Change Enviornment: Need Guidelines For A Failed Roll

[Dust Raven]

Okay, it's been awhile, but I've finally had the time to actually read that monster book of gaming I picked up last weekend. I found (quite planely stated) the rules that a CE can force an affected character to make a Roll, but nothing about the effects of failing the roll. No guidelines, no balancing factors, no point costs for more adverse conditions or anything. It would seem that there is no difference between absolutely no effect (and no Roll) and something just short of duplicating another Power.

 

Okay, so I can make a CE that forces anyone in the area to make a DEX roll at -4 or drop all their accessible foci, or fall down, or slide around uncontrolled. Or I can maybe make one with a -4 to INT Rolls, but forces everybody to make an INT (at the -4 penalty) or else they can't take an action that Phase (as if they had negative INT). Why not make a similar thing with CON, make a roll or you can't spend END.

 

None of these really step on the toes of other Powers, so can fit within the structure of CE, but are they really balanced and fair? Should they cost the same as a CE that just makes everyone take a penalty to a certain roll (and then may not even affect people because they don't attempt such things there)?

[Sociotard]

Re: Change Enviornment: Need Guidelines For A Failed Roll

 

After reading the section myself, I think it really comes down to GM kindness for anything other than just penalties. Y'see, the example in the book is of the ice sheet defined as CE(-4 Dex), where you have to make a roll or fall down. The actual language here is "The GM rules that . . ." as opposed to "The official rules state that . . ."

 

So, normally, this ice sheet would only matter if Ninja Bob was standing on it and tried an Acrobatic stunt. 'Twas GM mercy that made it otherwise.

 

After all, the same page lists Dr. Terrors fear aura, which ticks off a little presence (4 pts worth) and thats only to resist his PRE attacks, as opposed to "Make a PRE roll or piddle in your pants".

 

This is why I've never used CE in the past. It appears to do almost nothing and costs a lot of points.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Change Enviornment: Need Guidelines For A Failed Roll

 

I think in this particular case we can actually glean some wisdom from the name of the Power: Change Environment affects how the targets interact with the environment. That means it shouldn't generally keep them from taking actions (try Drain Speed, Mind Control, Entangle, etc.) and it shouldn't affect how they interact with their own equipment (try some form of Disarm with a Ranged attack or Grab with TK to make them drop their Foci). How they move, see (with most senses), hear, etc.? Those are intimately tied to the surrounding environment, and fit the bill of Change Environment quite well IMO.

[gojira]

Re: Change Enviornment: Need Guidelines For A Failed Roll

 

I just popped open Sidekick here (I *love* PDFs ).

 

CE gets a free -1 to any combat effect, such as -1 to running, or -1 to OCV or DCV. To get more than -1, you have to buy more levels of CE, with the cost given by a table.

 

It never says "The affected characters must immediately roll." It just says that the negative modifier is there if the character uses that power. Quote: "Change Environment can have minor negative effects on combat or Skills, or cause minor amounts of damage or related combat effects." The example on the side bar of an ice sheet sure seems to imply that a roll must be made, however.

 

Is that what you're talking about?

 

Yeah, it sure seem like GM fiat to me also. The GM might be within his rights to say "No, you don't normally have to make a Dex roll to move, so no Dex roll is required unless you force it some how." But a cool GM will say "Yeah, you can do that" and just make sure the power isn't abusive some how.

 

I can't see any hard and fast rule. I guess if it's not right off the table, then you negotiate with the GM. If your GM won't go for it, then you can just pick a standard effect. "My ice sheet is slippery and makes it hard to dodge attacks. -3 to DCV." Done.

[Sociotard]

Re: Change Enviornment: Need Guidelines For A Failed Roll

 

Well I was wrong. I really should have read the whole section.

 

The text did specify that entering a CE-affected area could force a character to make the specified roll or suffer some kind of penalty. It doesn't however, give any guidlines for how severe the penalty might be. It also mentioned that the cost of CE might change if the penalty was too severe. I'm not sure if that implies an adder or an advantage, but I'm leaning towards an adder. maybe we could come up with a few guidlines.

 

One thing I did notice was that anything involving Taking Damage or Altering CV should be scrutinized very closely. Come to think of it, that makes the Ice Sheet kind of odd, since falling down leaves the character prone, with all the penalties that entails.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Change Enviornment: Need Guidelines For A Failed Roll

 

I was wrong as well Sociatard, at least before posting this thread. Up until last weekend I only had 5E, but now I have 5ER and the full revised description of CE. And it confuses me.

[Frenchman]

Re: Change Enviornment: Need Guidelines For A Failed Roll

 

Maybe create a 5-point adder to change environment: Forces a Roll

Then the Ice Sheet, which forces a roll, would have to take it, while if it didn't the penalty would only apply when the victims make a roll normally.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Change Enviornment: Need Guidelines For A Failed Roll

 

This is one of those Dramatic Situations, and of course bring into effect a whole slew of Environmental rulings from the game and from common sense.

 

Let's go with the Ice Sheet, the Attacker imposes a -4DEX on all those on the sheet (in the AoE).

5erp379 gives Poor Footing (ice, mud, et cetera) a -1 DCV and a -1 DC to all attacks, the -4DEX alreadt does that first part, perhaps the second part is ruled a non-factor by the GM for this instance (and I think it's a silly negative anyways, should only apply to HtH Att, that's neither here nor there).

 

So the GM could rule a DEX Roll is not be required if the Attacker is not using Movement, but they still have the -4 DEX to stay upright and will lose CVs because of that.

 

5ERp440 starts a section specifically on Change Environment and some appropriate uses and consequences as well.

[gojira]

Re: Change Enviornment: Need Guidelines For A Failed Roll

 

The text did specify that entering a CE-affected area could force a character to make the specified roll or suffer some kind of penalty. It doesn't however' date=' give any guidlines for how severe the penalty might be. It also mentioned that the cost of CE might change if the penalty was too severe.[/quote']

 

Hmm, that wasn't in Sidekick. Oh well, I guess that's what happens when you get the cheapy version.

 

Overall I think this power needs some GM attention. -4 DEX is a pretty serious penalty. I don't think I'd allow more than about -5 or so, regardless of the SFX. In the case of Ice Sheet, I think I'd allow a roll because the people entering the Ice Sheet were probably surprised to find the ice there, so they slip and fall or slide around. Once that is over, the can get to their feet and move around, just more carefully.

 

As GM I might make CE either/or with respect to a constant penalty, or an immediate skill check. You either get -4 to running, or a -4 DEX roll on entering, but you normally don't get both. That seems fair.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Change Enviornment: Need Guidelines For A Failed Roll

 

I think Change Environment is one of those Powers that is going to rely rather heavily on Special Effects and GM ruling (which is fine with me). For example, no GM in their right mind is going to make a flying character in the area of the ice sheet CE be subject to it.

 

Is that worth a Limiation? Probably not on Change Environment, no. If it were some other AoE Power, such as AoE EB, Darkness, etc., then likely it would be worth a Limitation if flying (or more generally characters not on the ground) were excluded, but Change Environment is lose enough that even some major benefits and disadvantages based on common sense can easily factor in (even on a situational basis) without the mechanical nature of the power having to be mucked with.