Naked Modifier Cost. How does this work, and does it make sense?

[Hal Owen]

Okay, this is a carryover from a question someone asked on the Hero Designer board, but it got me to thinking.

 

Let's say that I want to buy some Extra Dexterity for some kind of mystical Martial Artist.

He can, at great effort, summon up some "chi" that gives him higher DEX.

(This is just an example, so please don't point out better ways to do this, I am just trying to put it in some context. )

 

I decide to buy an extra 15 points of DEX for 45 CP.

 

I then go to put a naked modifier on that DEX to reflect the "great effort", so I buy a Naked Modifier:

"Naked Modifier: Costs END Only To Activate (+1/4); Costs Endurance (-1/2), Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/4) for up to 45 Active Points"

 

(That is what I got out of Hero Designer, and I have no reason to think that it is incorrect.)

 

My question is:

I start out by paying full price for the 15 points of DEX (45 points).

Then, I put a Modifier on it that not only costs me END, it costs me TWICE the END.

The only "benefit" is that it only costs me that END when I first activate it.

According to Hero Designer, which, again, I believe to be correct, this costs me 6 points.

 

Now if I just buy the Power:

"+15 DEX; Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4)"

It costs me 26 points, which seems pretty reasonable.

 

Now I am not writing this to question how Hero Designer works, or I would have put it in that forum.

 

I am trying to understand how the Naked Modifier works, and why it costs points to add a Limitation to something.

 

What is the underlying thing I am missing that makes this make sense?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Hal Owen

[Hawksmoor]

Re: Naked Modifier Cost. How does this work, and does it make sense?

 

The naked modifier is not actually buying the DEX. It is only buying the Advantage on DEX already purchased. No in this case the character *should* not by a naked modifier and should instead buy DEX as a power with the appropriate modifiers.

 

Hawksmoor

[Hal Owen]

Re: Naked Modifier Cost. How does this work, and does it make sense?

 

The naked modifier is not actually buying the DEX. It is only buying the Advantage on DEX already purchased. No in this case the character *should* not by a naked modifier and should instead buy DEX as a power with the appropriate modifiers.

 

Hawksmoor

 

Thanks for the reply.

I understand that the Naked Modifier is not buying the DEX itself, just a modifier on the DEX.

But, since the modifier in question is a "Limitation" overall, in that it costs END, and twice the END, but only when the Power is activated, shouldn't the point cost be negative rather than positive?

 

For what may be a clearer example:

 

Let's say I bought 45 points of Life Support, and bought the exact same Naked Modifier.

Life Support does not normally cost END.

The net result of the Naked Modifier is that it will now cost me 8 END every time I activate my Life Support, when it would have not cost me any END before.

 

The cost of this is 6 CP.

 

I am just trying to figure out how and why this works the way it does.

 

Under what circumstances does it make sense to use a Naked Modifier?

 

Why would it cost points to Limit a Power?

 

I don't mean to be dense or argumentative, I just don't understand it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Naked Modifier Cost. How does this work, and does it make sense?

 

First, you can only buy a Naked Advantage, not a Naked Limitation.

 

What you appear to have purchased in HD is the Advantage "Costs END Only To Activate" as a Naked Advantage which has the following limitations placed on it: Costs END, increase ENDx2.

 

So you can apply the NA to any continuous power that costs END to maintain and have it Cost END only at activation - and it costs you END to do so. You cannaot apply it to DEX as DEX normally does not Cost END.

 

If you bought your DEX as Costs END then it would be a legal application of the NA you purchased.

 

A Naked Advantage can be thougt of as an Adder Power - it's a Power unto itself (Special Power no less), and can be Added to any Power defined as being an acceptable target and meets the Active Point limit of the NA.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Naked Modifier Cost. How does this work, and does it make sense?

 

Your breakdown is being caused by the fact that the "Naked" modifer concept only applies to Advantages (check page 244 of HS5Er). Trying to use it for Limitations makes the math go hinky.

[John Desmarais]

Re: Naked Modifier Cost. How does this work, and does it make sense?

 

Your breakdown is being caused by the fact that the "Naked" modifer concept only applies to Advantages (check page 244 of HS5Er). Trying to use it for Limitations makes the math go hinky.

 

Dang, slower than Ghost-Angel...

[Hal Owen]

Re: Naked Modifier Cost. How does this work, and does it make sense?

 

Thanks to ghost-angel and John Desmarais.

That makes perfect sense.

I knew there was something I was missing, I just could not see what it was.

 

So why aren't there Naked Limitations?

 

Or is that something that I don't really want to know, like the exact ingredients of sausage?

 

Hal Owen

[ghost-angel]

Re: Naked Modifier Cost. How does this work, and does it make sense?

 

Well, if you can apply and remove Naked Advantages at will, thus applying and removing any given advantage at will, how would a Limitation that can be removed when it's inconvenient be a Limitation? It can't and is thus worth 0 points.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Naked Modifier Cost. How does this work, and does it make sense?

 

So why aren't there Naked Limitations?

Actually I had an idea for adding Naked Limitations a while back. Here is a direct excerpt:

Actually' date=' I just had an idea. What if you allowed a Limitation to be applied similarly to a Naked Advantage, but what it would do is adjust the points you [i']spent[/i] on the Power to apply as if you had bought a Power with the same Real Cost but with the Limitation present? I would probably cost it according to the Active Point difference between a completely un-Limited Power of a given Real Cost and one with the same Real Cost but with the Limitation applied (this is where there would be maximum benefit). For example:

Naked Limitation: Increased End Cost: x2 (1 End per 5 Active Points) on up to 60 Active Points of EB [30 Active]

 

Justification:

A 60 Active Point Power with no Limitations has a Real Cost of 60. A Real Cost of 60 on a Power with

Increased End Cost: x2 (-1/2)

corresponds to 90 Active Points. Thus, the Active Point difference would be 90-60=30.

