How does this grab you?

[Gary]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

A boxer's punch (or any trained punch for that matter) is "High Shot" for free (2d6+1)' date=' which is a 1 in 6 chance of hitting the head. Additionally, they can do a "Head Shot" at only -4 to make that a 1 in 3 chance. Factoring in skill and possibly PSLs (which I suggest enforcing a -1/2 limitation to never reduce penalty below half) make this easily attainable.[/quote']

 

 

In reality, it's far greater than 1 in 6 (or even 1 in 3) that the head is hit when targetted. And a 4 pt OCV penalty means that the attack will most likely miss, especially since the other boxer likely has just as many CSLs, and probably DCV bonuses from a martial maneuver if he's good.

 

The -8 is all a game balance issue. It's not nearly that hard in reality.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

You deduct defences before multiplying, and, with respect, HOW Bull gets hold of him is not really relevant. Say he is tied to the bed awake. It doesn't matter.

 

And YES, the strongest are not necessarily the best grapplers, but that is only becasue the game, and the real world, has martial arts which (in game terms) icrease strength for specific purposes. Even then, once the fight becomes a grapple it is strength that is more important than technique a lot of the time. I've fought a British Judo Champion: very nice girl, but only about 3/4 of my weight. She threw me all over the ring. When it came to groundwork though, I was able to hold my own simplt through superior strength. Superior technique allows you to overcome SOME strength imbalance, or handily beat someone of equal strength, but I stick b y original assertion.

 

As for boxers, well, Hero is not a boxing game. You get points for hitting the head, so there is probably a special manaouvre, doing 1 point but cancelling the location penalties - you are trying for a strike, not to damage. the occasonal OK is the one that took the location penalty, but hit anyway. You don't box like that in a bar.

 

It makes NO sense to me that it is going to take 3 SPD BULL some 12 minutes game time (on average) to cause Mouse damage after initially grabbing him. Gary makes a sensible suggestion in saying it is a bame balance issue but:

 

1. It didn't used to work like that. This is not an improvement to my mind.

2. If it is game balance it has gone too far the other way. Say you can use STR or DEX to try and break free if you like - that is a balancing rule (not a reality mirror by any means, but a GAME balancing rule). The way it is now is just silly.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

You do not deduct defenses before multiplying. Suprised (5ER 380), Hit Location (5ER 414). For STUN damage, all multipliers are before defenses.

 

12 minutes? I assume you are calculating out the number of rolls based on his success chance. I agree it should be easier, we just disagree as to how much. I don't think a DEX 10 goon should be able to apply his STR on a DEX 20 character very easily - too squirmy. He should just find a nice concrete floor/wall/metal pipe and throw him into it for +2d6 damage (hard surface).

 

1. You didn't used to be able to grab locations either. I have 4th edition and there is nothing in there about grabbing locations. So, it was introduced in 5th (or Ninja Hero 4th) and then altered due to game balance issues. Why is that surprising? The game evolves.

 

2. We obviously disagree. There are martial maneuvers that have the disable element, choke hold, etc. that all represent skilled grappling and cost points. You are granting Grab something that none of these maneuvers have and that is extremely effective. No other attack can do that. Does the -1 OCV, -2 DCV penalty for performing the Grab (and the 1/2 DCV if successful) justify adding continuous damage? I don't think so, but you obviously do. There's also no reason to add the DEX thing - that's already part of Contortionist or an Escape Maneuver.

 

I'm not being snarky when I say this, so please do not take it that way. You had mentioned before you were suprised by how grabbed worked (now) and then you make the statement that multipliers are applied after defenses (which is true for BODY but not for STUN). Perhaps there are other rules out there that you have misinterpreted which is making these realignments seem inappropriate. I hope I said that right. Basically, the rules as presented are designed to work together (as much as possible, one assumes) and that misinterpreting one can drastically knock the others out of balance.

 

We can certainly kick this around but I think it comes down to you like how you've been playing it and this new information would change that. Then keep playing. There are those of us that have been playing with it as written and feel that it is well balanced as is. You asked if it was just you that thought this rule was odd. I do not and I think the rule works very well, and there is still very much a lot of grabtastic action in my games.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

You do not deduct defenses before multiplying. Suprised (5ER 380), Hit Location (5ER 414). For STUN damage, all multipliers are before defenses.

