FH weapon damage

[atlascott]

So I had the guys over to make FH characters.

 

I have some house rules. First, for the Primaries, 11-15 values are at the stated cost; 16-20 are at 2x the cost; 21-25 are 3x the cost, and 26-30 are 4x the stated cost, etc.

 

Second, package deals which launch scores beyond 15 DO NOT suffer from the double, triple, etc, costs. Purchased atttributes outside a PD do. (Incentive to use PD's).

 

Third, players can pay the amount of character points necessary to buy ONE attribute to 15, and they then get the right to roll a d10, and take the result of the roll, THEN add the PD's, and THEN buy whatever else they want. So, you can either roll a high number are really save some points, but you are also risking points, cuz you might roll a 2, having paid 5 pts for a 15 STR but ending up with a 12 (but you had a chance for a 20 STR for 5 pts, when it otherwise would have cost you much more).

 

So 2 of my players (in a 125 pt game) have 25 STR, and they were bummed about the 'no more than double base damage of a weapon" rule especially in light of some of their perks and skills which add a d6 of damage under certain circumstances.

 

A 2d6K weapon can not be made to do more than 4d6K damage, period, no matter how you try to do it. The STR min is low enough on the weapons that these guys were using that they were maxing out the damage before they used any of the nifty extra special moves. Now they want to but 3 1/2 d6K swords and axes.

 

I can see their point. Why CANT you just buy a bigger axe, with a 20 STR minimum, which does more damage? Even if you have to have it custom made, doesnt it make sense? What's the point of having tremendous strength if you have maxed out your longsword? They are closing in on doing more damage classes with their bare handws than with a killing attack weapon.

 

My concern is game balance. 6 or 7 dice of killing damage is a heck of alot of damage. I know, I can just say 'no' because it unbalances the game. But lets take a step back, here. They did not reall munchkin their way into 25 str characters. Don't ogres have 30 str? Do Ogres use teeny tiny (for them) swords and axes? Do giants? SHouldnt the players get to use their giant weapons if they want?

 

Now, I already have some things in mind. First, if they buy weapons that max their minimum STR, the a weak STR drain makes them useless. ALso, such large weapons probably have at leasy a -3 OCV to hit in smaller spaces, like dungeons or anywhere indoors. There are definitely consequences for this approach.

 

So what do you think? Bar them? Allow it? Is there something Im missing?

 

Input greatly appreciated.

[ghost-angel]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

I would have stuck to the standard method of purchasing stats myself, you probably wouldn't have seen 25STR, with or without Package Deals, since it would cost 20pts just to get there.

 

I personally think that was your first, and only, mistake here.

 

Beyond that - what the heck are you fighting that they need 6-7 dice of Killing for?!?!

[atlascott]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

Well, one guy took advantage of the random roll and got burned--he ended up paying for 15 STR and got a 12. But he bought his STR up to crazy levels anyway. I though the early and stiff cost mutiples would dissuade him from it, but evidently not. Since STR is 1 pt standard, he started with a 12. He had a racial STR Package Deal bonus, and a Profession bonus, so he got up to 18, and then bought the 7 extra points, for 14 points.

 

I dont know WHAT im going to have to send his way to make 6 ot 7 Killing dice necesary...

[ghost-angel]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

5pts to get to 12 (with a die roll) + 6 pts in Package Deals + 14 pts for that last 7STR = 25pts for a high STR?

 

wow. He really wanted a high STR. Teach him a lesson - deny the big KA weapons. There are much more effective things to do with points that STR.

 

You sound like you've got a munchkin problem.

[ghost-angel]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

I just noticed something - these guys maxed out damage on 2D6 Killing without maneuvers?

 

assuming STR Min of 10. 2D6Killing + 15STR (1D6Killing) = 3D6. So they have 6 5pt Skill Levels (At least) for HTH Damage? that's another 30 points.

 

These guys are just combat munchkin/monsters aren't they?

[Erkenfresh]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

Doesn't deadly blow add to the base weapon damage and thus increase the doubled amount?

 

It does sound like you've got a problem with some munchkinism though. 25 STR could lift 800 kg or almost a ton. Are these normal sized people or giants?

