Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

[Metaphysician]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

I think, then, there does not need to be a disagreement.

 

Basically, the only thing I suggest is not to pretend there *is* anyone like Batman or Cap or Iron Fist in your setting. There's superhumans, and relatively realistic level heroic humans, nothing in between. Sort of like the X-Men movies.

[Checkmate]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

That's nice. That works absolutely fine for your game. It's your campaign, you can ban whatever you like.

 

Now how do you suggest that the *rest* of us model the wuxia-themed characters that *already exist*, in canon?

If you were to follow my rules?

 

I guess I'd keep them the same with 4 SPD and use a lot of Powers as skills. Sort of like what people do now for speedsters. I mean you can have a passable speedster with a 5 speed using speed tricks.Use a lot of EGO v. EGO to determine who would go first, since a lot of SPD/DEX's would be the same. Or I might make some combo of EGO/INT/DEX to determine initutive (maybe include a d6)

[Susano]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

Sorry missed this before:

Actually I can't stand Wuxia so they would never be in my world.

 

I see. Even though they are basically Chinese (and Korean, and Japanese) super heroes? I mean, they can do all the classic super hero stunts (Super strength? Check. Super speed? Check. Bounce edged weapons [and sometimes bullets]? Check. Fly? Check.) What's wrong with that?

[OddHat]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

I see. Even though they are basically Chinese (and Korean' date=' and Japanese) super heroes? I mean, they can do all the classic super hero stunts (Super strength? Check. Super speed? Check. Bounce edged weapons [and sometimes bullets']? Check. Fly? Check.) What's wrong with that?

 

Many of them even wear distinctive costumes and maintain Secret IDs.

 

I have to add Wuxia cahracters to my timeline.

[Susano]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

Many of them even wear distinctive costumes and maintain Secret IDs.

 

I have to add Wuxia cahracters to my timeline.

 

Wong Fei Hong is a must.

[Gary]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

Many of them even wear distinctive costumes and maintain Secret IDs.

 

I have to add Wuxia cahracters to my timeline.

 

 

The greatest wuxia site to ever exist.

 

http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/

 

There are 2 completed novel translations, and lots that are partially completed. I highly recommend Sentimental Swordsman, Ruthless Sword.

 

The forum is also chock full of experts who can pretty much answer any questions you may have about Wuxia.

 

Another great Wuxia site is Wuxiapedia.

 

http://www.wuxiapedia.com/

[OddHat]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

The greatest wuxia site to ever exist.

 

http://www.spcnet.tv/forums/

 

There are 2 completed novel translations, and lots that are partially completed. I highly recommend Sentimental Swordsman, Ruthless Sword.

 

The forum is also chock full of experts who can pretty much answer any questions you may have about Wuxia.

 

Another great Wuxia site is Wuxiapedia.

 

http://www.wuxiapedia.com/

 

Dude! You rock!

 

As soon as I can, you're getting Wuxia rep.

[Checkmate]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

I see. Even though they are basically Chinese (and Korean' date=' and Japanese) super heroes? I mean, they can do all the classic super hero stunts (Super strength? Check. Super speed? Check. Bounce edged weapons [and sometimes bullets']? Check. Fly? Check.) What's wrong with that?

I didn't say anything was wrong with it, I just don't like the genre. I don't like wire-fu. Just my personal taste.

[Checkmate]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

You've got guts, I'll give you that. You couldn't have posted a more controversial text here if you tried to stat out Jesus Christ.

 

 

 

Good luck!

Wow I had no idea. Wish you coulda warned me BEFORE I posted.

[Logan D. Hurricanes]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

Wow I had no idea. Wish you coulda warned me BEFORE I posted.

Yeah, sorry, I'm still working on that whole time travel thing

 

Let me try something.

 

Dr. Destroyer would make Takofanes his b!tch!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quick...run!

[Eosin]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

Actually it does. most bricks are SPD 2 martial artists are spd 4.

 

I was basing my statement off your posted example which gives a SPD range of 6 for characters, who are for all purposes, in the same league. That is a fair dinkum strech of SPD in your game and far different than your posted range of 2 to 4.

 

I know that you are disowning the SPD chart you posted but that is what we had to work from.

 

Now you've finally gotten to the part of the post that was my point.

