Skills System - Out of Synch?

[Von Hase]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

I'd also like to compliment you' date=' Von Hase, both for starting an interesting thread and for making your case in a thoughtful and courteous fashion (even though I disagreed with your central premise!). That's what makes these boards so much fun; and why these kinds of threads are the Hero community at their best. Rep enroute. [/quote']

 

Why thank you.

 

I've been playing Champions, and therefore the Hero System, since 1982. I remember the Grenadier miniatures and a time when there was no such thing as 0 Endurance. It's easily my favorite system of all time, and that's saying alot considering how many games I've played, and very much like.

 

The Skills system is the topic I find the most debatable about the Hero System. Don't get me wrong, I think it works just fine as it is. I use it on a regular basis and am very impressed by the way 5E and 5ER has managed to tweak it to function even better. However, when I look at the Skills System objectively, I see room for improvement, something I don't see anywhere in the rest of the Hero System. Therefore, I figured this would be a nice subject for a debate.

 

What I have been impressed with is the number of perspectives this discussion has brought about. You and your friends have also been great to debate with. You're a smart bunch, diplomatic, and have that rare ability to reason beyond the obvious. Kudos right back at you.

 

Now back to the discussion...

 

I think you missed my main point, or I perhaps didn't express myself clearly enough.

 

Cyberknight may indeed get several complimentary Skill rolls to increase his Combat Piloting roll, but he got those because he built an expert fighter pilot, not because he spent X points. In other words, his numerous connected Skills are the result of building a character who is a trained fighter pilot; and most experts in any field have related skills which they acquired as part of becoming an expert. So yes, Cyberknight would clean Zl'f's clock in a dogfight, but he'd do it because he's a trained fighter pilot, not because he can ultimately generate better Combat Piloting rolls than she can. He can use his Complimentary rolls to beat her, but he could also use his complimentary Skills to enhance her ability to survive a dogfight.

 

Yes, but without those skills which describe him as an expert fighter pilot, he would not have the complementary rolls. It is cause and effect.

 

The difference would be if Cyberknight only had Combat Piloting and the TF's, but in his background was described as an expert fighter pilot, and you still took the stance that Cyberknight would win the dogfight with a character who had the same but better skills because of his description and nothing else.

 

If that were the case, then there would be no need for the extra skills to properly describe a character, and no more argument against spending the 20+ points for such things.

 

However, on a mechanical level, those skills are needed to create a character that can perform as their roleplaying descriptions declare, and those skills cost points. I, personally, would not consider designing a character without these skills. My problem isn't that characters should pay for these skills, but rather that the costs of these skills do not balance to other elements of the Hero System because the costs of Skills are out of balance.

 

My stance is that base level skills should cost less, but high level skills are fine where they are. I play as much Heroic level Hero System as I do Champions, and you hit the nail on the head when you stated that Heroic level characters pay more proportionally than Superheroic, but that cost is further inflated by demand. Heroic level characters need more skills, most of them fleshed out base level skills which, if they could cost less, would be much more in balance with the rest of the mechanics in the game.

 

As an example, I built myself as a character. (Don't look at me like that. We've all done it at least once.) I went through and wrote appropriate scores, though I was very conservative with the values, and still ended up at over 100 points. 0 points were in Characteristics, 10 went to Talents, and over 90 points were in Skills, and a large percentage of that was 8- rolls. Granted, I put 27 points in combat oriented skills (which are by nature pricey) for WFs, a set of various +1 CVs, and two maneuvers because I've been practicing martial arts and swordfighting since the age of 5, but that still leaves almost 70 points for non-combat skills. For a guy who's highest skill is 13- Artist, that's too many points to have to spend on skills to describe a character properly. The biggest amount of the costs came from the 3 point chunks for Competent level skills in skills that would probably never be rolled over the course of an entire campaign, but that made sense for what I am about and able to do like 'Illustration' and 'Graphic Design'. Add a few ranks here or there, and wala, 70 points. That is far too much for a Normal like myself.

