Johannes Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 The Sight Sense is a targetting sense, hearing is not. Can hearing be bought as targetting, can sight be made not targetting? Flash can be bought against a targetting Sense, or a nontargetting. How does Flash against hearing (nontargetting) work if the target bought hearing as targetting. Is Flash of any use if bought against nontargetting sight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Re: Senses Targetting and Nontargetting These will be "unofficial" answers, of course. If you want an official ruling from rules grand poobah Steve Long, you can post your questions on the Fifth Edition Rules Questions forums. The Sight Sense is a targetting sense, hearing is not. Can hearing be bought as targetting, can sight be made not targetting? You can certainly buy Targetting for the entire Hearing Sense Group, covering any Enhanced Senses defined as hearing based. See "Enhanced Senses" in the 5ER rulebook. Having nontargetting Sight would probably be defined as a Physical Limitation for the character, the amount it would be worth based on how often and to what degree you expected it to disadvantage the character. It would be less of a Limitation if the character had another Targetting Sense. Flash can be bought against a targetting Sense, or a nontargetting. How does Flash against hearing (nontargetting) work if the target bought hearing as targetting. Is Flash of any use if bought against nontargetting sight? The basis of the cost of Flash vs any Nontargetting Sense is based on it being Nontargetting for most people. It would still affect a person with a Targetting Sense based on hearing normally. Flash vs Sight would affect a hypothetical "Nontargetting Sight" normally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted January 17, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Re: Senses Targetting and Nontargetting So Flash vs. Nontargetting sense would not effekt targetting sense. Even if it is unusual for the sense to be targetting e.g. hearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Re: Senses Targetting and Nontargetting So Flash vs. Nontargetting sense would not effekt targetting sense. Even if it is unusual for the sense to be targetting e.g. hearing. No, Flash vs. a Nontargeting Sense Group would affect any targetting senses in that group normally. For example: If you have a Flash vs. the Hearing Group and use it on someone with Sonar (defined as a Targetting sense in the Hearing Group), their sonar will be knocked out by the Flash. As LL stated, the cost of Flash is based off of the default targeting nature of the Sense Group. By default, only the Sight Group is considered targeting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Re: Senses Targetting and Nontargetting I'd just like to throw this in the ring: owls have targetting hearing. In fiction, I've seen targetting hearing on Agent Sands from "Once Upon a Time in Mexico" and on the younger girl from the anime series "Noir". There is definitely precedent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted January 17, 2006 Report Share Posted January 17, 2006 Re: Senses Targetting and Nontargetting I'd just like to throw this in the ring: owls have targetting hearing. In fiction' date=' I've seen targetting hearing on Agent Sands from "Once Upon a Time in Mexico" and on the younger girl from the anime series "Noir". There is definitely precedent.[/quote'] Of course, no one's arguing that targeting hearing is unreasonable....but by default, the Hearing Group (and the Normal Hearing Sense) is non-targeting. Which means that you pay the lower cost for Flash (and similar Powers). A Flash vs. the Hearing Group will function just fine against an owl. Or Agent Strands...or the chick from "Noir" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victim Posted January 18, 2006 Report Share Posted January 18, 2006 Re: Senses Targetting and Nontargetting I'd just like to throw this in the ring: owls have targetting hearing. In fiction' date=' I've seen targetting hearing on Agent Sands from "Once Upon a Time in Mexico" and on the younger girl from the anime series "Noir". There is definitely precedent.[/quote'] You could also argue that some of those characters just accepted the CV penalties for shooting with a non targeting sense, but were skilled enough to hit anyway. I think Combat Sense can also help there. Of course, IIRC, targeting on hearing would be cheaper than a good level of combat sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: Senses Targetting and Nontargetting Interesting point. How would you distinguish, by watching them, between someone who is "just good enough" to hit something by using a non-targeting sense, and someone who has targeting hearing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: Senses Targetting and Nontargetting Interesting point. How would you distinguish' date=' by watching them, between someone who is "just good enough" to hit something by using a non-targeting sense, and someone who has targeting hearing?