 

Totally wrong. How much formal training has Spidey and Quicksliver had in combat? Have either of them fought as much as Cap? No, this would give Cap MANY more skill levels, simulating his experience much better than simply raising his stats.

 

There are two ways to make someone a better fighter, the first would be to raise their DEX, the second would be add skill levels. Spidey fights well because he has a natural ability. he wasn't trained, his style came naturally to him reprersented by a high DEX.

 

Cap was trained to fight. He honed that training in the field. He isn't natually dexterous, he trained his body. Skill levels better represent this.

 

Please forget the whole speed chart I created. It is totally irrelevant. Anything past SPD 5 I just made up on the fly.

 

Well, that seems to be the problem doesn't it? Dex, SPD, and Combat Skills levels are all so closely intertwined that it can become pretty muddy.

 

Using your statement about Spidey and The Capt there is an 8 point combat skill difference favoring Spidey. Your version has him at OCV 11 and DCV 11 versus Caps 7/7.... Now you can give Capy an equal amount of skill levels to even things up (how about +2 All Combat, +3 OCV, & +3 DCV [shield]) but that still means Spiderman hands him his rear end since the good ole wall crawler acts nearly twice as fast as Capt America (BTW, I think Spidey wins 3 of 4 matches against Capy but that is a whole different can o'worms.). Your version has Spidey wondering what's up with the flunky holding the shield, even assuming that CA has 8 skill levels.

 

I suppose that it is possible that you think the captian has more than 8 CSLs but even 8 sounds pretty high to me.

 

Personally, I give Capy a 6 SPD with a 26 DEX and Spidey gets the 7 (or 8) SPD with a 33 DEX but I can see room for adjusting either one up or down. Spiderman has some martial arts (Passing Strike, Flying Grab, Flying Dodge, and maybe one or two more) but doesn't have much of anything by way of skill levels (+1 All Combat?). Capy has about 40-50 points in Martial Arts with 2 DCs on top of his +4 All Combat and his +3 Shield DCV bonus. In this version we get the ration of win/lose about where I think it should be and Spidey has to respect the funny man with his funky colored shield. From what you have shown me of your version Capy gets no respect from the Spider-Dude.

[Checkmate]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

I was basing my statement off your posted example which gives a SPD range of 6 for characters, who are for all purposes, in the same league. That is a fair dinkum strech of SPD in your game and far different than your posted range of 2 to 4.

 

I know that you are disowning the SPD chart you posted but that is what we had to work from.

 

 

 

Well, that seems to be the problem doesn't it? Dex, SPD, and Combat Skills levels are all so closely intertwined that it can become pretty muddy.

 

Using your statement about Spidey and The Capt there is an 8 point combat skill difference favoring Spidey. Your version has him at OCV 11 and DCV 11 versus Caps 7/7.... Now you can give Capy an equal amount of skill levels to even things up (how about +2 All Combat, +3 OCV, & +3 DCV [shield]) but that still means Spiderman hands him his rear end since the good ole wall crawler acts nearly twice as fast as Capt America (BTW, I think Spidey wins 3 of 4 matches against Capy but that is a whole different can o'worms.). Your version has Spidey wondering what's up with the flunky holding the shield, even assuming that CA has 8 skill levels.

 

I suppose that it is possible that you think the captian has more than 8 CSLs but even 8 sounds pretty high to me.

 

Personally, I give Capy a 6 SPD with a 26 DEX and Spidey gets the 7 (or 8) SPD with a 33 DEX but I can see room for adjusting either one up or down. Spiderman has some martial arts (Passing Strike, Flying Grab, Flying Dodge, and maybe one or two more) but doesn't have much of anything by way of skill levels (+1 All Combat?). Capy has about 40-50 points in Martial Arts with 2 DCs on top of his +4 All Combat and his +3 Shield DCV bonus. In this version we get the ration of win/lose about where I think it should be and Spidey has to respect the funny man with his funky colored shield. From what you have shown me of your version Capy gets no respect from the Spider-Dude.

But something you're forgetting is that when Cap blocks or dodges, he Blocks or dodges until he goes again. After a block Cap gets to do first. We've actually done it, and it works out pretty well. Especially since Cap has armor and a shiield where Spidey doesn't.