 

12 minutes? I assume you are calculating out the number of rolls based on his success chance. I agree it should be easier, we just disagree as to how much. I don't think a DEX 10 goon should be able to apply his STR on a DEX 20 character very easily - too squirmy. He should just find a nice concrete floor/wall/metal pipe and throw him into it for +2d6 damage (hard surface).

 

1. You didn't used to be able to grab locations either. I have 4th edition and there is nothing in there about grabbing locations. So, it was introduced in 5th (or Ninja Hero 4th) and then altered due to game balance issues. Why is that surprising? The game evolves.

 

2. We obviously disagree. There are martial maneuvers that have the disable element, choke hold, etc. that all represent skilled grappling and cost points. You are granting Grab something that none of these maneuvers have and that is extremely effective. No other attack can do that. Does the -1 OCV, -2 DCV penalty for performing the Grab (and the 1/2 DCV if successful) justify adding continuous damage? I don't think so, but you obviously do. There's also no reason to add the DEX thing - that's already part of Contortionist or an Escape Maneuver.

 

I'm not being snarky when I say this, so please do not take it that way. You had mentioned before you were suprised by how grabbed worked (now) and then you make the statement that multipliers are applied after defenses (which is true for BODY but not for STUN). Perhaps there are other rules out there that you have misinterpreted which is making these realignments seem inappropriate. I hope I said that right. Basically, the rules as presented are designed to work together (as much as possible, one assumes) and that misinterpreting one can drastically knock the others out of balance.

 

We can certainly kick this around but I think it comes down to you like how you've been playing it and this new information would change that. Then keep playing. There are those of us that have been playing with it as written and feel that it is well balanced as is. You asked if it was just you that thought this rule was odd. I do not and I think the rule works very well, and there is still very much a lot of grabtastic action in my games.

 

Surprised, you do multiply before defences, but hit locations you work out the damage after defences THEN multiply, not before. We are all learning something about the rules all the time, eh? I do think you are missing the point about surprised though - I wish I'd never mentioned it, it is nothing to do with the central point of the thread.

 

If you don't like Mouse and Bull, use Bull and Bull - equally difficult - or Mouse and Mouse - it is all even sillier - if you have a grip on the neck, you are not going to damage the target in a realistic time.

 

12 minutes was a miscalculation - it takes 7.2 minytes assuming 108 rolls on average tp get a 3 on 3d6. Even so, it is too much.

 

There's nothing in 5ER about grabbing locations, is there? We all seem to be assuming you can though.

 

Hit location modifiers asre a way of making it difficult to hit locations. Once you have though, you have hold of it. the rules are clear enough about that - miss the roll and you have not let go. That roll is just there to see if you are able to apply damage. That makes no sense, and I'm not sure why arule that departs that far from reality is getting any support at all.

 

Let us take out the hit location point: you grab someone in a no hit location game, what is the point of the rule? Ogre gets you in a bearhug, you are able to wriggle enough that he can't squeeze you and hurt you but not enough to improve your position or escape? Why? Where is the need? It is a pointless extra roll that doesn't model EXPECTATIONS, and that is what matters to me in a game more than anything else: the mechanics should not jar, they should be invisible unless you are looking for them, and anything that breaks that is bad in my book. This change was unnecessary and detrimental.

 

For two people of average normal abilty it simply halves the rate at which grapples do damage. If that is what you are after, why not halve damage after defences? But it doesn't JUST do that - it changes the dynamic, depending on - well all sorts of stuff.

 

Two protagonists with 10 DEX, damage will be casued 50% of the time. Two protagonists with 20 DEX, damage will be caused 91% of the time. Again, nonsensical.

 

Here's one for you: I think the test of a good rule is that it fulfils some need. For some it is adding a level of detail, some are there for game balance. Tell me, what need does this rule fulfil?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

Defenses: You are correct. I always forget that one aberration of Normal Damage. Everything STUN multiplies before hand (surprise, hit loc, vulnerabilities) except for normal damage.

 

As for Surprise, I think it's important because Bull has to grab Mouse in the first place. If Mouse wasn't surprised the Bull probably couldn't get the headlock in the first place.

 

There is nothing about Grabbing locations I can see in 5ER but there is a whole section on it in the Combat Handbook.

