No Chart SPD?

[Grail Quest]

How about this for handling SPD and combat:

 

(1) Sort characters by SPD.

Highest SPD acts first. Compare DEX if SPD is the same.

 

(2) After the character with the highest SPD has acted, he deducts 1 from his SPD count for this turn.

Any per-Phase effects that depend on the character's SPD (e.g., drowning) advance by 1 Phase.

If there are still any characters with SPD 1 or more, go back to Step 1. Otherwise, all characters now have SPD 0: Continue to Step 3.

 

(3) If any characters Held an Action, they may use it now. No more than 1 Full Phase may have been Held.

 

(4) All characters have now acted this Turn. The Turn therefore ends. Reset their SPD and do the usual post-12 recovery/upkeep.

 

It is assumed that, regardless of the SPD involved, all action that happened occured over 1 Turn, or 12 seconds.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: No Chart SPD?

 

It's certainly an option, but it starts looking more odd when you try to deal with things tied to segments instead of phases like flash effects, falling, and the like.

 

And unless people seriously save phases, high-spd people will end up with bunches of phases clumped at the end lower-spd folks can't react to. Currently with things spread out on the chart, this is less pronounced. Of course, some might consider this a feature and not a bug.

[Grail Quest]

Re: No Chart SPD?

 

The main idea was to allow SPD > 12 without extrapolating the SPD chart. I was thinking of using layers of time in a turn when someone has SPD 13+, but that got messy.

 

The action-clumping only happens when there is a gross SPD difference. If SPD is within 1-2 points, it'll usually spread out not too badly. For example, if A, B, and C have DEX 30, 20, 10 and SPD 4, 3, and 2 respectively, they act in this order:

AABABCABC

 

Under the present rules, they go in this order:

ABACBAABC

 

For per-segment effects, I might assign the effect a SPD of 12. But I'm really still looking at that as I really want to break out of the 12-SPD framework. I want to allow characters to have a SPD of over 12 if it works with the character concept.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: No Chart SPD?

 

For speeds greater than 12, could just give second actions based on the SPD-minus-12. So a 16 SPD would go once every segment, except on 3,6,9,12 when they have two phases.

[Basil]

Re: No Chart SPD?

 

I can see two problems right off.

 

How do you handle Haymakers? Specifically, when is "the bottom of the next Segment"?

 

Controlling a vehicle, if its SPD is not the same as yours. This is compicated enough with the current rules; with your change I'm not sure how it would be handled.

 

Other than those (and possibly others I can't thinik of off the top of my head), I think it's a good idea.

[Zed-F]

Re: No Chart SPD?

 

I think the problem of high-SPD characters getting several actions before lower SPD characters can react at all is a deal-breaker. It will seriously unbalance combat in favour of high SPD chars.

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: No Chart SPD?

 

I think the problem of high-SPD characters getting several actions before lower SPD characters can react at all is a deal-breaker. It will seriously unbalance combat in favour of high SPD chars.

 

Actually I think with the original proposed idea, the high SPD characters get their extra actions AFTER the low-SPD ones have used up theirs.

 

So: Four characters, Spds of 7,5,4,3

 

Turn goes like:

 

7

5

4

3

7

5

4

3

7

5

4

3

7

5

4 (no more 3)

7

5 (no more 4)

7 (no more 5)

7

 

In essence, it still functions pretty similarly to the current SPD chart, it just front-loads everybody's phases instead of spreading them out.

 

(edit: sounds like an episode of Friends...)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Chart SPD?

 

OK, let's say your character has a 12 SPD, and mine has a 4 SPD, just to take an extreme example. My character will always use his last phase of the turn to (Martial) Dodge with all levels on DCV and as many different Defensive abilities maxed out as possible.

 

I'll likely have a Force Field in a Multipower with my attacks, so I can max out my Force Field in that last phase. And I'll probably be Desolid as well.

 

I miss one attack opportunity, but you have to strike at my Turtle Mode for your next 9 phases.

[Doc Tough]

Re: No Chart SPD?

 

Doc sez...

 

Its an interesting concept and certainly would make the players pay attention to the turn play ( a major problem in the System), but does little to either simplify the game mechanic for new players (who find themselves glazing during combat anyway) or balance the feel of the action.

 

It also seems to give the high SPD characters a distinct advantage by actually letting them get in more attacks before lower SPD characters can. This can lead to uneven fights very quickly. V&V suffered from this problem a lot.

 

NTBADH, but the way I found to deal with many of the problems of the Turn System is convert it into a Segmented System. Everyone has a chance to do some kind of action every turn although it is likely only to note the moving of their character as movement becomes clearly Segmented too. In brings many of the options of play and combat into play to break the stagnant feel of the straight Turn System.

