Multipowers and Active Point Limits

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

Do you have a method to extend these starting limits into the realm of how and when players can spend experience to increase the active points of their powers? Or is that a hard cap as well?

My rule for Superheroic games was 1 AP per 5 XP.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

However' date=' that's NOT what people were assuming in this thread.[/quote']

 

Quick poll:

 

What are people assuming in this thread?

 

My assumption was that people weren't assuming anything.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

So take a Ego Blast or a Drain. You're ducking the issue instead of addressing my point.

 

That's a rather bold statement, Gary.

 

You haven't given much reasons for why you believe you are right other than pretending it's blatantly obvious despite the fact that you seem to be the only one who understands your point of view on this.

 

So far, the best you can come up with is that getting hit twice does more damage than getting his once, which is extremely weak and not necessarily true. The only thing you've said to back this up is to point out NNDs, which is an extreme case (and has a Stop Sign).

 

I've gone so far as to say that some powers allow you to hit a target up to 5 times and you have no problem with it, because of final costs, but you have a problem with someone getting hit twice, again because of the final costs, even though you'd allow other powers with the same final cost. It's like you have a grudge againt attack powers in general or something. Does your Multipower rule only apply to slots with attack powers in them, or did you come up with it because of the classic attack multipower found everywhere in hero?

 

Anyway, I've apparen't missed out on a lot in the past few days, so I'll try to catch up...

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

But they do violate a 30 AP cap.

 

2 attacks do double the average damage of 1 attack.

 

Okay, let's spell this out so everything is ultra super transparently clear.

 

Gary, you say that two 12d6 EBs are better than one 12d6 EB. I don't think anyone is saying it isn't.

 

But you are also saying that two 12d6 EBs is equivilant to one 24d6 EB, which is where everyone disagrees. It quite obviously isn't even remotely equivilant. The actual worth is much, much less. Even if you were to apply Reduce Penetration to the 24d6 EB, it would still be worth more than two 12d6 EBs. Surely you agree with this.

 

One question I would ask you then, is what is two 12d6 EBs worth, in active point, if it's not 120 points and is obviously, indispurably less?

 

Another tidbit:

 

You seem concerned with people doing more than the expected damage based on the amount done by an attack of the active point cap for any given campaign. You argue that buying two EBs at the max violates that max. What about buying CSLs for an attack at the max? Would that violate it as well? Does the cost of the CSL add to the active cost of the attacks it's bought for? What if the CSLs are bought for more than one attack? Buying CSLs is an easy way to make sure you can fire such an attack twice, and hell, just a few can mean the difference between missing a lot and hitting twice as often (and thus doing twice the expected damage). I'm really confused as to where you draw the line concerning active point maximums and what all counts toward it and why.

[Super Squirrel]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

Quick poll:

 

What are people assuming in this thread?

 

My assumption was that people weren't assuming anything.

I'm assuming everyone but myself has read the entire thread which I have not and am therefore, not sure what I should be assuming.

[Gary]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

Okay, let's spell this out so everything is ultra super transparently clear.

 

Gary, you say that two 12d6 EBs are better than one 12d6 EB. I don't think anyone is saying it isn't.

 

But you are also saying that two 12d6 EBs is equivilant to one 24d6 EB, which is where everyone disagrees. It quite obviously isn't even remotely equivilant. The actual worth is much, much less. Even if you were to apply Reduce Penetration to the 24d6 EB, it would still be worth more than two 12d6 EBs. Surely you agree with this.

 

 

No, I said that 2 attacks do twice the expected damage of 1 attack of the same level. Please don't read more than what I'm actually saying.

 

 

One question I would ask you then, is what is two 12d6 EBs worth, in active point, if it's not 120 points and is obviously, indispurably less?

 

 

If you want 2 EBs, then purchase autofire. You can back into what 2 EBs are worth using the autofire rules.

 

Apparently, you think that the 2nd EB is worth exactly 0 since you would allow a character with 2 12d6 EBs in a 60 AP world.

 

 

Another tidbit:

 

You seem concerned with people doing more than the expected damage based on the amount done by an attack of the active point cap for any given campaign. You argue that buying two EBs at the max violates that max. What about buying CSLs for an attack at the max? Would that violate it as well? Does the cost of the CSL add to the active cost of the attacks it's bought for? What if the CSLs are bought for more than one attack? Buying CSLs is an easy way to make sure you can fire such an attack twice, and hell, just a few can mean the difference between missing a lot and hitting twice as often (and thus doing twice the expected damage). I'm really confused as to where you draw the line concerning active point maximums and what all counts toward it and why.

 

 

CSLs and CVs usually have their own limits. It takes an awful lot of CSLs to add significant damage, and that would trigger a warning right there.

