How does this grab you?

[Sean Waters]

I asked a couple of questions of Mr Long culminating with this one:

 

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39323

 

Now my understanding of Grab has always been:

 

1. Attack roll (with grab modifiers) to hit

2. Throw the grabbed character (which breaks the grab) or hold/squeeze which doesn't

3. Grabbed character can make a breakout roll on their next action.

 

I'd always thought that you get a breakout roll as soon as you are grabbed, but I can't see that rule anywhere so I was clearly making it up, and indeed, it appears that if you do less than twice the BODY on your breakout roll of the BODY to hold you, it takes you a full phase to break out. I certainly had not known that - it makes grabbing an incredibly useful tactic against single villains even if they are much stronger than you - so long as they do not have twice as much strength.

 

Anyway, that is an aside - the bit that worried me, specifically about the answer was that I always understood that if you grabbed and squeezed, and the opponent did not break out, any subsequent repeat of the action meant that you did not need to make an attack roll (although it did count as an attack for that phase, obviously).

 

Is it just me?

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

We allow casual str breakout before the throw/crush. And I would allow an abort to a full-str breakout, but I've never had anyone try it.

 

We've house-ruled (well, I assume it's a house rule) grabs to be more in line with entangles and such - if you break out, you still have a half-phase. If you double + , you have a full phase.

 

Not having to make attack rolls for the second and subsequent rounds never bothered me. If it concerns you, I imagine you could start at 18- for a held opponent, and add modifiers for how close they got to breaking out last attempt to reflect them struggling, and how much of your own str is being used to restrain, and not damage. Hmm. Maybe reduce the max damage you can do on the crush by 1 for every body of the breakout attempt, or drop 1DC for every 2 or 3 body of the breakout attempt.

 

But I have no real issues with squeezing as is.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

The point about the attack rolls is the intraction of grab with hit locations for extra damage - if I grab someone by the throat (-8 OCV) and I don't need to make attack rolls every phase, then keeping hold of the throat is really just a matter of strength: if I do need to make rolls every phase then maintaining a grip on a specific location would be almost impossible, even with the target's reduced DCV, and I don't really see why it should be hardert o maintain a grip on a nexk than, say, a leg.

 

The casual strength breakout is a storming idea, but the time it takes to breakout is an official rule, but is in the 'Other Combat Effects' section.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

It's just you.

 

The first squeeze/throw is free because it's part of the initial attack roll.

 

I'd have to look, but I was pretty sure the Grabbed got their casual STR in the initial Grab to try and break free.

 

After that, you're just trying to hold onto a struggling target - so it makes sense to make more attack rolls to do further damage to the target - you're already holding on (1/2 DCV) now you have to affect them (Attack Roll).

 

Grab should not give you Continuous to your STR for free.

[pinecone]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

I've always considered attacks after the first squeeze to need an attack roll with all the pens and bennies....even if you grab the throat the target is squirming around, you may "maintain" your grab...but it might be on an ankle or a wrist...I've always imagined a "grab" or "hold" as more or less a wrasslin match...

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

Looking at the Combat Handbook, the immediate Casual STR roll is a standard rule (HSCH 62).

 

And (HSCH 63). If the attack roll for a Squeeze fails, the grab is maintained but the damage is not done. If the attack roll for a Throw fails, the grab is broken, and the target is not thrown.

 

So, if you grab someone around the Neck you can squeeze for free in the first phase, doing double damage. After that you can make attack rolls (at -8), but if you fail the target is still grabbed.

 

The rule is actually very clear.

 

Grab & Block/Control/Redirect in subsequent phases with failed attack rolls still maintain the grab

 

Grab & Shove does not on a failed roll.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

Remember, unless you sweep multiple limbs the target usually has a limb to attack with. If you grab someones arms, they can still attack with their legs. However, they will be at a penalty for being grabbed and are forced to take a leg shot at -4, target the leg at -6, or target the foot at -8.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

I've always considered attacks after the first squeeze to need an attack roll with all the pens and bennies....even if you grab the throat the target is squirming around' date=' you may "maintain" your grab...but it might be on an ankle or a wrist...I've always imagined a "grab" or "hold" as more or less a wrasslin match...[/quote']

Yeah - that's what I was trying to say.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

Interestingly enough the words:

 

....(it doesn't automatically succeed, requires an Attack Roll and so forth)...