 

The point of the rule is to ensure that just because you grab someone doesn't mean you can unconditionally damage them every phase. That's all.

 

My expectations for a lock, or arm bar, or grab is that I will have hold of the target until they escape. As for applying damage, the target will resist my ability to apply damage. Prior to 5th edition I always diced it out as a contest of STR to determine if you do anything besides damage someone - perhaps that would be a better way of handling it: once the hold is established, using all normal modifiers, you can either squeeze for basic damage or win a contest of STR to control/block/redirect/apply damage to the location.

 

I think the rule does fulfill a need - game balance.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

Defenses: You are correct. I always forget that one aberration of Normal Damage. Everything STUN multiplies before hand (surprise, hit loc, vulnerabilities) except for normal damage.

 

As for Surprise, I think it's important because Bull has to grab Mouse in the first place. If Mouse wasn't surprised the Bull probably couldn't get the headlock in the first place.

 

There is nothing about Grabbing locations I can see in 5ER but there is a whole section on it in the Combat Handbook.

 

The point of the rule is to ensure that just because you grab someone doesn't mean you can unconditionally damage them every phase. That's all.

 

My expectations for a lock, or arm bar, or grab is that I will have hold of the target until they escape. As for applying damage, the target will resist my ability to apply damage. Prior to 5th edition I always diced it out as a contest of STR to determine if you do anything besides damage someone - perhaps that would be a better way of handling it: once the hold is established, using all normal modifiers, you can either squeeze for basic damage or win a contest of STR to control/block/redirect/apply damage to the location.

 

I think the rule does fulfill a need - game balance.

 

Balance would surely be a good thing to strive for, but this does not achieve that - it deals with similar situations differently (see the example of two 10 DEX characters fighting, and two 20 DEX characters fighting - very different result) even if you ignore the hit location point. To that extent I simply do not see that this rule works.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

And I simply see that it does, and each of us is unable to convice the other.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

And I simply see that it does' date=' and each of us is unable to convice the other.[/quote']

 

Oh go on, try

 

Give me a reason why, without bothering with hit locations or anything like that, two 20 DEX/otherwise equal characters grappling each other cause damage 91% of the time and two 10 DEX/otherwise equal characters only damage each other 50% of the time, under the rules as they currently stand.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

DEX 10 vs. DEX 10: Attack roll after initial grab is 11 + 3 - 2 = 12-. That's 75%.

 

DEX 20 vs. DEX 20: Attack roll after initial grab is 11 + 7 - 4 = 14-. That's 91%.

 

How did you arrive at 50%? If you apply the -1 OCV for grab (which I don't have my combat handbook so it's unclear to me), then it drops to 11- and 13- which is 62% and 84%.

 

As for the difference, it's hard to say, but it is at best 16% and at worst only 22%. Certainly not the 41% you allude to. It is somewhat counter-intuitive that two eqully matched abilities at different levels don't result in the same chance. However, I could see that the disadvantage of being grappled is more significant with highly adept grapplers than with average ones. It doesn't seem broken to me.

 

Watch two untrained people fight and there is a lot of unfulfilled attacks going on. Watch to trained people and a greater proportion of attacks are fulfilled. This seems to fit that model.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

 

 

 

just make up some bloody rules for your game Sean. I, and at least a few others, see no problem with Grab, subsequent grappling and related "realities" as they stand in the System.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

DEX 10 vs. DEX 10: Attack roll after initial grab is 11 + 3 - 2 = 12-. That's 75%.

 

DEX 20 vs. DEX 20: Attack roll after initial grab is 11 + 7 - 4 = 14-. That's 91%.

 

How did you arrive at 50%? If you apply the -1 OCV for grab (which I don't have my combat handbook so it's unclear to me), then it drops to 11- and 13- which is 62% and 84%.

 

As for the difference, it's hard to say, but it is at best 16% and at worst only 22%. Certainly not the 41% you allude to. It is somewhat counter-intuitive that two eqully matched abilities at different levels don't result in the same chance. However, I could see that the disadvantage of being grappled is more significant with highly adept grapplers than with average ones. It doesn't seem broken to me.

 

Watch two untrained people fight and there is a lot of unfulfilled attacks going on. Watch to trained people and a greater proportion of attacks are fulfilled. This seems to fit that model.

