the group who was a hard core combat type/minmaxer.

It seemed the only reason he showed up to roll to hits and damage dice and had little interest in anything else. Any attempts to encourage playing more [ie playing in character, having interesting characters whatever] he bitterly resented. He just wanted to kill the monster and loot the treasure. All his characters were basiclly him.

Basiclly he played roleplaying games like a war game only without much in the way of thinking or strategy.

He was also a hard core minmaxer. Although an ardent homophobe and vs some groups a racist, he would in a split second take a Pakistani homosexual if it meant 25 or 50 extra points but would try to play him the exact same way as any other character he ever had. It was also obvious that every disad he took was an attempt simply to get the extra points so he could kill monsters and had nothing to do with any character concept in mind.

 

We all knew him, and knew the way he thought. It seemed better for everyone to just give up on him, and make fun of him.. but then we were snobbish jerks

 

Seeing someone try to roleplay just for the points is to me and the other players worse then just having him sit buy silently waiting for something to roll his dice against.

 

 

He did however make one good point. Some people are just better and more confortable with some aspects of roleplaying then others. For example any system that strongly encourages acting, and speaking in role would screw me over totally. By nature I am an extrovert but there are sometimes when even the most extroverted clams up. Others just don't have the creativity to do the things to gain bonus points. As time goes on their characters will start to fall behind not because they don't want to play well, but because they just can't keep up with the others.... assumeing these bonuses are common vs a rare thing. Over a year, 5 or 10 points isn't much, but if some characters nail a point or 2 extra every session...

 

If I GM I would be inclined to give the same XP to everyone, except it extreme situations. I will assume that those who want to are doing as well as they can given the situation I present, and the rest would be happier not bothering.

[Sean Waters]

Re: XP idea

 

Well, he sounds like a real charmer.

 

You make many good points, and I agree that trying to jam someone into your idea of what a role player should be is often pointless and unpleasant, but my experience is that if you let the player have what they want, they can often surprise you*.

 

The chap you mentioned wouldn't have been picking up any XP in any event for role playing, by the sound of it.

 

You also make a good point about different styles, and how they can lead to an imbalance in XP awards. To an extent it is the job of the GM to balance awards - everyone has their good points, and you should make sure those points are recognised and acknowledged. If, like me, you don't always do that well, at least handing out XP in 0.1 chunks minimises the damage. Even the best players rarely pick up more than 0.5 points per session**, and I do feel that damage limitation is a better option than giving up on it entirely.

 

 

 

* Not always, of course, in a way you'd want to be surprised

 

** Exceptions apply in certain gender and COM specific circumstances

[Lumbering Ox]

Re: XP idea

 

Perhaps a situation where a bonus XP is givin out but only for those situations where a player has his character do something that serves as a presence attack... for the players. For those times when then other players themselves are stunned into silence by some act of brilance or cleaverness or whatever. Then there is no worry about arbitraryness or the like because it is obvious to everyone that player X deserves the point and to not give it would be a crime vs humanity.

 

For the most part, the party is a team and gets treated as such to succeed or fail as a unit, but occationally a character might earn himself a VC or a CMH* and gets that point. Calling me a shameless individual OK so I am. But one can argue it both ways.

 

I am brainstorming/free asociating here. I have not played HERO in over 13 years, and other then playing 4 or so sessions of D20 have not played anything in about 10... against my will of course.

 

BTW the player I refered to was also a chronic cheater. Why a DM would let a player use a DM sheild I will never guess . The last group he was in kept him around because 1: He *Always* showed up, 2: Its an extra body 3: The DM just halved the damage he did, and doubled the damage done to him, and the player never figured it out and 4: It was fun to them and easy to have him blow up in a viking rage.

 

*Victoria Cross, Congressional Medal of Honour

[Sean Waters]

Re: XP idea

 

You carry the scars well

 

The guy sounds like a real charmer! To be honest I tend to have more problems with people getting too deeply into their characters. Everyone has their own cross to bear, I suppose.