[Eosin]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

PS ~ Just trying to make sense of what you posted. It can be ugly in the hot seat but I think everyone is less interested in keeping things the same and more interested in looking at things from multiple angles even if we may not agree with them. I use a fair amount of non-standard rules in my game that would get me lit up like cheap hooker.

 

I tried to break the seperate agruements down from your post to isolate them and deal with what looked interesting, which to me is the vast SPD difference. We can disagree on who is faster than who and that don't make no nevermind, happens all the time round these parts.

[Eosin]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

But something you're forgetting is that when Cap blocks or dodges' date=' he Blocks or dodges until he goes again. After a block Cap gets to do first. We've actually done it, and it works out pretty well. Especially since Cap has armor and a shiield where Spidey doesn't.[/quote']

 

So Capy spends the whole combat in a block or dodge? A 2 to 1 action ratio with near equal OCV/DCV is a death sentence. Spidey just waits for an attack and then unloads on him... Cap aborts to a block, then another at -2, and then before his action can come around again at -4... It is all in the timing and in the ability to force an abort when you want it.

 

PS - note that Cap only goes first when they act on the same round. Not something in his favor.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

Yeah, sorry, I'm still working on that whole time travel thing

 

Let me try something.

 

Dr. Destroyer would make Takofanes his b!tch!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quick...run!

 

 

Only if he had preptime.

[Metaphysician]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

As for the side-scenario, ignoring the fact that, really, Spider-man *should* beat Cap easily ( superior strength, speed, *and* durability is a really really hard combo to overcome, think All-American vs Golden Avenger ), here's the thing. . .

 

Levels can make up for insufficient DEX. They *cannot* replace SPD in the same manner.

 

The best they can do is allow for easy sweeps and spreads, but even then, the high SPD is a much greater edge, because it allows multiple independent actions, and with greater flexibility in aborting.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

If you're sticking to the "normal maxima" concept, then logically:

1. characters defined as human should not have skill rolls exceeding 9+(cha/5)x2 I.e., if you have a 10 stat, your max skill roll should be 13; for a 15 stat, the max skill roll should be a 15; and for a 20, the max skill roll should be a 17.

No extraordinary skill rule.

2. similarly, the maximum bonus you get from combat skill levels should not exceed the base CV. So, Bats and Cap couldn't possibly have more than 7 CSLs under that system, without basically hitting a level of expertise best described as "superhuman". If you wanted symmetry with non-combat skill levels, they'd be limited to about 4 CSLs.

3. extra DCs with martial arts? Sure, as long as you don't exceed twice the base damage. Bats and Cap should do no more than 8d6 with their strongest attacks, and 6d6 with their more typical attacks.

[Checkmate]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

If you're sticking to the "normal maxima" concept, then logically:

1. characters defined as human should not have skill rolls exceeding 9+(cha/5)x2 I.e., if you have a 10 stat, your max skill roll should be 13; for a 15 stat, the max skill roll should be a 15; and for a 20, the max skill roll should be a 17.

No extraordinary skill rule.

I dont' follow this it's still a supers game. Stats are the only thing effected.

2. similarly' date=' the maximum bonus you get from combat skill levels should not exceed the base CV. So, Bats and Cap couldn't possibly have more than 7 CSLs under that system, without basically hitting a level of expertise best described as "superhuman". If you wanted symmetry with non-combat skill levels, they'd be limited to about 4 CSLs.[/quote']

Again it's still a supers game. Not used, jsut applies to stats.

3. extra DCs with martial arts? Sure' date=' as long as you don't exceed twice the base damage. Bats and Cap should do no more than 8d6 with their strongest attacks, and 6d6 with their more typical attacks.[/quote']

And it's still a Supers, this isn't followed either.

 

It's still a supers game. The only thing I've done is said that if you have a stat over the NCM and you haven't paid double, then it is a power. Everything else is supers rules.

[Susano]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

It's still a supers game. The only thing I've done is said that if you have a stat over the NCM and you haven't paid double' date=' then it is a power. Everything else is supers rules.[/quote']

 

Okay... wait... if stats over 20 that you don't pay double for are powers... what does that, exactly? I have to give SFX for my 40 STR, 26 DEX, 25 CON, 26 COM, and 6 SPD? Can't your game have fast and strong bricks? (Superman and Spider-Man come to mind here.)

[megaplayboy]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

I dont' follow this it's still a supers game. Stats are the only thing effected.