 

Effectively, the costs of skills penalize good roleplaying because a character who didn't spend the points on those roleplaying skills has those points to spend somewhere else.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

I like the user experience point and would want to expand a bit' date=' as I think another thing often ignored, almost as if it were somehow bad, is that characters' back-stories often aren't even fleshed out until well into play. Character conception is often not done out of the gate but as one plays and evolves the character, seeing how it feels to play that character. So it's appropriate to give XP for things you had but didn't really get around to fleshing out early on.[/quote']Well, I've played Zl'f for 13+ years, so I don't think I'll shock anyone here if I confess her character is a bit more fleshed out than it was when she started. But I think the basic framework of her persona was always in place.

 

One other thing I've done with Zl'f which I think is probably a bit unusual is that I've purchased her Skills incrementally. With regard to horseback riding, she started with TF: Horses; upped that to Riding (Horses); and then finally added Animal Handler (Equines) to represent she was now training them. It seemed a more realistic way to do it that way (and I didn't know if I'd ever take it beyond TF: Horses). The same philosophy (although not quite the same methodology) went along with her civilian job as an executive assistant, where her basic PS: Executive Assistant 12- was followed by Computer Programming, Bureaucracy, and High Society to represent her growing mastery of the tasks of a good assistant. (By now, of course, she's far more than just another secretarial type; she's one of the boss' top troubleshooters.) Barring no major change in her work, I'll probably buy her PS: Business Management as a Skill in the not-too-distant future.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

Yes, but without those skills which describe him as an expert fighter pilot, he would not have the complementary rolls. It is cause and effect.

 

The difference would be if Cyberknight only had Combat Piloting and the TF's, but in his background was described as an expert fighter pilot, and you still took the stance that Cyberknight would win the dogfight with a character who had the same but better skills because of his description and nothing else.

 

If that were the case, then there would be no need for the extra skills to properly describe a character, and no more argument against spending the 20+ points for such things.

 

However, on a mechanical level, those skills are needed to create a character that can perform as their roleplaying descriptions declare, and those skills cost points. I, personally, would not consider designing a character without these skills. My problem isn't that characters should pay for these skills, but rather that the costs of these skills do not balance to other elements of the Hero System because the costs of Skills are out of balance..

 

Effectively, the costs of skills penalize good roleplaying because a character who didn't spend the points on those roleplaying skills has those points to spend somewhere else.

This is one of those issues to which there is no one answer that will satisfy every player. Had Mentor (Cyberknight's player) decided to gloss over the fighter pilot aspect of his character by purchasing only PS: Fighter Pilot 13- and Combat Piloting 13-; I'd have been OK with that as his GM. It would have been just a bit of background to flesh out the character ("What I did before I became a superhero.").

 

However to Mentor, Cyberknight being a professional fighter jock (and, flying over Kosovo as a full colonel in the Air Force Reserve; probably the only billionaire to ever fly combat missions in US military history) was a central portion of the character's concept. His powered armor was literally described as "wearing an F-15," and thus he wanted a gadget-building character who could design and fly powered armor which had all the capabilities of an F-15 Eagle air supremacy fighter. So to Mentor, and to me, those points were not wasted at all. They just made the concept tighter. And if those extra points make the player enjoy playing his character more, then they are certainly not wasted.

 

Another player, running the same concept of a fighter jock in powered armor, might decide to take an entirely different but equally valid course and spend very little on Skills. That's cool. Ultimately, we're all here to get what we uniquely enjoy out of role playing. Nobody says we'll all want to (or should) do things the same way.

[Von Hase]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

Agreed too that Von Hase has a good topic/personal approach.

 

Thank you! That means a lot to me.

[Black Rose]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

Here's an idea I got from one of my players:

 

On the topic of the two different Characters (one with a high stat, but only 3 points invested in a Skill... and the other with a moderate stat, but highly invested with Skills Levels in a Skill, but who has a lower Skill Roll), the Character with the extra Skill Levels but the lower Skill Roll should potentially be able to do more difficult skill actions as Routine, and thus not have to make a Skill Roll. The other Character with no Skill Levels but a higher Skill Roll is better at the Skill, obviously, but has less experience/knowledge, and thus should have to make Skill Rolls for tasks that the other Character would consider Routine.