[radix]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

I'm also pretty horrified at the thought of random rolls for character creation. Man, there's a reason HERO exists separately from D20 ;-) There are probably better ways to reach your goal that introducing randomness, although I'm not sure what your goal is... It sounds at first glance that you want to go for a nice low-powered campaign (what with the extreme restrictions on buying up characteristics), but then you go on to describe characters with 25 STR...

 

Anyway, as far as weapons go, I think you mentioned some good ideas for modeling Large Weapons, and it seems logical to do a high-min-str plus some OCV/DCV penalties in certain situations... But surely there's some HERO system material about this? Ultimate Weapon? (this is me being too lazy to look things up in any of my books)

[atlascott]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

Hey, they are fighters. They want legendary strength. Don't all fighters?

 

And what is munchkinism, anyway? The rules are the rules, and if a guy wants to play a tough character, why should he not be able to use his knowledge of the rules and his intelligence to build a tough mofo. After all, I DID mod the rules to make getting a 25 STR a heck of a lot more expensive than per stock 'Normal Char Maxima'--and they paid the price to get what they wanted. Their character design is not what I'd call deliberately absuvie in the sense that they are trying to break the game or game world--they are doing what smart players do--designing effective characters witht he rules and points allowed.

 

Maybe I should have imposed a hard 20 pt cap for the primaries characteristics...

 

RE: random rolls--it can save them points, or lose them points, as it did to one character who lost 3 CP's in the process. He STILL bought STR to 25. These are frmer D&D guys, so I thought the chance for a random roll might be fun for them.

 

If I deny them bigger weapons, they will drop the deadly blow and other combat maneuvers and just buy more OCV CSL's. And what would be the point of me requiring them to keep maneuvers that did them no good?

 

And what better use of pts are there? You must admit, the points they spent instantly put them in the elite strength and damage-causing class for humanoids in the game world. If Storm Giants can have giant swords, why cant these guys? But I do like the negative OCV and DCV consequences--no matter HOW strong you are, weidling a 12 foot long sword or axe is difficult and requires space.

 

I dont really see any way around this but to impose CAPS on characteristics, though i thought my price increases beyond 15 would have done the trick.

 

I dont know WHAT Im going to do. Maybe points over 10 should be 10x the stated cost or something...

[ghost-angel]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

Considering just the one guy you mentioned spent 55 Points to get that 4D6 Damage, that's almost 50% of his character.

 

So he's probably sacraficing some SPD, other stats, non-combat skills possibly as well. They have low DEX Scores I'm guessing, so medeocre CVs probably. Unless they're basically walking STR/DEX/CSLs Fighters. Kinda boring.

 

If you want those big weapons give them STR Min of 18-23 or so. They can take advantage of their STR to actually use it, but aren't getting much more than a 1DC Advantage beyond that... So, 3D6+1 Great Sword with 20Str Min, at 25 STR makes it a 3 1/2D6 Attack + CSLs + Maneuvers. Probably gets them up around the 5D6-5.5D6 range. That's pretty high...

 

I'd be interesting in seeing the character builds personally.

[HeroGM]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

Does this really need to be two different threads?

[atlascott]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

No, it doesnt. I posted it in FH forum AFTER posting it here, per Steve Long's suggestion. But Ill take insight from any quarter...

[ghost-angel]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

Does this really need to be two different threads?

Requiered by law I'm afraid.

[atlascott]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

Considering just the one guy you mentioned spent 55 Points to get that 4D6 Damage, that's almost 50% of his character.

 

So he's probably sacraficing some SPD, other stats, non-combat skills possibly as well. They have low DEX Scores I'm guessing, so medeocre CVs probably. Unless they're basically walking STR/DEX/CSLs Fighters. Kinda boring.

 

If you want those big weapons give them STR Min of 18-23 or so. They can take advantage of their STR to actually use it, but aren't getting much more than a 1DC Advantage beyond that... So, 3D6+1 Great Sword with 20Str Min, at 25 STR makes it a 3 1/2D6 Attack + CSLs + Maneuvers. Probably gets them up around the 5D6-5.5D6 range. That's pretty high...

 

I'd be interesting in seeing the character builds personally.