 

Brainstorming/free associating is why we are here. Well, why I'm here, anyway. To be honest when I posted the initial idea I hadn't thought it would be at all controversial. It is nice to have my expectations awake and paying attention again

[Lumbering Ox]

Re: XP idea

 

I wouldn't see it at controversial. Again, I haven't DMed in ages. Any view I would hold is based on distant and fond memories, not hard opinions.

Actually upon further consideration it seems we pretty much agree.

 

Neither of us wants to be seen as favoring. [also I've put up with whining].

 

IN a way the solutions are pretty simular in the end. Giving out fractional points vs giving out a hero cookie point for amazing things would over the course of time result in the same thing. Both methods reduce the effect of a bonus so as to not make it such a huge factor.

Although in terms of avoiding the worry of favoritism, waiting until the minds of GM and players are blown would be better then fractional. The fractional can still be arbitrary, making the bonus point the equivilent of the VC not so much so. OTOH it also means awards are less common which seems to be important to you. Its always good to have options.

By the end of the year, we are still talking about perhaps 5 or 10 extra point difference tops out of normally 50 ro 100 under both viewings.

[Mike W]

Re: XP idea

 

For the most part, I give the entire group the same base XP. People who do interesting things in game sessions get assigned XP based on what they did. This stuff usually goes to Perks like Reputation or Contacts, so it's pretty clear to people why each character is getting(or not getting) assigned XP.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: XP idea

 

Perhaps a situation where a bonus XP is givin out but only for those situations where a player has his character do something that serves as a presence attack... for the players. For those times when then other players themselves are stunned into silence by some act of brilance or cleaverness or whatever. Then there is no worry about arbitraryness or the like because it is obvious to everyone that player X deserves the point and to not give it would be a crime vs humanity.

 

What if Player Y's character is a shy introvert and Player X's is a loud extrovert. Shouldn't Player Y get bonus role playing XP if he sits very quietly at the table all game (or if his player doesn't show up at all)?

 

To me, this is the fatal falw of "bonus xp". The most obvious players clean up, and those who role play quieter, and are true to their characters, do not.

[Sean Waters]

Re: XP idea

 

What if Player Y's character is a shy introvert and Player X's is a loud extrovert. Shouldn't Player Y get bonus role playing XP if he sits very quietly at the table all game (or if his player doesn't show up at all)?

 

To me, this is the fatal falw of "bonus xp". The most obvious players clean up, and those who role play quieter, and are true to their characters, do not.

 

Oh ye of little faith in the GM!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: XP idea

 

Oh ye of little faith in the GM!

 

I'm speaking as the GM

[Sean Waters]

Re: XP idea

 

I'm speaking as the GM

 

[Mike W]

Re: XP idea

 

Hugh's point is a good one though. We tend to think of "good roleplayers" as people who are saying/doing a lot of acting. But not all characters require that you do a lot of acting.

[Lumbering Ox]

Re: XP idea

 

And I've seen players take characters they don't really want to, just so they could act, just to get the points.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: XP idea

 

I always give bonus experience as directed experience - improving someone's ability or skill or contacts or reputation etc.

 

I have been designing my own version of Gloranthan Hero and have recently been pondering about experience. In RQ people got ticks and could roll for improvements - they got harder as the skill improved and they could spend money and time to train other skills.

 

I've decided to take this on - I like seeing improvements to characters (other than superheroes - I like them being constant for some strange reason).

 

I've decided to give people rolls against skills that they successfully used and to be able to buy training up to a certain point. With the training I intend to require a roll and with both training and experience rolls I intend to improve the skill/talent etc with a successful roll or a relevant KS with a failed roll.

 

Then I can afford to be stingy with experience points where players can freeform improve their characters.