 

Example:

 

• Spider-Man has a 35 DEX, and +2 Agility Skill Levels, and buys 3 points worth of Combat Piloting, giving him a Skill Roll of 18-.
   
  
• Captain Zero-G (a Pilot/Astronaut themed Hero) has a 15 DEX, and 7 points worth of Combat Piloting, giving him a Skill Roll of 17-.
  

 

In the theoretical situation where both Characters needed to land F-16's on the flightdeck of an aircraft carrier during combat, hypothetically it is reasonable for the GM to ask Spider-Man to make a Combat Piloting Skill Roll, but just let Captain Zero-G perform the task, as the Captain has extra Skill Levels in Combat Piloting, and landing an F-16 on the flightdeck of an aircraft carrier during combat is deemed routine for him.

This is one of those situations where I think showing from where the total skill level comes would be advantageous. In order to keep it as close to the way we do it now, we'll say that Characteristics add (CHAR/5)-2, any Characteristic-based skill levels (+s to all Dex skills, etc.) add directly to the characteristic bonus, any skill-based skill levels (+s to all detective/scientist/swashbuckler/etc. skills) add to the skill bonus, and the purchase of the skill itself counts as +1 to the base 8 of the Familiarity. I have ideas to expand on this for purposes of buying 1, 2, and 3 skill stages, but I'll leave that to another thread. To use Mister E's example:

 

• Spider-Man has a 35 DEX (+7), and +2 Agility Skill Levels (+2, duh), and buys 3 points worth of Combat Piloting (base 8 +1), giving him a Skill Roll of 18- (further broken down as 9/1). Skill would read as "Combat Piloting 18- (9/1).
  
• Captain Zero-G (a Pilot/Astronaut themed Hero) has a 15 DEX (+3), and 7 points worth of Combat Piloting (base 8 +1 +5, for a total +6), giving him a Skill Roll of 17- (further broken down as 3/6). Skill would read as "Combat Piloting 17- (3/6).
  

The breakdown in parentheses allows the GM, and the player to a lesser degree, to decide how much certain limitations should affect the PC. As Mister E and others have suggested, in certain situations people with insufficient "skill" would simply be unable to attempt a roll, or only succeed on a 3-. Forex, if the GM says a PC needs (x/4) to be considered an "expert in their field", unless Stat boy spen the points in the skill, he will never be considered an "expert in his field" by professionals; he'll impress the heck out of them with his flawless mastery of the basics, but they'll still wonder why someone so talented hasn't kept going down the path of further study.

 

You know, I had tried to explain this concept before, but I never quite visualized it in this way. This idea really works for me, it's not any great chore to write down, and I think it's pretty transparent as far as complexity goes.

[Von Hase]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

• Spider-Man has a 35 DEX (+7), and +2 Agility Skill Levels (+2, duh), and buys 3 points worth of Combat Piloting (base 8 +1), giving him a Skill Roll of 18- (further broken down as 9/1). Skill would read as "Combat Piloting 18- (9/1).
  
• Captain Zero-G (a Pilot/Astronaut themed Hero) has a 15 DEX (+3), and 7 points worth of Combat Piloting (base 8 +1 +5, for a total +6), giving him a Skill Roll of 17- (further broken down as 3/6). Skill would read as "Combat Piloting 17- (3/6).
  

 

I like this concept a lot. However, would it be easier to just list ranks?

 

• Spider-Man has "Combat Piloting" 18- (1).
  
• Captain Zero-G has "Combat Piloting" 17- (6).
  

 

Creative GMs could come up with a way to define the scope of a skill based on its ranks.

 

For example, a character with a high skill one rank in Egyptian History only knows specific facts, but could make very good deductions. This idol is "Egyptian and influenced by the interaction with the Greeks. It's probably from somewhere late in the period and to the north of the Kingdoms". A character with both a high skill and high ranks would have the keen eye AND know many details "Yes, it is from the burial tomb of Cleopatra's daughter. The markings are indicative of their royal sculptor Eyanaclus, a Greek."