 

Im actually going with MUCH higher STR mins for the bigger weapons, as well as operating space requirements and ocv/DCV penalties. But you are RIGHT on target. Their DEXes are pretty terrible and no one is buying much in the way of skills that do not find their way in package deals. Of course, this means that the local shop keeper is going to gouge them on prices, their ability to get along with anyone will be terrible, they are susceptible to PRE attacks, are unimpressive themselves, and are saddled with low OCV's and DCV's . I didnt do anything much rules wise to encourage non combat skills, which was a mistake, other than to print out the skills lists and suggest a couple times that they consider some of the skills.

 

In addition to Captain of Death I and II, we have a nice diversely-skilled Rogue, and a Wizard who is beggin for more points...

[atlascott]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

Requiered by law I'm afraid.

 

 

Its really this low self estemm problem I have--I just MUST be the center of all attention... ;>)

[keithcurtis]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

And what is munchkinism' date=' anyway? The rules are the rules, and if a guy wants to play a tough character, why should he not be able to use his knowledge of the rules and his intelligence to build a tough mofo. [/quote']

Although this is technically true, every GM must exersize some amount of control over character creation. After all, flight and desolidifcation are in the rules, too. I don't see many GMs just granting powers without control.

Munchkin or not, they seem to be approaching your campaign with a very gamist philosophy (building characters from the mechanic, rather than the concept). You seem to have tried to cut them off at the pass, so to speak, by instituting your cost structure.

My advice? If they're having fun and your having fun, let them do it. Throw nasty dragons and demons their way. They probably won't survive, but you can engineer encounters to give them a chance. Of course, if you're not having fun, maybe you need to discuss the problems with them before they make characters.

 

Keith "Advice is cheap" Curtis

[ghost-angel]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

Im actually going with MUCH higher STR mins for the bigger weapons, as well as operating space requirements and ocv/DCV penalties. But you are RIGHT on target. Their DEXes are pretty terrible and no one is buying much in the way of skills that do not find their way in package deals. Of course, this means that the local shop keeper is going to gouge them on prices, their ability to get along with anyone will be terrible, they are susceptible to PRE attacks, are unimpressive themselves, and are saddled with low OCV's and DCV's . I didnt do anything much rules wise to encourage non combat skills, which was a mistake, other than to print out the skills lists and suggest a couple times that they consider some of the skills.

 

In addition to Captain of Death I and II, we have a nice diversely-skilled Rogue, and a Wizard who is beggin for more points...

I have a feeling they will quickly learn that the Way To Fight in Hero is a high DEX and not high STR like DnD and eventually will adjust accordingly.

 

Doing tons of damage doesn't help if you can't hit squat.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

Archers, my friend. Introduce them to the pain that happens when you bring a Big Frickin' Sword to a Bow fight.

 

If that isn't enough, or if you are an evil, sadistic GM, design an adventure where their strength doesn't help them. Perhaps the local noble want to reward them for their deeds of valor and of course he just assumes they know proper social etiquette. Add in some scheming from all the rival nobility that are also at the party and they should realize that they might want to think about spending points in something other than combat-related skills.

 

And if they turn out to only be interested in combat, combat, combat, then they will eventually learn the truth of the old saying that those of live by the Big Frickin' Sword will die by the Big Frickin' Sword.

[atlascott]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

All excellent advice. Thanks!

[ghost-angel]

Re: FH weapon damage

 

It has occured to me they're falling into a loop.

 

See they're DnD players - and DnD has a vastly different way of dealing with combat. First off with the HitPoint System it's almost vital that you do more damage than anyone else. Second the ability to hit is built into the System differently (I'm not talking about AC) - via the classes. The higher your level the better you hit (and the more often). So they failed to take into account their CV simply due to never having to need to before. Can't hit well? Get a magic sword and gain a level. So a High STR and the "need" to do lots of damage overrides most other combat abilities for them simply because they aren't used to Hero Combat (being new this is fine).

 

So, with that in mind I built a simple 125pt Mercenary with a 12STR (just enough to wield a Long/Broad Sword) but skills in many other places to make up for it.

Defensive Maneuver - can't be flanked.

CSLs - 2 Variable, 1 purely DCV.

Martial Maneuvers - plenty of them to fight defensively and offensively

Some other non-combat skills and stats.