 

Now if this Naked Limitation were applied to:

EB: 6d6 energy; Area of Effect: Radius (+1); [60 Active] Concentrate: 1/2 DCV (-1/4); [48 Real]

it would be as if you had paid for the same Power with a 48 Real Cost and (-1/4)+(-1/2)=-3/4 in Limitations, which comes to (7/4)*48=84 Active Points. Adjusting for the Area of Effect Advantage, the EB is now 8d6. The more Limited the Power already is, the less effect you will gain.

You could then apply Adjustment-type Advantages to widen the kind of Powers the, "Naked Limitation," could be applied to, add suitable Limitations to it such as Requires a Skill Roll, etc. Just an idea.

[Hal Owen]

Re: Naked Modifier Cost. How does this work, and does it make sense?

 

Well' date=' if you can apply and remove Naked Advantages at will, thus applying and removing any given advantage at will, how would a Limitation that can be removed when it's inconvenient be a Limitation? It can't and is thus worth 0 points.[/quote']

 

Okay, that makes sense. I think what got me off track was the original poster (on the HD forum) talking about buying 'extra' DEX with a Limitation on it.

In that case it would make more sense to just buy the extra with the limitation, than to apply a Naked Modifier to it, even if there were "Negative Naked Modifiers".

 

I think the term "Naked Modifier" that HD uses threw me off a bit.

If it was just "Naked Advantage" then I might have caught on sooner to the fact that the Limitations were just Limiting the cost of the Advantage, instead of applying to the Power the Advantage is for.

 

Thanks for the help.

 

 

Hal Owen

[ghost-angel]

Re: Naked Modifier Cost. How does this work, and does it make sense?

 

Actually I had an idea for adding Naked Limitations a while back. Here is a direct excerpt:

I like the concept, but I don't think I would ever use it. I see too many problems arising from the construct personally.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Naked Modifier Cost. How does this work, and does it make sense?

 

Okay, that makes sense. I think what got me off track was the original poster (on the HD forum) talking about buying 'extra' DEX with a Limitation on it.

In that case it would make more sense to just buy the extra with the limitation, than to apply a Naked Modifier to it, even if there were "Negative Naked Modifiers".

 

I think the term "Naked Modifier" that HD uses threw me off a bit.

If it was just "Naked Advantage" then I might have caught on sooner to the fact that the Limitations were just Limiting the cost of the Advantage, instead of applying to the Power the Advantage is for.

 

Thanks for the help.

 

 

Hal Owen

No problem, that's what the forum is for - asking questions.

 

I had read the post in the HD Section you were talking about and have to say the poster seemed to have trouble reconciling the HERO Rules and how HD Implemented them, or at least how the Hero Rules worked.

[Hal Owen]

Re: Naked Modifier Cost. How does this work, and does it make sense?

 

I had read the post in the HD Section you were talking about and have to say the poster seemed to have trouble reconciling the HERO Rules and how HD Implemented them, or at least how the Hero Rules worked.

 

I haven't checked the thread lately, but I think the poster was headed down the same path I was so recently on.

 

If it doesn't look like they figured it out, I may post a link to this thread.

 

Thanks again.

[Lucius]

Re: Naked Modifier Cost. How does this work, and does it make sense?

 

Under what circumstances does it make sense to use a Naked Modifier?

QUOTE]

 

Well, not under these.

 

Forgive me for butting in before reading all the posts, but let me explain what I see you doing here.

 

You are taking an advantage (Costs End Only To Activate) and then putting a limitation on the advantage. This is, of course, ALWAYS going to get you a positive net point total.

 

Now, the limitation you are putting on it is "Costs End." What you making to cost Endurance is the ADVANTAGE - you spend endurance for the privilege of making the DEX, Life Support, whatever, to have the advantage of "Costs End Only To Activate."

 

Note, this is NOT going to make the underlying power cost any END whatsoever - because you didn't put the limitation on the DEX or whatever, you put the "Costs END" limit on the ADVANTAGE.

 

Now, the major problem I see is that the advantage is meaningless - since the underlying power does not cost END anyway, there is no point to giving it an advantage of "only costs END to activate." That is like taking a power that ALREADY does not cost END and giving it the advantage of "Half END cost." It has no point - except for the points being wasted.

 

Now, if you put the advantage and the limitation on the underlying power - say, the 15 DEX - then you have something that might make some kind of sense. It means it costs END to activate that DEX. Hopefully that then works out to the DEX costing less than it ordinarily would.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary Enterprises

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Naked Modifier Cost. How does this work, and does it make sense?

 

You cant do a Naked Limitation, but you can do a "Partially Limited Buy Off" on a Limitation.

 

To do so you take a Power and apply a Limitation to it normally, like:

 

Powerball: 10d6 EB, ET: Full Phase (-1/2); AP: 50, RC: 33; costs 5 END

 

Then buy a custom power with base points equal to the savings gained from the Limitation and then apply some other Limitation to that point total.

 

 

In this case the Limitation garners 17 points, so you effectuvely make a custom Power like this:

 

Quick EB; Limited Buy Off of Full Phase on Power Ball; x2 END (-1/2); AP: 17 points, RC: 11 points; (costs +4 END)

 

So basically, the character saved 17 points on their EB but it takes a Full Phase; However with effort they can fire it in a Half Phase. The net savings for the combined effect is 6 points.