house rule for c.s.l.

[prestidigitator]

Re: house rule for c.s.l.

 

And don’t get me started on ‘3 point knife skill levels can be used for defense if someone attacks you with a knife while you’re shooting!’ Which somehow manages to be overcomplicated and too simplistic at the same time.

Eh? I don't think they can. CSLs with a knife can only be applied if you are using a knife. However, CSLs with whatever your are shooting (Ranged) could normally apply if the knife is being thrown at you (Ranged) rather than being swung at you (HTH).

[prestidigitator]

Re: house rule for c.s.l.

 

I’m not sure I like how 2 and 3 point skill levels interact with weapons' date=' anyway. If you have +2 with Strike, Block, and Grab, can you use a sword for the Strike and Block maneuvers?[/quote']

Certainly. But you can't apply them if you do a Move By or a Haymaker, even if it is with your sword.

[Ura-Maru]

Re: house rule for c.s.l.

 

Eh? I don't think they can. CSLs with a knife can only be applied if you are using a knife. However, CSLs with whatever your are shooting (Ranged) could normally apply if the knife is being thrown at you (Ranged) rather than being swung at you (HTH).

 

The example on 5ER pg 54 seems to say you can use the knife level for defense while you’re using a gun, if you’re ‘somehow using it,’ whatever that means. It also strongly implies that the defense you get from 3 point levels only applies vs. the same weapon you took the skill in.

 

On page 53, it says flat out that if you want a bonus to both armed and unarmed strikes, say, you need to take a 3 point level in ‘All Strikes,’ and then contradicts this on the next page.

 

Like I said, both vague and over-complicated. I miss the old days when 3 point levels couldn’t apply to defense. (Assuming it really did. That's the way we played it anyway) Unless you took it on Dodge. Or Dive for Cover. Ok, maybe it was just as complicated then . . . but my mind was younger and more flexable.

 

Your explanation, (maneuver levels apply to maneuvers armed or unarmed, ‘weapon’ maneuvers apply to any maneuver with that weapon) seems as good a way to do it as any. Though it lets bricks get a pretty kickass combat suite for only 3 points each . . .

 

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Not to mention a 5 point level can give +1 to OECV/DECV . . . or just a +1 to DECV. The heck?

[prestidigitator]

Re: house rule for c.s.l.

 

The example on 5ER pg 54 seems to say you can use the knife level for defense while you’re using a gun, if you’re ‘somehow using it,’ whatever that means. It also strongly implies that the defense you get from 3 point levels only applies vs. the same weapon you took the skill in.

 

On page 53, it says flat out that if you want a bonus to both armed and unarmed strikes, say, you need to take a 3 point level in ‘All Strikes,’ and then contradicts this on the next page.

Huh. Don't have my book on me at the moment. I'll have to check that out some time. Maybe I'll do some FAQ-diving as well; there's a lot of this stuff in there IIRC. The last time I finished looking through the FAQ I thought I had a pretty good handle on exactly how specific CSLs can be applied.

 

Not to mention a 5 point level can give +1 to OECV/DECV . . . or just a +1 to DECV. The heck?

They can also apply to the, "damage," of mental attacks in the first case. Why buy them just for DECV? Beats me! Just if it fits the concept for some reason, I guess.

[Old Man]

Re: house rule for c.s.l.

 

The example on 5ER pg 54 seems to say you can use the knife level for defense while you’re using a gun, if you’re ‘somehow using it,’ whatever that means. It also strongly implies that the defense you get from 3 point levels only applies vs. the same weapon you took the skill in.

 

On page 53, it says flat out that if you want a bonus to both armed and unarmed strikes, say, you need to take a 3 point level in ‘All Strikes,’ and then contradicts this on the next page.

 

That's odd. I'll have to check on that over the weekend. The way I am used to playing it, if you have a 3pt level in Wet Noodle, then you can use that level for OCV or DCV as long as you have a Wet Noodle in your hand. What the other guy was using was irrelevant.

 

For knives I would specify thrown knives vs. wielded. I don't see a huge overlap between those two uses for knife.

[prestidigitator]

Re: house rule for c.s.l.

 

That's odd. I'll have to check on that over the weekend. The way I am used to playing it' date=' if you have a 3pt level in Wet Noodle, then you can use that level for OCV or DCV as long as you have a Wet Noodle in your hand. What the other guy was using was irrelevant.[/quote']

Yeah.

Unless the GM permits otherwise, a character can only allocate a CSL on a Phase when he uses an attack/power that CSL applies to.

...

Characters can use one CSL costing 3 or more points as a +1 DCV against the same types of attacks (HTH or Ranged) for which the CSL could increase OCV. For example, a CSL with a swordfighting martial art could increase DCV in HTH Combat (against any type of HTH attack), but not in Ranged Combat.

(Emphases mine.)

 

For knives I would specify thrown knives vs. wielded. I don't see a huge overlap between those two uses for knife.

