Dispelling Advanced Technology

[Mike W]

Re: Dispelling Advanced Technology

 

OK, back after a bad weekend. We won't get into it. Now back to where I was going:

 

I would argue that allowing Missile Deflection to do more than "deflect" things, especially as cheaply as it does, is stepping on the toes of other powers. Normally, if you want to "negate" a power, you need Dispel or Suppress. Sure, Missile Deflect generally implies that no one gets hurt, but there is nothing in the description that says this must always be the case. The description assumes a "typical" scenario - which according to the "source material" would be one where no one is really on the battlefield to get hit other than heroes and badguys - and so there is LOTS of open space for the deflected missile to go. I would also go back to the metarule that you if you can think of more than one way to do something in HERO, you're supposed to do it the expensive way to maintain play balance.

 

As for builds in supplements being precedent or not, there are just too many bad builds(not just illegal but just plain BAD builds) to ever use them as guidelines. You can't put the CHAMPS universe together and have it match the guidelines for the GM in the base book. It doesn't even come close.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Dispelling Advanced Technology

 

The answer to this is the same answer to, "What happens to an attack that passes through a Desolid Character?"

 

Same rules apply.

 

- Christopher Mullins

 

The question would be "what happens to an attack that successfully hits a Desolid Character? Desolid does not automatically confer intangibility (but who am I kidding, I'm the guy who thinks Missile Deflection doesn't automatically confer deflecting things.)

[Dust Raven]

Re: Dispelling Advanced Technology

 

I don't really want to agrue this any further, but I have a Psych Limit.

OK, back after a bad weekend. We won't get into it. Now back to where I was going:

 

I would argue that allowing Missile Deflection to do more than "deflect" things, especially as cheaply as it does, is stepping on the toes of other powers. Normally, if you want to "negate" a power, you need Dispel or Suppress. Sure, Missile Deflect generally implies that no one gets hurt, but there is nothing in the description that says this must always be the case. The description assumes a "typical" scenario - which according to the "source material" would be one where no one is really on the battlefield to get hit other than heroes and badguys - and so there is LOTS of open space for the deflected missile to go. I would also go back to the metarule that you if you can think of more than one way to do something in HERO, you're supposed to do it the expensive way to maintain play balance.

 

I would say that phrases like "generaly implies" is being unfair to what the rules actually say. They do not imply anything. They state the facts of how the rules work.

 

Also, the description for Missile Deflection does no assume any kind of scenario. It simply states the rules of how the Power works. If you wanted to add in any kind of extra words to the description, it would probably read "in any given scenario, a Deflected attack typically causes no damage to other character or the local" or something to that effect.

 

As for source material, any single event can be explained a number of ways equal to the number of Hero System players explaining it. However, I can't imagine any other power than Missile Deflection for Superman pausing to get hit by hundreds of bullets that bounce off, never doing KB and never hitting anything despite the fact there are a dozen goons with machine guns standing in a 20ft circle around him.

 

As far as the most expensive build is concerned, I'm sure that applies only to complex builds, rather than comparing a complex build to a simple build. I'm sure you aren't charging players 20 points per d6 of a BOECV attack that's LOS, versus Mental Defense, Invisible to two sense groups and affects desolidified charaters, rather than just letting them buy Ego Attack.

 

As for builds in supplements being precedent or not, there are just too many bad builds(not just illegal but just plain BAD builds) to ever use them as guidelines. You can't put the CHAMPS universe together and have it match the guidelines for the GM in the base book. It doesn't even come close.

 

That much is definately true, though I have yet to see a build for Missile Deflection that in any way even bends the rules. Of course, I do think Missile Deflection works differently than some.

[schir1964]

Re: Dispelling Advanced Technology

 

Actually, no. Missle Deflection in essence forces an Attack to Miss. Therefore, same rules apply. But I did find some interesting references. (8^D)

 

Question: How does Desolidification interact with Missile

Deflection?