 

Both of them succeed, but one gets much better information.

[Phil]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

I like this concept a lot. However, would it be easier to just list ranks?

 

• Spider-Man has "Combat Piloting" 18- (1).
  
• Captain Zero-G has "Combat Piloting" 17- (6).
  

 

I concur! To build on this, an alternative alternative presentation might be to use verbal descriptors. So might you consider something along the lines of Familiar, Skilled, Trained, Advanced, Expert, Specialist, Master. That specific example is probably a little hard to remember, but illustrates the concept.

[Mister E]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

I concur! To build on this' date=' an alternative alternative presentation might be to use verbal descriptors. So might you consider something along the lines of Familiar, Skilled, Trained, Advanced, Expert, Specialist, Master. That specific example is probably a little hard to remember, but illustrates the concept.[/quote']Nice. I like this. Thank you Black Rose for the original idea.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

On the topic of the two different Characters (one with a high stat' date=' but only 3 points invested in a Skill... and the other with a moderate stat, but highly invested with Skills Levels in a Skill, but who has a lower Skill Roll), the Character with the extra Skill Levels but the lower Skill Roll should potentially be able to do more difficult skill actions as Routine, and thus not have to make a Skill Roll. The other Character with no Skill Levels but a higher Skill Roll is better at the Skill, obviously, but has less experience/knowledge, and thus should have to make Skill Rolls for tasks that the other Character would consider Routine.[/quote']

Huh. I would actually say exactly the opposite. While someone with Skill Levels certainly has a bredth of experience that someone with a high base Skill Roll does not, and can thus handle a wider variety of areas both with and without a roll (especially when they overlap into other skill areas with which that character is familiar), the person who has bought the Skill up directly has the kind of specialized knowledge it takes to perform more difficult tasks in his or her field. I find your logic a little backwards.

[Fitz]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

To build on this' date=' an alternative alternative presentation might be to use verbal descriptors. So might you consider something along the lines of Familiar, Skilled, Trained, Advanced, Expert, Specialist, Master. That specific example is probably a little hard to remember, but illustrates the concept.[/quote']

 

That's basically the FUDGE mechanic, isn't it? I've only a passing aquaintance with FUDGE, but I've liked what I've seen of it (though it seems to me to be better suited to one-offs and pick-up games than ongoing campaigns)

[zornwil]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

This is one of those situations where I think showing from where the total skill level comes would be advantageous. In order to keep it as close to the way we do it now, we'll say that Characteristics add (CHAR/5)-2, any Characteristic-based skill levels (+s to all Dex skills, etc.) add directly to the characteristic bonus, any skill-based skill levels (+s to all detective/scientist/swashbuckler/etc. skills) add to the skill bonus, and the purchase of the skill itself counts as +1 to the base 8 of the Familiarity. I have ideas to expand on this for purposes of buying 1, 2, and 3 skill stages, but I'll leave that to another thread. To use Mister E's example:

 

• Spider-Man has a 35 DEX (+7), and +2 Agility Skill Levels (+2, duh), and buys 3 points worth of Combat Piloting (base 8 +1), giving him a Skill Roll of 18- (further broken down as 9/1). Skill would read as "Combat Piloting 18- (9/1).
  
• Captain Zero-G (a Pilot/Astronaut themed Hero) has a 15 DEX (+3), and 7 points worth of Combat Piloting (base 8 +1 +5, for a total +6), giving him a Skill Roll of 17- (further broken down as 3/6). Skill would read as "Combat Piloting 17- (3/6).
  

The breakdown in parentheses allows the GM, and the player to a lesser degree, to decide how much certain limitations should affect the PC. As Mister E and others have suggested, in certain situations people with insufficient "skill" would simply be unable to attempt a roll, or only succeed on a 3-. Forex, if the GM says a PC needs (x/4) to be considered an "expert in their field", unless Stat boy spen the points in the skill, he will never be considered an "expert in his field" by professionals; he'll impress the heck out of them with his flawless mastery of the basics, but they'll still wonder why someone so talented hasn't kept going down the path of further study.