 

I go t 50% because I did the calculation wrong

 

I agree with you that there is a difference between trained and untrained fighters fighting but:

 

1. where you have fighters of high equal ability, you get just as many attacks not making contact because they are both equally trained.

2. the scenario posits two fighters of equal natural ability - no training is needed to make the rule not work.

 

 

 

 

 

just make up some bloody rules for your game Sean. I, and at least a few others, see no problem with Grab, subsequent grappling and related "realities" as they stand in the System.

 

Making up rules is what has caused this problem, because I had no problem until they changed the way it had been done for years. That change, mark you, came in 5ER - it was not in FRED. Is that honestly the way you used to do it? And if not did you honestly see a problem with the way it was done that this rule change has 'fixed'?

[prestidigitator]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

The wording for Grabs did change significantly. It used to (seem to) imply that you could do successive Squeezes or Throws without an attack roll, but the story is that the change in wording is a clarification, and it was always the designers' conception that attack rolls were necessary. (I don't buy the, "Needs an Attack Action," argument, as using Aid on a friendly target, performing a Dodge, or using a No Range Area of Effect attack also require Attack Actions, but no attack roll; I think the, "definition," of an Attack Action being anything that requires an attack roll is more like a guideline for when things are uncertain).

 

BTW, I personally find it amusing when boxing examples are used for combat comparisons, as boxing is a pretty contrived sport that has little similarity to real combat (it may help develop some limited combat technique and mentality, but the actual event in the ring with a referee and rules such as not grappling or hitting below the belt is so far off it becomes silly).

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

Honestly, my grabs don't usually last longer than 2 phases. For dramatic reasons, the first phase was a squeeze and the second phase was throw the target into someone/something. The second phase always involved an attack roll because I was throwing the target at something. I can't recall the number of wrestling matches that came up in our games, but they were few.

 

So, I don't have a problem with the rules because the issue you are describing didn't come up that often. And as I see the rules now, I don't have a problem with the 5ER method of resolution.

 

Another reason I don't mind is I stopped playing GURPS a while ago. one of the reasons I played GURPS is because of how great a simulation the combat system was, and it was tons of fun - I really enjoyed it, and never had a combat, large or small, group or single, that wasn't exciting. I came back to Hero because I wanted less of a simulation and more of an objective approximation - cinematic realism - and I think the current system handles that well. I don't want untrained grapplers to put people in headlocks - that should be reserved for those characters that paid points to have that ability as a schtick. 15-20 points of martial arts would make a wrestler capable of putting someone in a headlock with ease, and that's how I like it.

 

4 Martial Grab

3 Choke Hold

4 Martial Escape

4 +4 PSL (only while Grappling -2)

==

15

+6 +2 w/ Wrestling

==

21

or, alternatively, +5 or +7 w/ Grab, Escape, & Disarm. This would be probably more flexible than the maneuvers, but either approach can be successful. For instance, +5 w/ Grab and make Grab -1 OCV/-1 DCV and +10 STR, same as a Martial Grab. Escape would also be +10 STR.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

Honestly, my grabs don't usually last longer than 2 phases. For dramatic reasons, the first phase was a squeeze and the second phase was throw the target into someone/something. The second phase always involved an attack roll because I was throwing the target at something. I can't recall the number of wrestling matches that came up in our games, but they were few.

 

So, I don't have a problem with the rules because the issue you are describing didn't come up that often. And as I see the rules now, I don't have a problem with the 5ER method of resolution.

 

Another reason I don't mind is I stopped playing GURPS a while ago. one of the reasons I played GURPS is because of how great a simulation the combat system was, and it was tons of fun - I really enjoyed it, and never had a combat, large or small, group or single, that wasn't exciting. I came back to Hero because I wanted less of a simulation and more of an objective approximation - cinematic realism - and I think the current system handles that well. I don't want untrained grapplers to put people in headlocks - that should be reserved for those characters that paid points to have that ability as a schtick. 15-20 points of martial arts would make a wrestler capable of putting someone in a headlock with ease, and that's how I like it.