Answer: If a Desolidified character does not apply the

Affects Physical World Advantage to his Missile Deflection,

he cannot use it to Deflect any attacks from solid characters,

either for himself or at Range. (Of course, most solid attacks

are just going to pass right through him anyway.) He could

use it to Deflect attacks from other Desolidified characters,

unless the GM ruled otherwise. He cannot use it to Reflect

attacks at solid targets, regardless of whether he can Deflect

the attack.

As always, the GM may, in his discretion, waive

this rule, or charge a lesser value for the Affects Physical

World Advantage, if he thinks that’s appropriate.

 

Question: Is Missile Deflection just an “extension†of

Block, so that you could perform Blocks and Missile

Deflections in the same Segment as part of a unified defense?

Answer: No. Missile Deflection functions using mechanics

similar to Block, but it’s not an “extension†of Block per se.

Both Block and Missile Deflection are Attack Actions, and as

such end a character’s Phase. Combat Skill Levels that affect

Block do not automatically apply to Missile Deflection,

though some may depending on how they’re defined.

 

Question: If an Area Of Effect/Explosion attack has the

Can Be Missile Deflected Limitation, what happens when a

character Deflects it? Is it still possible that the character

could get caught in the blast damage? Does one successful

Deflection prevent anyone in the affected area from being

hit? What if the attack also has Selective?

Answer: If a character successfully Deflects an Area Of

Effect attack as described, he Deflects the attack is Deflected

to some harmless location, or causes it to fail to go off, or

what have you. Neither he nor anyone else in the vicinity is

harmed.

For an ordinary Area Of Effect attack, one

successful Deflection protects everyone within the target area

— they’re all missed. If the attack has Selective, that doesn’t

apply; a successful Deflection by one target doesn’t stop the

other targets from being hit.

 

*NEW*Q: If a character Missile Deflects an attack, does the

attack still occur? If so, could it hit an unintended target?

Answer: It all depends on special effects, but generally “the

attack still happens,†it just doesn’t hit anything or affect

anyone regardless — sort of like the rules for Autofire Area

Of Effects elsewhere in this Rules FAQ.

 

So based on the above, it would seem that if someone builds and Area Of Effect Attack that has the SFX of being delivered in a "Deflectable" object, then it is up to the GM to enforce that the power include the "Can Be Missle Deflected" limitation in order to meet the SFX required.

 

There's you answer. (8^D)

 

- Christopher Mullins

[Kristopher]

Re: Dispelling Advanced Technology

 

The question would be "what happens to an attack that successfully hits a Desolid Character? Desolid does not automatically confer intangibility (but who am I kidding' date=' I'm the guy who thinks Missile Deflection doesn't automatically confer deflecting things.)[/quote']

 

 

Never mind that first sentence in the description of Desolidification...

[Mike W]

Re: Dispelling Advanced Technology

 

I don't really want to agrue this any further, but I have a Psych Limit.

 

I would say that phrases like "generaly implies" is being unfair to what the rules actually say. They do not imply anything. They state the facts of how the rules work.

 

Also, the description for Missile Deflection does no assume any kind of scenario. It simply states the rules of how the Power works. If you wanted to add in any kind of extra words to the description, it would probably read "in any given scenario, a Deflected attack typically causes no damage to other character or the local" or something to that effect.

 

As for source material, any single event can be explained a number of ways equal to the number of Hero System players explaining it. However, I can't imagine any other power than Missile Deflection for Superman pausing to get hit by hundreds of bullets that bounce off, never doing KB and never hitting anything despite the fact there are a dozen goons with machine guns standing in a 20ft circle around him.

 

As far as the most expensive build is concerned, I'm sure that applies only to complex builds, rather than comparing a complex build to a simple build. I'm sure you aren't charging players 20 points per d6 of a BOECV attack that's LOS, versus Mental Defense, Invisible to two sense groups and affects desolidified charaters, rather than just letting them buy Ego Attack.