 

 

Doc

[radioKAOS]

Re: XP idea

 

 

This reminds me of a player we had for a while, back in our Palladium days [we were young and lived across from Detroit in Windsor Ont, and knew people who had been on the playtesting team, etc etc... ].

 

He would roll 5 or 6 d20s at the same time, saying he preferred the feeling of more dice in his hand... uh huh. Funny part was, whenever we made sure to make him pick a die beforehand [he said he always picked them beforehand, just didn't tell us which one...] - he would roll a 20 to hit... that guy rolled more 20's than anyone I've ever seen.

 

Anyhow, on the HERO issue, I disagree. I like to see characters progress rapidly, so long as those points have justification for the spending. I would give between 1 and 5 per session.

 

Generally like this:

 

Mission Failed = 1pt. Mission Success = 2pts. Overwhelming Success = 3pts.

 

Character well played/entertained the GM = 1pt.

 

Role playing award [by open vote from all players] = 1pt.

 

This kept everyone happy, along the lines of your 'giving the player a character he likes' idea. It encouraged good roleplaying and working together as a team.

[Silbeg]

Re: XP idea

 

I cannot say that I have come up with any bonus XP ideas that really have made me happy... inevitably I will have a player (who probably did nothing but sleep through anything but combat) complain that he should have the same experience as any other player.

 

However, recently I have been asking players (in "closing sheets" for a nomination for "Outstanding Player Award", and the person with the most votes has been receiving 1/2 xp. Since I use HeroDesigner for character creation, etc, I cannot save these 1/2 points, but as I have a spreadsheet with all player XP, I just keep it there, until they have acheived a full point.

 

This seems to be at least a reasonably fair way of doing things... for now...

[zornwil]

Re: XP idea

 

I often have a job deciding when to give out extra XP to players. I'm often worried that I may either be, or be seen to be being, arbitrary. Also, with the level of granularity involved: XP tends to work out at 1-2 points per session - a bonus point or two can be quite a big deal, so I feel the pressure of making everyone happy. Maybe I worry too much.

 

Here's a way around it (I was reading another, completely unconnected post and felt the need to share, but it didn't seem the right place). Award fractional XP, specifically 1/10th of an XP at a time, and be quite generous with it (you can afford to be: it's cheap). It is an instant reward that is not unbalancing, allows the players to get immediate feedback on their actions, and, generally, just works really well. When they get 10, they trade it in for 1XP.

 

One other thing: I never give out XP for players making really good rolls - that's its own reward. I almost always give out XP for very bad rolls especially if they lead to some sort of disaster AND I give out XP for players effected by really good villain rolls - you tend to learn real quick from your mistakes and the successes of opponents, and a few tenths of a point of XP can help to salve the frustration, which is never a bad thing

Heh, I'm the master of fractional XP...check out http://www.realschluss.org/x-champions/house_rules/ch_gaining_reputation_and_experienc.htm

 

(ignore the Fuzion references, I just never bothered to remove them)

 

PS - the players seem okay with it - it's the subject of some jokes (like when they're at 25.2565 points...) but they appreciate the way it works as it does benefit them, and, for me, using the chart makes it less arbitrary

[zornwil]

Re: XP idea

 

I always give bonus experience as directed experience - improving someone's ability or skill or contacts or reputation etc.

 

I have been designing my own version of Gloranthan Hero and have recently been pondering about experience. In RQ people got ticks and could roll for improvements - they got harder as the skill improved and they could spend money and time to train other skills.

 

I've decided to take this on - I like seeing improvements to characters (other than superheroes - I like them being constant for some strange reason).

 

I've decided to give people rolls against skills that they successfully used and to be able to buy training up to a certain point. With the training I intend to require a roll and with both training and experience rolls I intend to improve the skill/talent etc with a successful roll or a relevant KS with a failed roll.

 

Then I can afford to be stingy with experience points where players can freeform improve their characters.

 

 

Doc

I do some directed awards as well, on occassion. I'm surprised how much people like them, so need to do it more a bit, but it's a balance, to me, in order to assure the players have flexibility but also feel the results of doing something a lot.