 

were added in 5ER - I didn't see them in FRED. I wish they'd put these 'little changes' in bold or something...

 

This leaves me confused. If I grab someone's arm it is easier to hang on than if I grab their neck? Counterintuitive, to say the least...

 

We were talking (on another thread) about garotting, and a garotting is basically a neck grab from behind. You don't need to use a garotte - you can lock an arm round the throat from that position, that'll do just fine. If you take someone to the ground it can be extremely difficult for them to dislodge or attack you and almost impossible for them to stop you applying pressure to your throat.

 

The rules don't seem to model dramatic or acual reality very well in this respect.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

I agree but it isn't any easier or harder to hang on. Once you grab, you have hold of your target regardless of whether subsequent attack rolls succeed. The attack roll is only to apply damage.

 

I also disagree that a garrot is a neck grab from behind. There are techniques you can use to subvert a choke hold or a throat crush but once the garrot cord is around your neck it is continuous damage (more or less), and the mechanics for that should be different.

 

I've been in throat locks before and it is possible to escape them. I also never felt garroted (of course I've never had a garrot around my neck so I suppose I can't really compare).

 

I think the grab rules actually model dramatic reality just fine. If you grab someone you have a hold of them until they break free or you throw them, or you let go. Period. Whether you can cause damage, use them as a shield, attack using their weapon, whatever will vary from phase to phase depending on whether you are skilled enough (attack roll) to leverage your STR (contest of STR) appropriately. Regardless of your skill however, your opponent has to actively break free (unless of course he succeeded on his casual STR in the first phase).

[Just Joe]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

My group and I have generally made the same mistake that you have: allowing continuous squeeze damage without a new attack roll. In most respects, I think the official rules make more sense than our mistake. However, your point about grabbing someone by the throat is a good one (grabbing a weapon or the hand that holds it is another example). Now, if I have this right (without looking at 5ER), it's not harder to maintain a hold on a neck than an arm, but it's harder to continue to damage it. How about this for a house rule? When trying to squeeze a location already grabbed, location modifiers do not apply. You could also (or instead) give an OCV bonus to the attacker only to do squeezing damage to the same location. Furthermore, if you want to get fancier, you could say that an otherwise unsuccessful breakout attempt has a chance of shifting a hold from a specific location to a general grab.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

I could see making an argument for halving the hit location penalties once the hold is established. On the other hand, properly applying a hold to a specific location is challenging. A bear hug is simple, but leveraging the neck to actually cause harm (and gain the hit location bonus).

 

Alternatively, you could say that as long as you suceed on the hit location roll (without a hit location modifier) you still get to apply damage, but without the hit location multiplier. So, if you successfully grab someone's neck (at -8), your subsequent attacks will cause normal damage if you make the roll, and cause x2 BODY x5 STUN if you make the roll by 8.

 

Now, here's the monkey in the wrench. Remember that the head is just a limb and can be grabbed at no OCV penalty. However, there is no bonus damage for doing so, you just control the victim's head.

 

HSCH 67 talks about hit locations. Targeting location 5 (at normal penalties) gets you the bonus damage and blocks breathing. Locs 3-4 just do extra damage. As a house rule you might say that even if you fail at a subsequent attack roll on loc 5, you still prevent breathing.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

Interestingly enough the words:

 

....(it doesn't automatically succeed, requires an Attack Roll and so forth)...

 

were added in 5ER - I didn't see them in FRED. I wish they'd put these 'little changes' in bold or something...

 

This leaves me confused. If I grab someone's arm it is easier to hang on than if I grab their neck? Counterintuitive, to say the least...

 

We were talking (on another thread) about garotting, and a garotting is basically a neck grab from behind. You don't need to use a garotte - you can lock an arm round the throat from that position, that'll do just fine. If you take someone to the ground it can be extremely difficult for them to dislodge or attack you and almost impossible for them to stop you applying pressure to your throat.

 

The rules don't seem to model dramatic or acual reality very well in this respect.

Now aren't you the one adding advantages to SFX for nothing?

 

Those are merely Attacks with Continuous and Must Follow Grab on them.

 

Model what you want, use what you model.

[Vanguard]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

We usually play a Heroic level game so if one of our characters grabs a target by the neck and then squeezes, they usually wind up dead with no other roll needed.