[Gary]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

That's a rather bold statement, Gary.

 

You haven't given much reasons for why you believe you are right other than pretending it's blatantly obvious despite the fact that you seem to be the only one who understands your point of view on this.

 

So far, the best you can come up with is that getting hit twice does more damage than getting his once, which is extremely weak and not necessarily true. The only thing you've said to back this up is to point out NNDs, which is an extreme case (and has a Stop Sign).

 

I've gone so far as to say that some powers allow you to hit a target up to 5 times and you have no problem with it, because of final costs, but you have a problem with someone getting hit twice, again because of the final costs, even though you'd allow other powers with the same final cost. It's like you have a grudge againt attack powers in general or something. Does your Multipower rule only apply to slots with attack powers in them, or did you come up with it because of the classic attack multipower found everywhere in hero?

 

Anyway, I've apparen't missed out on a lot in the past few days, so I'll try to catch up...

 

 

NNDs, Ego Blasts, Drains, etc. It makes me wonder that you would allow 2 12d6 EBs in a campaign, but you apparently have trouble with 2 6d6 NNDs or 2 6d6 Ego Blasts.

[Gary]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

Quick poll:

 

What are people assuming in this thread?

 

My assumption was that people weren't assuming anything.

 

 

Considering that this entire thread's premise was a proposed house rule for people who may find MPs overly cheap or effective (this was explicitly spelled out in post 1), it seems obvious to me what the assumptions are.

 

Did you read post 1 at all???

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

No' date=' I said that 2 attacks do twice the expected damage of 1 attack of the same level. Please don't read more than what I'm actually saying.[/quote']

Then why were you comparing two 12d6 EBs to one 24d6 EB?

 

 

 

 

 

If you want 2 EBs, then purchase autofire. You can back into what 2 EBs are worth using the autofire rules.

 

Apparently, you think that the 2nd EB is worth exactly 0 since you would allow a character with 2 12d6 EBs in a 60 AP world.

No, I'm saying that in a campaign with a 60 AP cap, any attack of 60 AP or less is valid, no matter it be used alone or with other attacks. All attacks are 60 AP or less.

 

I suppose you'll tell me it's okay in your 60 AP game to buy an EB 11d6 OAF and spend 5 points on a second one (doubling equipment). The total is 60 AP, and thus it would be okay to use them both in a Multiple Power Attack. Huge difference that 1d6 makes here it would seem. At least by the logic you've applied so far.

 

 

 

 

 

CSLs and CVs usually have their own limits. It takes an awful lot of CSLs to add significant damage, and that would trigger a warning right there.

Well, as you noted in another thread, a single +1 CSL can mean the difference between a 9% success rate in attacking. To me, that spells a +9% damage. Imagine what a +5 could do? And that's only 10 points.

 

What about SPD? Suppose character A has a SPD of 3 and wants his two EB 12d6s, and another character has a SPD of 6 and just wants one... I guess the first guy had better just buy more SPD if he wants to keep up in damage, even though he doesn't want or need it for anything else.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

NNDs' date=' Ego Blasts, Drains, etc. It makes me wonder that you would allow 2 12d6 EBs in a campaign, but you apparently have trouble with 2 6d6 NNDs or 2 6d6 Ego Blasts.[/quote']

 

NNDs and Ego Attacks are special cases, and have their own guidelines. The rules specifically discourage multiple attacks versus special defenses, regardless of point limits.

 

It's a rather week argument when you fall back on something that is more often discouraged or disallowed for reasons other than yours.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

Considering that this entire thread's premise was a proposed house rule for people who may find MPs overly cheap or effective (this was explicitly spelled out in post 1), it seems obvious to me what the assumptions are.

 

Did you read post 1 at all???

 

Naturally. I'm not gonna jump in here and disagree with you just because you're you.

 

As it is, all the first post does is tell everyone what your assumptions are. Do you think that everone agrees? Of the people I know around here who have made their opinions known about this issue, I've seen many more who don't think Multipowers are cheap. In fact, many have said so right in this thread. That's why I asked. It's obvious to me that your assumptions are incorrect or inaccurate.

 

 

At any rate, perhaps we should begin anew. We agree that AP limits are restrictive, and by their definition and purpose they should be. I'm saying your proposed idea to count MP slots toward that limit is even more restrictive, and stiffling so.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

I still would like an answer to the following question that managed to get buried in discussion:

 

It seems you believe that any given character should have only one attack at the games AP Limit (if there is one). What, exactly is so game breaking about a character with two attacks, both of which are at the AP Limit of a game?

 

Whether bought inside an MP, EC, VPP or Strait ... why are two attacks game breaking?

[Gary]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

Then why were you comparing two 12d6 EBs to one 24d6 EB?