Knives used in HTH combat fit under the Common Melee/Blades Broad Group. Knives used in Ranged combat fit under the Common Missile/Thrown Knives, Axes, and Darts Broad Group. 3 point CSLs normally apply to one Broad Group. However, I allow them to apply to, "Knives," which applies to both HTH and Ranged use of knives, but doesn't apply to swords or thrown axes. This type of CSL can apply to HTH DCV in a Phase only if a knife is being wielded. It can apply to Ranged DCV in a Phase only if a knife is thrown.

[Old Man]

Re: house rule for c.s.l.

 

I went and looked up the CSL rules in 1st ed FH, just on a whim. 3pt levels there were approximately the same, except that 3pt levels with weapon+shield could be used for DCV against ranged attacks (when equipped with a shield, of course).

[Lezentauw]

Re: house rule for c.s.l.

 

I hate to be Johnny come late into a discussion, but I agree with Old Man on not liking increasing the importance to Dex.

 

I am leaning towards a NCVM of 7 to, no matter how you get there. So if you take that 20 Dex, all of your skill levels are now going to cost you X2 to purchase from there after.

[Gunrunner]

Re: house rule for c.s.l.

 

Here's my house rule for CSL's from a previous thread:

 

Characters can only apply to their Combat Value a number of given CSL's equal to that CSL's cost. The only exception to this rule is 8-point CSL's. The reasoning for this is that you can only gain so much skill with one weapon or fighting style before you begin gaining skill with other weapons or fighting styles. Mastering a weapon or fighting style involves being able to apply 10 Combat Skill Levels with that particular weapon or style.

 

So for example, a warrior with a greatsword could add up to two 2-point CSL's (greatsword), three 3-point CSL's (swords), five 5-point CSL's (HtH combat), and any number of 8-point CSL's to his Combat Value. Even if he didn't have any 8-point CSL's he would still be considered a Master with the greatsword because he can apply 10 CSL's to his CV. If instead, he had no 2-point CSL's, but had two 8-point CSL's he would be considered a Master with all swords, since he can apply 10 CSL's to his CV with any type of sword.

 

A player could buy as many CSL's of any type for his character. This house rule just limits the number of CSL's he can use at one time. This is useful because it avoids the whole problem of players buying all different kinds of 3-point CSL's with different weapon groups and applying them all to DCV. This house rule is also independent of Dexterity, which also makes it better to use IMO.

 

I agree, however, that 3-point CSL's should not be used for DCV unless that character has the weapon in hand for which the 3-point CSL's apply. Maybe they changed that in 5th revised edition or the FAQ section, but I haven't checked.

[Old Man]

Re: house rule for c.s.l.

 

That sounds like a pretty elegant idea, although it doesn't solve one problem, which is that I detest 2pt OCV levels. Your mileage may vary.

[odinraven]

Re: house rule for c.s.l.

 

Well, to reiterate what I mentioned in another stat thread, I have toyed with the idea of breaking DEX out into two stats, Coordination and Agility, which each cost 2cp/pt; the former would figure into OCV and lockpicking while the latter determined DCV, SPD, and initiative. That would grot you off a little less, I think.

 

The other thing to try would be to ask the GM if you could buy DEX with a limitation that it only applies to OCV. Call that a -1 limitation and you effectively get +1 OCV for every 4.5 points. It's like buying a 5pt OCV level, only you get a free point of COM!

 

well i have to admit the old man has a point on dex. i've kinda had an itch to change it around. but the csl's are already essentialy bonus's to dex with limitations (like only for combat, only for hth combat ect.) and the extra half point is rounded up for simplicity. Another way to change dex would be to switch it to fine motor skills (ranged combat, lock picking) and course motor skills (melee combat, acrobatics, DCV) and possibly reflexes (spd and reaction time). this changes things around alot and makes the system more complex (MORE MATH AGGGH!! ) but brings some real life science into it .

As far as the house rule though i think it's a great idea for heroic campains. It keeps combat levels from getting ridiculious, sort of like a normal characteristic maxima for CVs. The only problem i see (which was mentioned earlier) is that all characters will want their dex higher, making the guy who wants to be slow and easy to hit, with massive defenses (aka the brick) a much less attractive option. I usualy just set a point cap for CV's and leave it at that, but do what you like. My recomendation is to try the charge 10$ method first.... you never know:eg: .

[Old Man]

Re: house rule for c.s.l.

 

The $10 charge method is my idea, but you can license it from me for 20%.

[prestidigitator]

Re: house rule for c.s.l.

 

My house rule for CSLs is that' date=' in addition to the points cost, each level costs $10 which must be paid to the GM.[/quote']

Well, you may charge $10 for each CSLs the character acquires, but I'll charge $1 each time the character applies each CSL. Care to license that approach from me for 25%?

[odinraven]

Re: house rule for c.s.l.

 

Well' date=' you may charge $10 for each CSLs the character [i']acquires[/i], but I'll charge $1 each time the character applies each CSL. Care to license that approach from me for 25%?

That is pure evil..... i like it...

[Spectre]

Re: house rule for c.s.l.

 

the easier solution to this is simply to restrict the nuber of CSL's a character can buy based on that individual character. that's what I do in my games, and it has never been a problem with any player, and it's easy to maintain balance among the PC's