 

Again it's still a supers game. Not used, jsut applies to stats.

 

And it's still a Supers, this isn't followed either.

 

It's still a supers game. The only thing I've done is said that if you have a stat over the NCM and you haven't paid double, then it is a power. Everything else is supers rules.

So a "human" can have a superhuman level of martial arts skill, a superhuman level of combat skill, and a superhuman grasp of non-combat skills(all, without paying extra cost), but can't have a 21 DEX without paying an extra 3 points for it?

[OddHat]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

So a "human" can have a superhuman level of martial arts skill' date=' a superhuman level of combat skill, and a superhuman grasp of non-combat skills(all, without paying extra cost), but can't have a 21 DEX without paying an extra 3 points for it?[/quote']

 

Cap has never really been a "normal" human anyway. That was the whole point of the Super Soldier formula.

 

As to Bats, he started out more normal than Cap. These days he should be able to take down Kryptonians given moderate prep time.

 

Note that I have nothing against avoiding stat inflation; I try to do so myself. I just don't mind the 5th ed "30 is Legendary" rule. It doesn't mean that even elite special forces soldiers should have over 14 (or whatever) DEX; it just means that a few humans can exceed all "normal" limits. From a history of athletic performance point of view, that's not such a stretch. In comics, it's expected.

[Checkmate]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

Okay... wait... if stats over 20 that you don't pay double for are powers... what does that' date=' exactly? I have to give SFX for my 40 STR, 26 DEX, 25 CON, 26 COM, and 6 SPD? Can't your game have fast and strong bricks? (Superman and Spider-Man come to mind here.)[/quote']

First, if you say you are a highly trained human, then no you can't have those stats. If you say you are a mutant with the ability to shoot lasers out of your eyes AND it increased those stats I will disapprove your character as the two don't make sense. To me it's like saying I'm a mutant with Icepowers and make trees grow large. The two powers just don't go together.

 

It also means that if you end up some place that takes away all your powers, your stats are part of your powers.

 

Yes you can have fast strong bricks, but the difference is what is reasonably fast in your games, is lightspeed in my games. A brick with a 4 speed moves like Bruce Lee in my games.

 

So a "human" can have a superhuman level of martial arts skill' date=' a superhuman level of combat skill, and a superhuman grasp of non-combat skills(all, without paying extra cost), but can't have a 21 DEX without paying an extra 3 points for it?[/quote']

Exactly. I realize it might not make sense to you, but it's about conception. As I've said, you can make someone a better fighter by giving them higher DEX or more skill levels. If you have trained yourself to fight, it shouldn't also mean you're better at basketball, or Tennis if you haven't trained yourself their too. Someone who was gifted with powers of super DEX would be better at everything dexterous they tried.

[Susano]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

First, if you say you are a highly trained human, then no you can't have those stats. If you say you are a mutant with the ability to shoot lasers out of your eyes AND it increased those stats I will disapprove your character as the two don't make sense. To me it's like saying I'm a mutant with Icepowers and make trees grow large. The two powers just don't go together.

 

It also means that if you end up some place that takes away all your powers, your stats are part of your powers.

 

So how do you allow Superman? I mean Captain Marvel has his speed right in his origin, but what about Supes?

 

Basically, it seems to me that if you give a certain set of SFX, then you get to buy X stats, but if you don't then you're limited to "human normal."

 

Personally, I understand the reasoning, but don't like the execution. It strikes me as contrary to the source material, which allows such things to exist.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

 

Exactly. I realize it might not make sense to you, but it's about conception. As I've said, you can make someone a better fighter by giving them higher DEX or more skill levels. If you have trained yourself to fight, it shouldn't also mean you're better at basketball, or Tennis if you haven't trained yourself their too. Someone who was gifted with powers of super DEX would be better at everything dexterous they tried.

If I go to the gym and work out obsessively, I can get dramatically stronger and tougher. If I work on my reflexes and flexibility at the same time, I can become more agile as well. ANY athletic endeavor I tried my hand at, I'd be a little better at, because I had conditioned my body to be "better".

You can generally improve your physical conditioning, and in the real world there are dramatic differences between "normal" and "the best", differences which a 10 point stat difference fail to adequately address, imo.