 

However, I don't think we were aware of ,or if we use, the "If you must make and Additional Attack roll ever phase" rule. I game tomorrow so can ask my group but I happen to agree with Sean in that, if I got you in a head lock and am crushing the life out of you, I don't need to reroll to hit your neck again. I did that last Phase with a -8 to OCV. Making me roll again almost assures that I miss. As it stands, I'm already at 1/2 DCV for your buddies that want to shot/hit/target me so if I didnt' dust you in the one Phase I got to try it, I doubt I'll get the chance if you've got friends.

 

As for adding or subtracting SFX for free . . Hero does it all the time. It even suggest you get a few added bene's depending on circumstances and SFX's being used (IE: Increased effects for Sonics underwater, etc).

 

Anyway, if it doesn't make sense to you or you dont' like it. Change the way it works in your game. Talk it over with your players and bounce around the potential (and very deadly) repercussions it could have and then go from there.

 

All in all, it's your game and you can change/adjust what you want/need to ensure you have fun.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

We usually play a Heroic level game so if one of our characters grabs a target by the neck and then squeezes, they usually wind up dead with no other roll needed.

 

However, I don't think we were aware of ,or if we use, the "If you must make and Additional Attack roll ever phase" rule. I game tomorrow so can ask my group but I happen to agree with Sean in that, if I got you in a head lock and am crushing the life out of you, I don't need to reroll to hit your neck again. I did that last Phase with a -8 to OCV. Making me roll again almost assures that I miss. As it stands, I'm already at 1/2 DCV for your buddies that want to shot/hit/target me so if I didnt' dust you in the one Phase I got to try it, I doubt I'll get the chance if you've got friends.

 

Looking at the source material, it seems to me we see a lot of prolonged battles where one character has another by the throat. This seems to implyu that, if the goal is to replicate these genres, it should not be as smple as getting a chokehold to virtually guarantee "lights out" to anyone beyond Mook status.

[BNakagawa]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

I would not use the breakout of a grab grants you an automatic phase/half phase.

 

Example - BrickDude is standing in front of a Viper nest leader. A bunch of agents jump on BD and grab him.

 

BD casually shrugs off viper agent 1, then punches nest leader. BD casually shrugs off viper agent 2, then punches nest leader, lather rinse repeat.

[ghost-angel]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

I would not use the breakout of a grab grants you an automatic phase/half phase.

 

Example - BrickDude is standing in front of a Viper nest leader. A bunch of agents jump on BD and grab him.

 

BD casually shrugs off viper agent 1, then punches nest leader. BD casually shrugs off viper agent 2, then punches nest leader, lather rinse repeat.

I don't think anyone's arguing that point - you are right there.

 

The only "free" attempt you get is at the time of the initial Grab, after that the character must use their attack action in a STR v STR roll to break the hold.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

I agree - getting a free hit every phase is very unbalancing. At a minimum you should have them make a basic attack roll (don't forget, your target is 1/2 dcv) and if they succeed then they can still crank the neck. I think a roll with the penalty is balanced however - it's still easier than the initial grab due to 1/2 dcv and, if loc 5, you still cut off breathing (which means no recoveries) even if you fail the attack roll.

 

One of my fav. maneuvers is the one hand grab - if you have a 15-20 str against a normal str target you can probably hold him at 1/2 dcv, he's -3 ocv to attack you, and you can then just beat him senseless.

 

Additionally, grapplers could buy PSLs to offset hit location pens, only while grabbing (-1/2) (that's about 1 pt per -1 offset with grab). That way you can have an expert grappler who can apply those holds easily but most untrained characters could not.

 

You can certainly make grab continuous damage, but that is a fairly significant change - were I playing in you game it would be my maneuver of choice.

[Sean Waters]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

Looking at the source material' date=' it seems to me we see a lot of prolonged battles where one character has another by the throat. This seems to implyu that, if the goal is to replicate these genres, it should not be as smple as getting a chokehold to virtually guarantee "lights out" to anyone beyond Mook status.[/quote']

 

A choke hold grabs the neck for sfx purposed only, but does not get the damage bonus, or a hit penalty.

 

A specifically targetted neck grab should egt the bonus IMO - it is unlikely that protagonist level opponents will try for a targetted neck grab as it is so difficult to hit, so that would probably be reserved for mooks anyway. Many sources have Heroes and Villains able to struggle for some time with a neck grip on, but mooks go down quickly. Using both variants is an even better model for the genre, perhaps?