 

I wasn't. Other people were.

 

 

 

 

No, I'm saying that in a campaign with a 60 AP cap, any attack of 60 AP or less is valid, no matter it be used alone or with other attacks. All attacks are 60 AP or less.

 

Therefore you would allow 2 NNDs or 2 Ego Blasts. Or 10 6d6 NNDs or 10 6d6 Ego Blasts for that matter. Gotcha. Doesn't sound like an AP cap at all.

 

 

I suppose you'll tell me it's okay in your 60 AP game to buy an EB 11d6 OAF and spend 5 points on a second one (doubling equipment). The total is 60 AP, and thus it would be okay to use them both in a Multiple Power Attack. Huge difference that 1d6 makes here it would seem. At least by the logic you've applied so far.

 

 

Now you're just being silly.

 

 

 

Well, as you noted in another thread, a single +1 CSL can mean the difference between a 9% success rate in attacking. To me, that spells a +9% damage. Imagine what a +5 could do? And that's only 10 points.

 

What about SPD? Suppose character A has a SPD of 3 and wants his two EB 12d6s, and another character has a SPD of 6 and just wants one... I guess the first guy had better just buy more SPD if he wants to keep up in damage, even though he doesn't want or need it for anything else.

 

 

Yeah in the other thread, you thought it was being a munchkin to purchase 1 CSL. It seems very strange to me that purchasing 1 CSL would be considered munchkin by you, but purchasing a second 6d6 Ego Blast is perfectly ok.

[Gary]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

NNDs and Ego Attacks are special cases, and have their own guidelines. The rules specifically discourage multiple attacks versus special defenses, regardless of point limits.

 

It's a rather week argument when you fall back on something that is more often discouraged or disallowed for reasons other than yours.

 

 

Where do the rules specifically discourage multiple nonstandard attacks, other than autofire? The answer is that they don't.

 

It appears that you can't answer this point, so you're ducking it.

[Gary]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

Naturally. I'm not gonna jump in here and disagree with you just because you're you.

 

As it is, all the first post does is tell everyone what your assumptions are. Do you think that everone agrees? Of the people I know around here who have made their opinions known about this issue, I've seen many more who don't think Multipowers are cheap. In fact, many have said so right in this thread. That's why I asked. It's obvious to me that your assumptions are incorrect or inaccurate.

 

If people don't think multipowers are too cheap, then they shouldn't use the rule. Plain and simple. I don't see what's hard to understand about this.

 

 

At any rate, perhaps we should begin anew. We agree that AP limits are restrictive, and by their definition and purpose they should be. I'm saying your proposed idea to count MP slots toward that limit is even more restrictive, and stiffling so.

 

 

Yes it is more restrictive than a standard AP cap. However, as I stated in the first thread, you can finetune it to a level that you're comfortable with. Such as counting 1/2 the cost of slots, or 1/3 the cost of slots, or whatever final level you're comfortable with.

[Gary]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

I still would like an answer to the following question that managed to get buried in discussion:

 

It seems you believe that any given character should have only one attack at the games AP Limit (if there is one). What, exactly is so game breaking about a character with two attacks, both of which are at the AP Limit of a game?

 

Whether bought inside an MP, EC, VPP or Strait ... why are two attacks game breaking?

 

 

Most Champions characters are built to survive 2-4 hits by an average opponent before dropping. By having 2 attacks at AP limit, it only takes 1-2 attacks to drop the average opponent. And there's no reason why people wouldn't purchase 3 or more simultaneous attacks that'll drop an opponent in 1 hit.

 

Now this may be a perfectly valid way to play the game, but a campaign where it takes only 1-2 hits to drop the average opponent will have a massively different feel to it. There would be such a premium in getting that first strike in. It would be lots of eggshells armed with hammers.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

Most Champions characters are built to survive 2-4 hits by an average opponent before dropping. By having 2 attacks at AP limit, it only takes 1-2 attacks to drop the average opponent. And there's no reason why people wouldn't purchase 3 or more simultaneous attacks that'll drop an opponent in 1 hit.

 

Now this may be a perfectly valid way to play the game, but a campaign where it takes only 1-2 hits to drop the average opponent will have a massively different feel to it. There would be such a premium in getting that first strike in. It would be lots of eggshells armed with hammers.

Hrmm... every character in our games has had more than one attack, often times up to three at the AP Cap .. each one was different enough that it made sense SFX Wise but the end result was each character had a selection of damaging attacks to choose from...

 

And in all my years of gaming I've never encountered what you're describing.

 

Especially since a Multiple Power Attack (and we made a rule up for it 4E when I wanted a dual pistol wielding character) requires a Full Phase Action, the Attacker can't move...