 

4 Martial Grab

3 Choke Hold

4 Martial Escape

4 +4 PSL (only while Grappling -2)

==

15

+6 +2 w/ Wrestling

==

21

or, alternatively, +5 or +7 w/ Grab, Escape, & Disarm. This would be probably more flexible than the maneuvers, but either approach can be successful. For instance, +5 w/ Grab and make Grab -1 OCV/-1 DCV and +10 STR, same as a Martial Grab. Escape would also be +10 STR.

 

 

...and more power to your elbow! Now I think that once you are grappling* it is relatively difficult to get in a position that you can cause continuing damage to an opponent, unless you resort to punches and gouging BUT once you have someone in a position where you can cause ongoing damage, you've more or less won.

 

Of course Hero defines the damage you cause in grappling as squeezing OR bashing someone into something. I don't see those as the same or even similar things at all.

 

If you have someone's arm and want to swing them into a wall without letting go, then I think that you SHOULD be making attack rolls each time you want to do it - they have a chance to avoid that, clearly. If OTOH you have managed to twist their arm up behind them or got a good grip on the wind-pipe then squeezing is not something that requires anything more than a contraction of muscle, and it really is then just about strength v strength.

 

I would not mind seeing a rule that said that only trained grapplers can put continuously damaging moves on someone (a simpilification, to be sure, but a justifyable one) or that you needed to make a (single) second roll, or a roll at a greater than normal penalty to apply a continous damage attack.

 

I think my gravest concern though is this (and if grapples and grabs don't come up much then no problemo) it is pointless and time wasting.

 

Why? Well in most campaigns where the average CV is 4-6 then you will be hitting (on average) on a 13 or 14 or less, so 80-90% of the time, and obviously more often as CV goes up: frankly the 'balance' imbued by avoiding 1 in 10 applications of damage does not seem worth the added effort of making 10 rolls to determine the outcome.

 

 

 

*and virtually every 'untrained' fight ends up with grappling or someone defenceless on the floor getting booted....

[prestidigitator]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

If you have someone's arm and want to swing them into a wall without letting go, then I think that you SHOULD be making attack rolls each time you want to do it - they have a chance to avoid that, clearly. If OTOH you have managed to twist their arm up behind them or got a good grip on the wind-pipe then squeezing is not something that requires anything more than a contraction of muscle, and it really is then just about strength v strength.

 

I would not mind seeing a rule that said that only trained grapplers can put continuously damaging moves on someone (a simpilification, to be sure, but a justifyable one) or that you needed to make a (single) second roll, or a roll at a greater than normal penalty to apply a continous damage attack.

It doesn't really help with the continuous aspect of it, but you could probably use the Cover maneuver for your examples, allowing the grabber to put the grabee into a position where damage can be inflicted and then holding off for a time. If the attacker is strong (or well trained) enough to cause some serious hurt with one attack (possibly breaking limbs or Knocking Out with a single appropriate hit), continuous damage is probably overkill anyway.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

It doesn't really help with the continuous aspect of it' date=' but you could probably use the Cover maneuver for your examples, allowing the grabber to put the grabee into a position where damage can be inflicted and then holding off for a time. If the attacker is strong (or well trained) enough to cause some serious hurt with one attack (possibly breaking limbs or Knocking Out with a single appropriate hit), continuous damage is probably overkill anyway.[/quote']

 

I think that is an excellent idea, a good dramatic reality model. In fact it is also how most sports involving grappling work - you put your opponent in a position where they know it is all over and they (in theory) surrender.

[Agent X]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

I could see making an argument for halving the hit location penalties once the hold is established. On the other hand, properly applying a hold to a specific location is challenging. A bear hug is simple, but leveraging the neck to actually cause harm (and gain the hit location bonus).

 

Alternatively, you could say that as long as you suceed on the hit location roll (without a hit location modifier) you still get to apply damage, but without the hit location multiplier. So, if you successfully grab someone's neck (at -8), your subsequent attacks will cause normal damage if you make the roll, and cause x2 BODY x5 STUN if you make the roll by 8.

 

Now, here's the monkey in the wrench. Remember that the head is just a limb and can be grabbed at no OCV penalty. However, there is no bonus damage for doing so, you just control the victim's head.

 

HSCH 67 talks about hit locations. Targeting location 5 (at normal penalties) gets you the bonus damage and blocks breathing. Locs 3-4 just do extra damage. As a house rule you might say that even if you fail at a subsequent attack roll on loc 5, you still prevent breathing.