 

You know, I had tried to explain this concept before, but I never quite visualized it in this way. This idea really works for me, it's not any great chore to write down, and I think it's pretty transparent as far as complexity goes.

 

Are these all the actual changes?

- detailing where the points come from better

- making the base 8

- recosting skills slightly

 

Although I didn't understand one thing here, how the skill levels are

actually adding -

Spider-Man has "3 points worth of Combat Piloting (base 8 +1)"

Captain Zero-G has "7 points worth of Combat Piloting (base 8 +1 +5, for

a total +6)"

 

I'm missing how this adds up. I saw you indicated that the purchase of the skill includes +1 to the skill base, so I can see where a 3 point skill is +1. But how does Captain Zero-G get +5 on top of the purchase if the purchase price is 3 points and he spent a total of 7?

[Black Rose]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

Are these all the actual changes?

- detailing where the points come from better

- making the base 8

- recosting skills slightly

 

Although I didn't understand one thing here, how the skill levels are actually adding -

Spider-Man has "3 points worth of Combat Piloting (base 8 +1)"

Captain Zero-G has "7 points worth of Combat Piloting (base 8 +1 +5, for

a total +6)"

 

I'm missing how this adds up. I saw you indicated that the purchase of the skill includes +1 to the skill base, so I can see where a 3 point skill is +1. But how does Captain Zero-G get +5 on top of the purchase if the purchase price is 3 points and he spent a total of 7?

Sorry, sorry. I was being all shorthand in my head, and I forgot you can't read my mind. Here goes....

 

For the price of 1 point, you can purchase Familiarity with a given Skill. This gives you an 8- roll, and is where the "base 8" comes from. If you pay 3 points, you get a 9+CHAR/5 roll; if you completely divorce the stat from the purchase (since we'll be dealing with it later), you're really buying Base 8 (for one point) +1 (since it's 9) plus whatever your stat adds in.

 

As for Captain Zero-G's skill roll, I screwed up the math on it. My bad entirely. I was trying to figure out how to get 17- out of a 15 DEX and 7 points in Compat Piloting, and I somehow came up with "Combat Piloting must be like Gambling and Forgery; you can buy the base skill for 2 points, and each +1 for 1 point." Frankly, I'm still not sure how you get 17- out of Base 8 +1 (3 pts) +3 (DEX) +2 (skill levels); it adds up to 14- for me. Then again, it might just have been a goof on Mister E's part as well.

 

Regardless, I think it's a good idea. Oh, and Von Hase? Yeah, it would be easier, especially since I tend to group my skills by stat when I'm drawing up my character, and move them into conceptual blocks later.

 

Phil: I think it might be better to have the narrative levelling as an info block off to the side; people could see and use it, but not necessarily write it in themselves. Sort of like the Basic Combat Maneuvers on the sheet.

[Black Rose]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

Huh. I would actually say exactly the opposite. While someone with Skill Levels certainly has a bredth of experience that someone with a high base Skill Roll does not' date=' and can thus handle a [i']wider variety[/i] of areas both with and without a roll (especially when they overlap into other skill areas with which that character is familiar), the person who has bought the Skill up directly has the kind of specialized knowledge it takes to perform more difficult tasks in his or her field. I find your logic a little backwards.

The following is solely my own opinion:

 

I think the skill levels Mister E's referring to here are the ones built into the skill. For example, DEX 15 Guy buys Acrobatics for 3 points, and gets 12-. He later spends 4 points and now has 14-, which is to say, the base roll he bought for 3 points (12-) plus 2 skill levels. They aren't Skill Levels, but rather skill levels, thus proving that, if this were to become anything even approaching standard, we'd have to find better terminology.

[Phil]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

He later spends 4 points and now has 14-' date=' which is to say, the base roll he bought for 3 points (12-) plus 2 skill levels. They aren't Skill Levels, but rather skill levels, thus proving that, if this were to become anything even approaching standard, we'd have to find better terminology.[/quote']

 

Actually, because Skill Levels for a single skill cost 2 points, Skill Levels ARE skill levels! If you follow...