[/quote'] Why would you (other than as an academic exercise)? In relation to a Flash (or other Sense-affecting Powers), it doesn't matter whether or not their Hearing is targeting. I expect that good dramatic descriptions by the GM should reveal whether someone is stumbling around blindly (even if still able to "luck out" and make contact with their target) or if they can perceive their surroundings via a targeting sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: Senses Targetting and Nontargetting The Sight Sense is a targetting sense, hearing is not. Can hearing be bought as targetting, can sight be made not targetting? Flash can be bought against a targetting Sense, or a nontargetting. How does Flash against hearing (nontargetting) work if the target bought hearing as targetting. Is Flash of any use if bought against nontargetting sight? The default sense settings are a matter for the campaign builder - if, in a particular game, targetting hearing is common but sight hearing is not then, as a default, the only 'tagetting sense' for flash cost would be hearing. If both hearing and sight targetting are common you pay the higher price for both. There is nothing to stop you selling back the 'tagetting' part of your sight group and applying it to another group, such as hearing, if that is appropriate tot he character and campaign. What that means is that you can see but you can't use sight to target stuff: maybe you have slow sight - you need to focus for a few seconds before you can sees omething properly - making sight useless in combat. Flash against a particular sense will effect that sense 'fully', irrespective of whether it is targetting or not. The difference in proce is NOT a difference in function - it just reflects the relative utility of knocking out a sense which is COMMONLY used for targetting as against one that is only UNCOMMONLY used. Hope that helps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: Senses Targetting and Nontargetting The default sense settings are a matter for the campaign builder - if, in a particular game, targetting hearing is common but sight hearing is not then, as a default, the only 'tagetting sense' for flash cost would be hearing. If both hearing and sight targetting are common you pay the higher price for both. There is nothing to stop you selling back the 'tagetting' part of your sight group and applying it to another group, such as hearing, if that is appropriate tot he character and campaign. What that means is that you can see but you can't use sight to target stuff: maybe you have slow sight - you need to focus for a few seconds before you can sees omething properly - making sight useless in combat. Flash against a particular sense will effect that sense 'fully', irrespective of whether it is targetting or not. The difference in proce is NOT a difference in function - it just reflects the relative utility of knocking out a sense which is COMMONLY used for targetting as against one that is only UNCOMMONLY used. Hope that helps? Better than my rambling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: Senses Targetting and Nontargetting Better than my rambling Sorry about that: I'm sure normal service will resume shortly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: Senses Targetting and Nontargetting Interesting point. How would you distinguish' date=' by watching them, between someone who is "just good enough" to hit something by using a non-targeting sense, and someone who has targeting hearing?[/quote'] LOL. It's little things like this that cause people to write up comic book characters on way too many points. There really is no way to distinguish between really, really good and just looks really good but only lucky. The default seems to be to go with if it looks really good, then it is really good. A philosophy I tend to disagree with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted January 19, 2006 Report Share Posted January 19, 2006 Re: Senses Targetting and Nontargetting The Sight Sense is a targetting sense, hearing is not. Can hearing be bought as targetting, can sight be made not targetting? Flash can be bought against a targetting Sense, or a nontargetting. How does Flash against hearing (nontargetting) work if the target bought hearing as targetting. Is Flash of any use if bought against nontargetting sight? Senses and sense groups is one of Hero System's simple things that looks rather complicated. Normal Hearing, or the entire Hearing Sense Group, just like any sense or sense group, can be bought Targeting. Normal Sight and the entire Sight Group are Targeting by default, it's part of the group. Making it non-Targeting is a bit tricky. The "power" that is Sight isn't really a Power, but something that for the purpose of the game has a cost based on the Disadvantage of not having it. Technically, to make Sight nontargeting, you'd have to take a Disadvantage that reflects it. On the other hand, I can't imagine how the Sight Group could be anything other than Targeting. If you see something, you know exactly where it is. There really isn't any way around that in my opinion. The rules can dictate reality though, so if you'd like a nontargeting sight, it can be done. As for the application Flash (as well as other Sense Affecting Powers), what senses are considered Targeting or not depend upon the campaign and the GMs preferences. The default for all campaigns is that any Sense Group that is always Targeting (normally only the Sight Group) is considered a Targeting Group, and any specific senses that are always Targeting (Radar, Sonar, Spatial Awareness) are Targeting Senses. Should a character buy Targeting for other senses, Sense Affecting Powers are still bought as if the sense were nontargeting because the majority of targets (well, every target but that one who bought it differently) still has it as a nontargeting sense. Another way of looking at it is this: Just because one (or even two) characters buys Targeting for the Hearing Group, doesn't mean that a Flash Hearing Group no longer works against them. They didn't buy immunity, just the ability to target with their hearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.