IRL, I've never had trouble once I put a choke on someone, keeping the choke on them. It's more difficult to switch from the arm to the choke than to maintain the choke. And keeping the pressure on the neck just isn't that hard to do. It's possible for someone to work out of a choke but they have to know what they're doing and they have to be "better" than the guy putting the choke on. Someone working out of the choke ought to be an action on the part of the chokee not the choker. The choker doesn't "re-cinch" the choke or anything. All they have to do is maintain pressure and react to the movements of the chokee (assuming they are in a good guarded position from the chokee performing a groin grab/groin smash/eye gouge/instep stomp or the like.

 

The grab rules don't seem to want to admit the advantages someone actually possesses once they have someone in their grasp.

 

Steve Long seems to be needlessly complicating things... again.

[Just Joe]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

Balance would surely be a good thing to strive for' date=' but this does not achieve that - it deals with similar situations differently (see the example of two 10 DEX characters fighting, and two 20 DEX characters fighting - very different result) even if you ignore the hit location point. To that extent I simply do not see that this rule works.[/quote']Yeah, but this is a more general problem (applying to any situation in which someone's DCV is halved) that I'm inclined to consider tangental to this discussion.

 

If you have someone's arm and want to swing them into a wall without letting go' date=' then I think that you SHOULD be making attack rolls each time you want to do it - they have a chance to avoid that, clearly.[/quote']Though, if I may be forgiven for complicating matters further, it depends in part on relative strengths. If the attacker is A LOT stronger (e.g., 50 vs. 15), then it's going to be awfully hard to avoid that damage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

Yeah' date=' but this is a more general problem (applying to any situation in which someone's DCV is halved) that I'm inclined to consider tangental to this discussion.[/quote']

 

Agreed, although it is made a problem for grab, which is where I can see it coming up most often, by the change in the rules, so I don't think it is tangental to the discussion on the need for this rule change.

 

Though' date=' if I may be forgiven for complicating matters further, it depends in part on relative strengths. If the attacker is A LOT stronger (e.g., 50 vs. 15), then it's going to be awfully hard to avoid that damage.[/quote']

 

You are quite right: I was trying to make concessions and see some sense in the rule. In most cases the halving of DCV makes a 'hit' a near certainty in any event, but I quite agree that if a 60 STR/10 DEX brick has a 10 STR/30 DEX martial artist in a bearhug it seems...odd...that he can only damage him if he rolls 9 or less on 3d6 (a little over a third of attempts) - his strength advantage is overwhelming and should be reflected as such in the rules.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

High STR is only reflected as a reduction in penalties for the grabber, essentially making it easier for the grabber to hold on to the grabbed and do other things (like attack other characters).

 

Here's an interesting thought... what if you allowed those with excess STR to trade 5 STR for +1 OCV? In your 60/10 10/30 example above, the grabber could give up 30 STR for +6 OCV and still have a 20 STR advantage on the 10 STR character.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

In the 20/10 10/20 comparison, this would allow the 20STR character to get +2 OCV for even odds on STR.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

High STR is only reflected as a reduction in penalties for the grabber, essentially making it easier for the grabber to hold on to the grabbed and do other things (like attack other characters).

 

Here's an interesting thought... what if you allowed those with excess STR to trade 5 STR for +1 OCV? In your 60/10 10/30 example above, the grabber could give up 30 STR for +6 OCV and still have a 20 STR advantage on the 10 STR character.

 

I'd be happy with that: it reflects the increased role of raw power in a grapple situation: good plan!

[Just Joe]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

Here's an interesting thought... what if you allowed those with excess STR to trade 5 STR for +1 OCV? In your 60/10 10/30 example above' date=' the grabber could give up 30 STR for +6 OCV and still have a 20 STR advantage on the 10 STR character.[/quote']I like this idea, but I would be tempted to make the OCV bonus automatic, without having to give up the STR. Is your idea that the STR given up would reduce damage as well as STR for the purpose of holding?

[Just Joe]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

Agreed, although it is made a problem for grab, which is where I can see it coming up most often, by the change in the rules, so I don't think it is tangental to the discussion on the need for this rule change.

I'll buy that

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

No, I don't think it would reduce damage but it would make it easier to escape - the idea is the brute is focusing more on applying STR rather than resisting escape attempts.