[Mister E]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

Huh. I would actually say exactly the opposite. While someone with Skill Levels certainly has a bredth of experience that someone with a high base Skill Roll does not' date=' and can thus handle a [i']wider variety[/i] of areas both with and without a roll (especially when they overlap into other skill areas with which that character is familiar), the person who has bought the Skill up directly has the kind of specialized knowledge it takes to perform more difficult tasks in his or her field. I find your logic a little backwards.

You find my logic "a little backwards," huh? Let me think about this for a second.

 

My concept of variable 'routineness' was more taken from the philosophy that experience and repeated practice of a skill gives the Veteran Master a certain familiarity or intimacy with the skill, allowing him to perform moderately difficult applications of it as if they were routine... whereas the naturally gifted, but less skilled practitioner should have to make a Skill Roll.

 

Honestly, I think both ideas can be applied at the same time. To what end, I don't know. This is all so very much "On-the-spot GM calling." Players still won't know what's going on... but they will know that if they buy extra Skill Levels for their Skills, they might get some kind of in-game meta-recognition for it... even if their Skill Rolls aren't as high as some Super-Statted dabblers.

[Mister E]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

The following is solely my own opinion:

 

I think the skill levels Mister E's referring to here are the ones built into the skill. For example, DEX 15 Guy buys Acrobatics for 3 points, and gets 12-. He later spends 4 points and now has 14-, which is to say, the base roll he bought for 3 points (12-) plus 2 skill levels. They aren't Skill Levels, but rather skill levels, thus proving that, if this were to become anything even approaching standard, we'd have to find better terminology.

Yup.

 

Actually' date=' because Skill Levels for a single skill cost 2 points, Skill Levels ARE skill levels! If you follow... [/quote']What he said.

 

 

Someone somewhere once mentioned that they would like to get rid of the stat-element in Skills. I tend to lean in that direction, but not so far. I'm all for leaving the stat-element, but letting the GM and Players emphasize Skill Levels as something other than just adders to a Skill Roll. I want Skill Levels to actually mean something. That's all. It's not a big deal, and it doesn't really have to effect the game much.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

Someone somewhere once mentioned that they would like to get rid of the stat-element in Skills. I tend to lean in that direction' date=' but not so far. I'm all for leaving the stat-element, but letting the GM and Players emphasize Skill Levels as something other than just adders to a Skill Roll. I want Skill Levels to actually mean something. That's all. It's not a big deal, and it doesn't really have to effect the game much.[/quote']I'm sorta on the same page personally. I like that Characteristics can have a positive benefit on a CHAR-based Skill, but I'm not entirely comfortable that some neophyte who learned the Skill on Tuesday is suddenly better at it than a master who has literally years of training and practice. I'd like to find a happy medium. While some CHAR-based Skills do rely heavily on their base CHAR (such as Acrobatics or Sleight of Hand), I think for others inate Skill can only go so far.

 

 

This issue actually came up with regard to the very example I posted earlier; Zl'f compared to Cyberknight. It bugs me a bit that she spends only 3 points and gets an 18- on Combat Piloting simply due to her 43 DEX, but he has only a 16- despite a 20 DEX and literally years of training. I'm just not comfortable with Zl'f being a better pilot than Cyberknight, and if Cyberknight weren't being retired (actually he came out of retirement) after our current adventure arc I probably wouldn't have even considered buying Zl'f Combat Piloting. I think it bugs me more than Cyberknight's player, but there you are. There isn't even any way to detach Combat Piloting from DEX (such as making it a flat 11- Skill for 2 points).

 

It may be more trouble than it's worth to rework the Skill system to deal with those issues, but those are my thoughts.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

Well, Luke Skywalker might be a better pilot then Han Solo based off reflexes (and precognition), but does he have all the complimentary skills that Solo has built up in his many years of smuggeling?

 

Me thinks not... and likely it's the same thing for Zl'f (but minus the Force).