[zornwil]

Re: XP idea

 

 

This reminds me of a player we had for a while, back in our Palladium days [we were young and lived across from Detroit in Windsor Ont, and knew people who had been on the playtesting team, etc etc... ].

 

He would roll 5 or 6 d20s at the same time, saying he preferred the feeling of more dice in his hand... uh huh. Funny part was, whenever we made sure to make him pick a die beforehand [he said he always picked them beforehand, just didn't tell us which one...] - he would roll a 20 to hit... that guy rolled more 20's than anyone I've ever seen.

 

Anyhow, on the HERO issue, I disagree. I like to see characters progress rapidly, so long as those points have justification for the spending. I would give between 1 and 5 per session.

 

Generally like this:

 

Mission Failed = 1pt. Mission Success = 2pts. Overwhelming Success = 3pts.

 

Character well played/entertained the GM = 1pt.

 

Role playing award [by open vote from all players] = 1pt.

 

This kept everyone happy, along the lines of your 'giving the player a character he likes' idea. It encouraged good roleplaying and working together as a team.

I like different XP (and reputation, since I have a system for that, too) reward rates for different types of games. That's why I set up Slow, Moderate, Fast, and Very Rapid rates in my award system.

[GAZZA]

Re: XP idea

 

I give out from 10-20 XP per session, usually. That's a heck of a lot more than the system suggests, and means that characters change pretty rapidly - on the other hand, most of my campaigns tend to be of short duration (10-20 sessions), and I like to see characters change markedly over that time.

 

So in effect me giving out a bonus of 1 or 2 XP would be like giving out 1/10 of an XP in the proposed system.

[radioKAOS]

Re: XP idea

 

Heh, I'm the master of fractional XP...check out http://www.realschluss.org/x-champions/house_rules/ch_gaining_reputation_and_experienc.htm

 

(ignore the Fuzion references, I just never bothered to remove them)

 

PS - the players seem okay with it - it's the subject of some jokes (like when they're at 25.2565 points...) but they appreciate the way it works as it does benefit them, and, for me, using the chart makes it less arbitrary

 

I will have to read more on this when I get the chance, looks very interesting though.

 

Personally, I don't think it's all that bad to have a more arbitrary system of XP, I'm the GM and I know what I think is fair for all concerned. Not to say charts like yours aren't handy, and I'll take some of it into account for my next game most likely. It earned you some Rep anyhow.

[radioKAOS]

Re: XP idea

 

I give out from 10-20 XP per session, usually. That's a heck of a lot more than the system suggests, and means that characters change pretty rapidly - on the other hand, most of my campaigns tend to be of short duration (10-20 sessions), and I like to see characters change markedly over that time.

 

So in effect me giving out a bonus of 1 or 2 XP would be like giving out 1/10 of an XP in the proposed system.

 

Yes I agree with you on wanting to see the characters change, and grow in power, as they move along. And granted most HERO Supers campaigns I find rarely go much past 20 sessions... those that do are the stuff of legend.

 

I like different XP (and reputation' date=' since I have a system for that, too) reward rates for different types of games. That's why I set up Slow, Moderate, Fast, and Very Rapid rates in my award system.[/quote']

 

I like that too, different rates of advancement.

 

One thing I don't agree with on the charts is that getting beaten by a lesser foe actually detracts from the amount of XP earned. I think the humiliation is enough of a punishment, and that characters learn [or should learn...] from their mistakes. I think that learning can be in the form of positive experience points.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: XP idea

 

Yes I agree with you on wanting to see the characters change' date=' and grow in power, as they move along. And granted most HERO Supers campaigns I find rarely go much past 20 sessions... those that do are the stuff of legend. [/quote']

 

That seems consistent with the genre - most comics don't get beyond issue #20, and those that do tend not to end in the 30's or 40's...