 

But hey, if you see that abuse in your games, by all means penalize people for wanting attack options.

[Gary]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

Hrmm... every character in our games has had more than one attack, often times up to three at the AP Cap .. each one was different enough that it made sense SFX Wise but the end result was each character had a selection of damaging attacks to choose from...

 

And in all my years of gaming I've never encountered what you're describing.

 

Especially since a Multiple Power Attack (and we made a rule up for it 4E when I wanted a dual pistol wielding character) requires a Full Phase Action, the Attacker can't move...

 

But hey, if you see that abuse in your games, by all means penalize people for wanting attack options.

 

 

Just how much stun does your average character have if up to 3 simultaneous attacks at the AP cap wouldn't drop a target in 1-2 hits?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

Just how much stun does your average character have if up to 3 simultaneous attacks at the AP cap wouldn't drop a target in 1-2 hits?

That's not the point. And if that's the focus of your Game (how many hits it takes to drop the average target) I think something was missed somewhere along the way to Roleplaying.

 

And I never said the attacks were simultaneous, sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Your system, and I'm getting the impression you aren't seeing this, actively penalizes concepts that have multiple methods of attack - regardless of whether they want them to work individually or together.

[Gary]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

That's not the point. And if that's the focus of your Game (how many hits it takes to drop the average target) I think something was missed somewhere along the way to Roleplaying.

 

And I never said the attacks were simultaneous, sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't. Your system, and I'm getting the impression you aren't seeing this, actively penalizes concepts that have multiple methods of attack - regardless of whether they want them to work individually or together.

 

I must have missed the memo somewhere that not wanting the the average character to drop in 1-2 hits violates the concept of "Roleplaying"

 

If the attacks are simultaneous, I don't see why opponents aren't dropping like flies. If they aren't simultaneous, then what the heck were we discussing?

 

I don't see how I'm penalizing anyone. I'm simply holding everyone to the same guidelines, that you're allowed 1 attack at the AP limit.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

Where do the rules specifically discourage multiple nonstandard attacks, other than autofire? The answer is that they don't.

 

It appears that you can't answer this point, so you're ducking it.

 

Okay, now I'm insulted. YOU have ducked so damn many questions on this thread it makes my head spin, and you DARE say something like this? You're unbelievable.

 

I usually enjoy our discussion because I find you to be a witty and intelligent conversationalist. What happened? No wait, I don't want you to answer that... I'm afraid you'll just dodge around that too.

 

This thread is no longer worth my time.

[Gary]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

Okay, now I'm insulted. YOU have ducked so damn many questions on this thread it makes my head spin, and you DARE say something like this? You're unbelievable.

 

I usually enjoy our discussion because I find you to be a witty and intelligent conversationalist. What happened? No wait, I don't want you to answer that... I'm afraid you'll just dodge around that too.

 

This thread is no longer worth my time.

 

 

Sorry you're insulted, but you took a position that 2 simultaneous attacks both at the AP limit of a campaign should be allowed in said campaign. I gave extensive reasons why I felt that shouldn't be the case.

 

Please don't take a difference of opinion as an insult.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

I must have missed the memo somewhere that not wanting the the average character to drop in 1-2 hits violates the concept of "Roleplaying"

 

If the attacks are simultaneous, I don't see why opponents aren't dropping like flies. If they aren't simultaneous, then what the heck were we discussing?

 

I don't see how I'm penalizing anyone. I'm simply holding everyone to the same guidelines, that you're allowed 1 attack at the AP limit.

We were discussing the point that your system would actively penalize characters who want more than one attack - simply because they have the option of dealing them twice is irrelevant.

 

But whatever.

[hancock.tom]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

Where do the rules specifically discourage multiple nonstandard attacks, other than autofire? The answer is that they don't.

 

It appears that you can't answer this point, so you're ducking it.

 

From page 171 of FRED (my revised should be here later this week so i'm still using fred) page 171 of FRED beginning of the fourth paragraph

 

"Characters normally shouldn't have more than one type of NND attack"

 

I think thats what people were referring to when they said the rules specifically discourage multiple NNDs.

 

This thread is like a car wreck on the highway: You don't want to look but you enjoy the carnage. I mean, there is beating a dead horse, then there is beating the horse, turning it into applesauce, and freezing it just so you can beat it again. Can't we just admit that everyone but Gary thinks Gary's idea is crazy, but Gary is still right? Can't we just admit that and move on?

[Gary]

Re: Multipowers and Active Point Limits

 

We were discussing the point that your system would actively penalize characters who want more than one attack - simply because they have the option of dealing them twice is irrelevant.

 

But whatever.

 

 

I've explained it numerous times. I don't want one single character to do twice the campaign limit in damage in a single phase. I don't see what's so hard to understand.