[Phil]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

This issue actually came up with regard to the very example I posted earlier; Zl'f compared to Cyberknight. It bugs me a bit that she spends only 3 points and gets an 18- on Combat Piloting simply due to her 43 DEX, but he has only a 16- despite a 20 DEX and literally years of training. I'm just not comfortable with Zl'f being a better pilot than Cyberknight, and if Cyberknight weren't being retired (actually he came out of retirement) after our current adventure arc I probably wouldn't have even considered buying Zl'f Combat Piloting. I think it bugs me more than Cyberknight's player, but there you are. There isn't even any way to detach Combat Piloting from DEX (such as making it a flat 11- Skill for 2 points).

 

It may be more trouble than it's worth to rework the Skill system to deal with those issues, but those are my thoughts.

To a great extent this can be adequately dealt with by combining some recognition of the value of Skill Levels with flexible GMing (although specific guidance and examples from Ultimate Skills would assist). I think you can say that in matters of piloting, Zl'f is substantially better and rightly so with that super-superhuman dex! It's just when complications come up ("Oh dear. The starboard wing appears to have fallen off") that experience becomes more valuable than ability, and GMs should try and take this into account.

[RDU Neil]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

I would just like to throw one other thing into this already very long, very over discussed thread.

 

Remember where Hero Skill System came from.

 

Champions... the domain of supers, where the omni-competent are derigeur. Supers are never really shown spending "years and years" grinding away to learn skillls (unless it's a three panel flash back) and yet they are often hyper-competent... better than professional experts who are "normals"... whenever they need to be.

 

This is a traditional super-trope, and one that the original Champions skill model handled just fine. Often this isn't a problem in a game where "normals" (no matter how skilled) are generall just background scenery for the supers who can do EVERYTHING better. The issue comes up in game play more when player characters overlap (as in the Z'lf situation)... even though in the comics this happens all the time. Think about the fact that in X-Men, for years Scott Summers has been shown to train hard, do the piloting thing better than anyone else, etc. But if he is knocked unconscious, they don't have a problem with Hank McCoy suddenly jumping in and flying just fine with some pithy comment about studying flight manuals during his coffee breaks.

 

But then again, Scott Summers and Hank McCoy don't have "players" who are upset by having their "shtick" stepped on.

 

In fact, it was designed to handle skills back when beginning characters were 200 points, and 10 points of skills was most of the time enough to flesh out a character. We've had twenty-plus years of character building evolution (for better or worse, YMMV) and with more points, a different philosophy guiding the company/product line... we have had no change in skill cost or build philosophy. Any such change for more comprehensive detail will be more complicated and ponderous. YMMV if that is worth it.

[zornwil]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

Sorry, sorry. I was being all shorthand in my head, and I forgot you can't read my mind. Here goes....

 

For the price of 1 point, you can purchase Familiarity with a given Skill. This gives you an 8- roll, and is where the "base 8" comes from. If you pay 3 points, you get a 9+CHAR/5 roll; if you completely divorce the stat from the purchase (since we'll be dealing with it later), you're really buying Base 8 (for one point) +1 (since it's 9) plus whatever your stat adds in.

 

As for Captain Zero-G's skill roll, I screwed up the math on it. My bad entirely. I was trying to figure out how to get 17- out of a 15 DEX and 7 points in Compat Piloting, and I somehow came up with "Combat Piloting must be like Gambling and Forgery; you can buy the base skill for 2 points, and each +1 for 1 point." Frankly, I'm still not sure how you get 17- out of Base 8 +1 (3 pts) +3 (DEX) +2 (skill levels); it adds up to 14- for me. Then again, it might just have been a goof on Mister E's part as well.

 

Regardless, I think it's a good idea. Oh, and Von Hase? Yeah, it would be easier, especially since I tend to group my skills by stat when I'm drawing up my character, and move them into conceptual blocks later.

 

Phil: I think it might be better to have the narrative levelling as an info block off to the side; people could see and use it, but not necessarily write it in themselves. Sort of like the Basic Combat Maneuvers on the sheet.

Okay, thanks much. It seems pretty workable. The one thing I noticed it doesn't do much in regard to which you've discussed before is trying to make sure the generalist doesn't out-do the specialist, although I think of course you could use the skill level number to identify abilities as you indicated, it's just not a systemically-enforced thing.