 

But why should a "human" character have to pay double to make themselves a little bit quicker or stronger than 99.9999% of the population, and pay normal cost to have a level of martial arts skill or computer programming skill which no one in the real world could possibly achieve?

It's not consistent. It may be what works for your campaign, but it doesn't seem logically consistent to me. If being "human" restricts your ability to achieve superhuman accomplishments, it should do so across the board, not just in terms of primary and figured stats. And if a "human" can achieve levels of skill which nobody in the real world could possibly attain, why not let them attain levels of strength or agility which are only slightly beyond what people in the real world can attain?

 

oh, well. That's my .02...

[Checkmate]

Re: Batman, the Disgustingly Powerful Ninja

 

So how do you allow Superman? I mean Captain Marvel has his speed right in his origin, but what about Supes?

 

Basically, it seems to me that if you give a certain set of SFX, then you get to buy X stats, but if you don't then you're limited to "human normal."

This is exactly right. Orgin defines your limits.

 

Personally' date=' I understand the reasoning, but don't like the execution. It strikes me as contrary to the source material, which allows such things to exist.[/quote']

And I said at the begining I dont' agree with the source material.

 

There is a lot I'm not going into about chargen in my Face to Face games. Like You submit an origin and history before you even see a character sheet. If you've only been adventuring for a short time, I'll limit the number of skill levels you can have.

 

You also have to understand my GM'ing style. If you took KS: Wines, and the the only reason you took it was because you felt your background meant your character should have it, that skill will save the world at some point in my campaign. It is something no other character had and gives your character the chance to shine.

 

To me the most important part of character creation is the background and origin, not the numbers on the character sheet.

If I go to the gym and work out obsessively' date=' I can get dramatically stronger and tougher. If I work on my reflexes and flexibility at the same time, I can become more agile as well. ANY athletic endeavor I tried my hand at, I'd be a little better at, because I had conditioned my body to be "better".[/quote']

There are a few things I disagree with: First, I don't care how much a normal human works out, he will NEVER be able to lift up a small plane, can we agree on this? Well if you let human max go to 30, that's exactly what a normal human could accomplish.

Second: My brother-in-law swam in the Olympics. He is an olympic level athlete, while I am a slightly overweight, aging computer geek. I kick his butt at basketball EVERY TIME we play.

 

A friend of mine owns a Tae-Kwon-Do Dojo. He practices EVERY DAY with his students. Him and my bother-in-law RARELY beat me two on one in basketball.

 

I've played Basketball since I could walk. I used to train everyday. I was the only freshman (and the only white kid) on my Varisty Basketball team in highschool, and still hold the record for being the only freshman starter. I coudln't hit a baseball if my life depended on it.

 

This is how I look at things. No matter how much I train how to fight, it won't make me better at basketball. No matter how much I train at swimming, it won't make be better at Tae-Kwon-Do.

 

Remeber, if you have a 13 STR and DEX you are still HIGHLY trained compared to the rest of the people out there. You are twice as fast and as strong as the average person (average person = 8 5 over = 2x as good).

 

 

You can generally improve your physical conditioning' date=' and in the real world there are dramatic differences between "normal" and "the best", differences which a 10 point stat difference fail to adequately address, imo.[/quote']

 

Actually it's a 12 point difference. Remember most ordinary people only have an 8, but I get your point, and I disagree.

 

Also remember that for every 5 points you have just doubled the abilty. 15 STR is 2x a 10 STR. a 20 STR is 2x a 15 STR. I think having someone at the upper end who is as strong as 4 normal fit people (10 STR) is a pretty large gap.

But why should a "human" character have to pay double to make themselves a little bit quicker or stronger than 99.9999% of the population, and pay normal cost to have a level of martial arts skill or computer programming skill which no one in the real world could possibly achieve?

It's not consistent. It may be what works for your campaign, but it doesn't seem logically consistent to me. If being "human" restricts your ability to achieve superhuman accomplishments, it should do so across the board, not just in terms of primary and figured stats. And if a "human" can achieve levels of skill which nobody in the real world could possibly attain, why not let them attain levels of strength or agility which are only slightly beyond what people in the real world can attain?

I covered a lot of this above. 99.999999% of the population have 8 DEX's so even a 15 is god-like.

 

You may not think it consistent, but it all fits. I can have Superman feel like Superman while having Batman be challenged by normals, like in the comics.