 

Doc Tough

[Grail Quest]

Re: No Chart SPD?

 

Actually I think with the original proposed idea, the high SPD characters get their extra actions AFTER the low-SPD ones have used up theirs.

 

So: Four characters, Spds of 7,5,4,3

 

Turn goes like:

 

7543754375437547577

 

Looking over the procedure I posted, I believe you are right!

 

Hadn't intended it that way, but back-loading could work out better.

I think it was in the Street Fighter RPG that I first realized that it can make a lot of sense for low-initiative characters to declare first, and high-initiative characters to react first. Having characters with a different number of actions over one Turn makes this sort of thing complicated, but by back-loading SPD, we can kind-of do this without too much additional complication.

 

In the early part of the Turn, high-DEX characters can Hold Actions or just take their Phase normally. High SPD characters can defend or whatever, and take their "intended" actions at the very end, which means DEX still determines overall initiative, rather than SPD.

 

 

... when is "the bottom of the next Segment"?

 

Controlling a vehicle, if its SPD is not the same as yours. This is compicated enough with the current rules; with your change I'm not sure how it would be handled.

 

The bottom of the next Segment could be the start of the next iteration. In the above sequence of actions, if any of the 4 characters began their Turn with a Haymaker, it finally lands where the caret is. If multiple characters initiated, they are resolved in the order they are initiated.

 

7543^754375437547577

 

As for vehicles, I believe the complication is that vehicles can move even when your character does not.

My thoughts about vehicles is that they are incorrectly handled in the current system. Isn't a horse a vehicle as soon as you get on it? The only difference seems to be that it has a brain.

What we can do with "dumb" vehicles is to say that on your actions, you can spend a half-phase to issue a movement order, which is carried out on the vehicle's next phase. Meanwhile, the vehicle obeys that order.

You may attack with the vehicle's weapons if they are bought to allow you to use them (Usable By Others), and you use them on your phases. If the vehicle cannot use its weapons on its own, they take a limitation on that.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: No Chart SPD?

 

OK, if I'm the 3 SPD guy, my sequence goes as follows:

 

7543

Attack normally

7543

attack normally

7543

Transfer attack Multipower to Foirce Field (or Force Wall) slot and activate at maximum power to protect myself; ; transfer all levels to DCV and Martial Dodge. That will last the rest of this turn:

 

7547577

 

and the first bit of next turn: 754

 

The 7 SPD will have to attack me in Turtle mode for 5 of his 7 phases, or give up the advatage of a SPD more than twice my own to save END. Any system that toploads or bottom loads those extra phases will allow a low SPD character to take advantage of this tactic. A system that spreads actions around the turn (like the SPD chart) mitigates the effectiveness of such tactics.

[Markdoc]

Re: No Chart SPD?

 

I'm not a big fan of the speed chart myself (though I like the SPD stat) but what, exactly is the point of this? Having read through the thread twice it appears to replace one fairly rigid system with another. I'm not sure what the advantage would be.

 

cheers, Mark

[Vondy]

Re: No Chart SPD?

 

The system seems workable, however, it is my overriding policy to eschew any novel idea that introduces additional run time mechanics, math, or book-keeping.

[prestidigitator]

Re: No Chart SPD?

 

I simply deal with Speeds of greater than 12 by adding additional, "Segments," on which normal Speed characters can act by delaying a (Half-)Phase or Aborting, but on which they do not normally get Phases. The duration of a Segment for a high Speed character becomes a fraction of a second (1/2 second for characters with Speed 13-24, 1/3 second for characters with Speed 25-36, etc.). Thus a Speed 15 character would get the following Phases:

1, 2, 3, 4, 4+1/2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 8+1/2, 9, 10, 11, 12, 12+1/2

(note that "Post-Segment 12" simply happens after ALL Phases are done for the Turn) and a Speed 26 character would get these Phases:

1, 1+2/3, 2, 2+2/3, 3, 3+2/3, 4, 4+2/3, 5, 5+2/3, 6, 6+1/3, 6+2/3, 7, 7+2/3, 8, 8+2/3, 9, 9+2/3, 10, 10+2/3, 11, 11+2/3, 12, 12+1/3, 12+2/3

For actions performed by the high-Speed character that take an extra Segment, simply go to the next, "Segment," as defined for that character. For example, the Speed 15 character does a Haymaker on his Segment 5 Phase; the Haymaker comes off on his Segment 5+1/2 (since he is Speed 13-24), which happens after all Segment 5 Phases and before all Segment 6 Phases (so no, a character with Speed 2 could not react in the meantime except by using a delayed or aborted action). If the Haymaker had instead been started on the character's Segment 6 Phase, the Speed 26 could easily foil it on his Segment 6+1/3 Phase (since 1/3 < 1/2).