[zornwil]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

I'm sorta on the same page personally. I like that Characteristics can have a positive benefit on a CHAR-based Skill, but I'm not entirely comfortable that some neophyte who learned the Skill on Tuesday is suddenly better at it than a master who has literally years of training and practice. I'd like to find a happy medium. While some CHAR-based Skills do rely heavily on their base CHAR (such as Acrobatics or Sleight of Hand), I think for others inate Skill can only go so far.

 

 

This issue actually came up with regard to the very example I posted earlier; Zl'f compared to Cyberknight. It bugs me a bit that she spends only 3 points and gets an 18- on Combat Piloting simply due to her 43 DEX, but he has only a 16- despite a 20 DEX and literally years of training. I'm just not comfortable with Zl'f being a better pilot than Cyberknight, and if Cyberknight weren't being retired (actually he came out of retirement) after our current adventure arc I probably wouldn't have even considered buying Zl'f Combat Piloting. I think it bugs me more than Cyberknight's player, but there you are. There isn't even any way to detach Combat Piloting from DEX (such as making it a flat 11- Skill for 2 points).

 

It may be more trouble than it's worth to rework the Skill system to deal with those issues, but those are my thoughts.

I think you express the basic issue pretty well here.

 

Maybe something such as "CHAR-based bonus cannot exceed the skill bonus * (X)" with X perhaps being 2 times it or something. So if your skill bonus is +3, you can't have more than +6 from the CHAR bonus.

 

PS - but this does really throw out of whack the way people can effectively buy up skills, so probably need to make skills +1/1 or such.

[Phil]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

I would just like to throw one other thing into this already very long' date=' very over discussed thread.[/quote']

 

Rep for the reality check, a very good point. However, I would flag that a reason is not the same thing as a justification, and fit for Supers purpose is - as with so many elements in HERO - not necessarily fit for all.

 

Edit: well, would Rep if I could!

[RDU Neil]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

Rep for the reality check, a very good point. However, I would flag that a reason is not the same thing as a justification, and fit for Supers purpose is - as with so many elements in HERO - not necessarily fit for all.

 

Exactly! Fit for supers is NOT a fit for all... but we have a "supers style" skill system will NOT feel right in many non-supers games. We could break down the basic elements of this...

 

Characteristics = skilled: For supers this is fine, but in many other genres, just because somone is nimble doesn't make them a master thief. Divorcing characteristics from skills (especially really high level characteristics as in supers) would enable a more universally accepted skill build

 

Constant Growth: By this I mean, skills constantly get more/bigger/better with EXP, without any system for skill degredation. In supers, this makes sense since 30 years after Johnny Storm last worked under the hood of a race car, there will be a story about him racing/doing mechanics/whatever... even though that skill set has been un-utiilized forever. For more "human" based action/adventure genres, there is a tendency for even the hero to sometimes say, "Translate Hieroglyphics? Are you kidding? I haven't done that since grad school!" and then struggle quite a bit in a long process (still eaking out enough to drive the plot, mind you) because they are rusty with that skill. Hero has nothing like this mechanically.

 

No Limit On Skills/Knowledges: Not only is skill ability unchecked, but the number of skills/knowledges someone can have is unlimited. This is a corolary to above, in that often the time and effort of mastering a new skill means losing ability in another area. This happens all the time in real life. I learned to drywall quite well when I was doing it constantly... but after some years, I'd have to start small and work up to a level of competency again. Even in short period of time... say with games... a person will lose aptitude because they are focusing on something else. If I stop playing Magic for a few months to play more RPGs... when I pick up the cards again, it takes time to re-aquaint myself with the metagame... remember to stop making stupid timing mistakes... see card synergies... etc. There is no conceptual limit for skills built into Hero.

 

These three areas need to be addressed conceptually, first... before we start hacking at numbers and forumlas. At least IMO...

 

(Actually, I'm fine with Hero Skills as they are... since I'm good at interpreting them for my needs in a game... but then, I've been doing this for 24 years... )

[zornwil]

Re: Skills System - Out of Synch?

 

Just in case anyone's not really looking at the other threads, I put out a poll on skills at http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37176