[Sean Waters]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

The thing I don't get is why it should be harder to target damage the neck one you have hold of it than, say, an arm.

 

Moreover, once you have agrip on it really is more a matter of strength than dexterity whether you can apply damage.

 

I thought the rules for grab before 5ER worked well and I have no problems with them.

 

I keep on doing this: reading the book and realising it is not really Hero that I've been enjoying....

[Sean Waters]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

OK, practical example:

 

Bull (STR 20, DEX 10) sneaks up on a sleeping Mouse (STR 10, DEX 20) and grabs him by the neck (Base OCV 0, -4 for neck with surprise, and possible surprise bous OCV) - still not a dead cert, but he manages.

 

He squeezes and damages Mouse but does not KO him.

 

Next round he needs to roll to hit. OCV 3, DCV (halved) 4, and hit location penalties. Even if you halve the hit loaction penaltioes Bull only manages to damage Mouse on a roll of 6 or less, i.e. on less than 1 in 10 attempts? If you do it properly, Bull can only damage Mouse 1 in 216 attempts.

 

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what that models. Perhaps someone not thinking it through?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

Moreover, once you have agrip on it really is more a matter of strength than dexterity whether you can apply damage.

If that were true the best grapplers would be the strongest, which isn't true.

 

In 5th it was hinted at (the attack roll) as it stated subsequent squeezes were considered attack actions, which is defined as an action requiring an attack roll.

 

I agree that once you have someone in a head lock, or an arm bar, it is easier to maintain it than it is to perform it initially. Some may feel that the target at 1/2 DCV is enough of an advantage. When a target is entangled, hit locations are halved. I could see a logical argument for that advantage to extend to the grabber, and the grabber only, because relative to the grabber the target's hit location is "entangled". Bear hugging someone is still easier than applying a head lock correctly, so I think there is some subtle difference, and I don't like automatic damage (my players would hang me out to dry as I grab them enough already).

 

This would make a DCV 6 target with -8 for the neck a net of 14 DCV on the initial grab. After that, the target has a 7 DCV against "exploring the hurt locker". That seems fair to me.

[Gary]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

This is all a game balance issue. Yeah it's logical that once you grab the neck, you can do damage every phase. However, it's not game balanced.

 

Here's another example of how game balance trumps reality. When 2 boxers fight, they often specifically target the other boxer's head. In game terms, they would never hit with a -8 OCV penalty, but in reality, they hit quite often where they target.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

What that models is just how dextrous Mouse is. A 20 DEX is human peak agility. I have escaped head locks before, I'm sure Mouse could being that his DEX is way higher than mine.

 

Bull shouldn't get a "suprise OCV bonus" that bonus is for mixing things up in combat (foot stomp, blade slap, etc.) not to stack on top of the helpless DCV and hit location adjustment.

 

My guess is that Mouse is out in the first phase. x2 STUN for the neck and x2 STUN for surprise against 4d6 normal - that's going to average 56 STUN. Certainly Mouse is Stunned, if not KO, which means the next phase he is at 1/2 DCV and x2 STUN anyway.

 

How about this: Bull sneaks up on a guard (DEX 14, STR 13) and grabs his neck (DCV 5/2, -4 for hit location). Bull is going to have a hard time getting that grab in the first place 11 + 3 - 7 = 7 or less. With a 10 DEX Bull should just grab and squeeze. I think this is accurate. Bull is an unskilled average joe with a lot of muscle. He can grab people by the neck, and he can even squeeze them, but he can't do so with the same skill as a wrestler applying a head lock or a SEAL applying a neck snap (which is basically what you are talking about).

 

Grab isn't supposed to be any more effective than any other attack with the exception of adding the grab itself. Adding continuous damage makes it over the top.

 

I think you are also confusing a basic grab maneuver with any other number of techniques. There is specifically a 4 point choke hold that a martial artist would have that would allow them to grab the neck and maintain it without significant penalty. Even they have to make an attack roll every phase - why should untrained grapplers avoid that limitation as well as gain continuous damage?

[Legendsmiths]

Re: How does this grab you?

 

A boxer's punch (or any trained punch for that matter) is "High Shot" for free (2d6+1), which is a 1 in 6 chance of hitting the head. Additionally, they can do a "Head Shot" at only -4 to make that a 1 in 3 chance. Factoring in skill and possibly PSLs (which I suggest enforcing a -1/2 limitation to never reduce penalty below half) make this easily attainable.