 

a basic sword in his hands should do enough solid damage to take down most warriors, his decent CVs will allow him to both dodge and hit most Heroic targets: at 16 DEX he has an edge but isn't an uberdexmonkey, 3SPD puts him above average for a normal - probably just right for a PC.

 

While I haven't seen the Captain Of Death Twins sheets my guess is even against both of them he might give 'em a run for their money.

 

Try a mock combat and tell us what happened?

 

Then explain how DEX and CV and many other factors mean as much, if not more, than pure damage. And see if you can bring them back under control a bit that way. At least as far as trying to level 6D6 Killing in a Heroic Campaign goes.

 

[b]Veteran Mercenary - [/b]

[b][u]VAL[/u]   [u]CHA[/u]   [u]Cost[/u]   [u]Total[/u]   [u]Roll[/u]      [u]Notes[/u][/b]
12    STR     2   12      11-       HTH Damage 2d6  END [2]
16    DEX     18   16      12-       OCV 5 DCV 5
12    CON     4   12      11-
10    BODY    0   10      11-
11    INT     1   11      11-       PER Roll 11-
13    EGO     6   13      12-       ECV: 4
13    PRE     3   13      12-       PRE Attack: 2 1/2d6
12    COM     1   12      11-

4    PD      2   4             4 PD (0 rPD)
2    ED      0   2             2 ED (0 rED)
3    SPD     4   3                 Phases:  4, 8, 12
4    REC     0   4
24    END     0   24
22    STUN    0   22

6    RUN      0   6"                END [1]
1    SWIM     -1   1"                END [1]
2    LEAP     0   2"                2" forward, 1" upward
[b]CHA Cost: 40[/b]

[b][u]Cost[/u]   [u]MARTIAL ARTS[/u][/b]
     Swordmastery
3      1)  Basic Strike:  1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, Weapon +2 DC Strike
4      2)  Counterstrike:  1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Weapon +2 DC Strike, Must Follow Block
5      3)  Defensive Strike:  1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +3 DCV, Weapon  Strike
4      4)  Martial Disarm:  1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +1 DCV, Disarm; 22 STR to Disarm roll
4      5)  Martial Strike:  1/2 Phase, +0 OCV, +2 DCV, Weapon +2 DC Strike
3      6)  Takedown:  1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +1 DCV, Weapon  Strike; Target Falls
5      7)  Offensive Strike:  1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, Weapon +4 DC Strike
1      8)  Weapon Element:  Empty Hand
[b]MARTIAL ARTS Cost: 29[/b]

[b][u]Cost[/u]   [u]SKILLS[/u][/b]
3      Breakfall 12-
10      Defense Maneuver I-IV 
6      +2 with Swordmastery
5      +1 with DCV
2      AK: Homeland 11-
2      KS: Mercenaries 11-
2      PS: Mercenary 11-
5      Rapid Attack (HTH) 
3      Stealth 12-
2      Survival (Temperate/Subtropical) 11-
[b]SKILLS Cost: 40[/b]

[b][u]Cost[/u]   [u]TALENTS[/u][/b]
10      Deadly Blow:  +1d6 (any circumstances, any HTH weapon)
6      Ambidexterity (-1 Off Hand penalty)
[b]TALENTS Cost: 16[/b]

Base Pts: 75
Exp Required: 50
Total Exp Available: 0
Exp Unspent: 0
Total Character Cost: 125

 

If I were to turn him into a PC I'd remove a few Martial Maneuvers, lower the Defensive Maneuver a bit and buy some more non-combat skills with the extra points. And eventually buy them back with Experience I'd imagine.

 

He's a poor swimmer, but deadly with a sword in his hands. I also avoided some breakpoints on purpose, just for flavor. I might be inclinded to raise his INT to 13-15 to reflect years of training, at 11 he gains no "In Game" benefit, but it shows he just slightly smarter than your average bear. 16 Dex is just about the 15 Breakpoint so anyone stopping there goes after him. A munchkin might have bought a level or two of Combat Reflexes instead. Or someone 'optimizing' a bit more.

 

Basically I wanted to show that a "Unoptimized" character is still a very viable character to play in Hero.

(The Hero Designer files is attached as well)