 

 

 

That much is definately true, though I have yet to see a build for Missile Deflection that in any way even bends the rules. Of course, I do think Missile Deflection works differently than some.

 

Let's see. A 2D6 RKA averages 7 BODY and rolls 3 dice for KB(average of 10.5) - so you aren't moving a paper target let alone Superman who has loads of KB resistance(if he's flying you roll one less dice - but Supes can use his Flight to reduce the KB even further so again, no way is he going anywhere).

 

Why do they bounce off without doing damage? Um, Superman has REALLY high defenses.

 

Why don't they hurt the goons? Because there is no mechanic that says an attack that hits a character but doesn't do damage can instead bounce off and hit someone else.

 

Missile Deflect is not needed to explain this at all.

 

As far as saying that the text can never "imply" anything. That's not true at all. Language always has implications, connotations, context, etc. that affect the literal meaning and which must be taken into account.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Dispelling Advanced Technology

 

Never mind that first sentence in the description of Desolidification...

 

That's correct, you can completely disregard that sentence. That one sentence alone has caused the most misconceptions and incorrect assumptions concerning Desolidification. Besides, if you take everything in the book litterally, the rules quickly become useless.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Dispelling Advanced Technology

 

Let's see. A 2D6 RKA averages 7 BODY and rolls 3 dice for KB(average of 10.5) - so you aren't moving a paper target let alone Superman who has loads of KB resistance(if he's flying you roll one less dice - but Supes can use his Flight to reduce the KB even further so again, no way is he going anywhere).

 

Why do they bounce off without doing damage? Um, Superman has REALLY high defenses.

 

Why don't they hurt the goons? Because there is no mechanic that says an attack that hits a character but doesn't do damage can instead bounce off and hit someone else.

 

Missile Deflect is not needed to explain this at all.

 

As far as saying that the text can never "imply" anything. That's not true at all. Language always has implications, connotations, context, etc. that affect the literal meaning and which must be taken into account.

 

The additional shots of an Autofire attack increase the effective BODY for determing KB. Also, Supes has also simply held up a hand and "absorbed"/blocked energy blasts, though more ofte it actually reflects them back at the attacker or otherwise in some harmless direction.

 

And there is a difference between implying something, and what a reader may infer from what is written. And readers are known to infer quite alot due to a simple as a bias which could be based upon any number of things.

[Mike W]

Re: Dispelling Advanced Technology

 

The additional shots of an Autofire attack increase the effective BODY for determing KB. Also, Supes has also simply held up a hand and "absorbed"/blocked energy blasts, though more ofte it actually reflects them back at the attacker or otherwise in some harmless direction.

 

And there is a difference between implying something, and what a reader may infer from what is written. And readers are known to infer quite alot due to a simple as a bias which could be based upon any number of things.

 

True, but each individual Autofire calculates KB separately and if Supes is bracing with his Flight, which you could argue he is doing even if he is just floating there, his Flight will provide more KB resistance(at -1KB per 1" of flight) than Supes could ever need because a M-16, even if it gets all 5 shots can't do more than 16 BODY, and I'm guessing no one here will build Supes with less than 14 inches of Flight.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Dispelling Advanced Technology

 

True' date=' but each individual Autofire calculates KB separately and if Supes is bracing with his Flight, which you could argue he is doing even if he is just floating there, his Flight will provide more KB resistance(at -1KB per 1" of flight) than Supes could ever need because a M-16, even if it gets all 5 shots can't do more than 16 BODY, and I'm guessing no one here will build Supes with less than 14 inches of Flight.[/quote']

 

Whatever. I'm not saying your option isn't a valid method of writint up Supes ability, just that Missile Deflection is equally valid.

[alexraccoon]

Re: Dispelling Advanced Technology

 

With the nuclear weapon why examine the problem from the point of the explosion. Look at the problem prior to that either by draining the battery of the weapon electronics, prevent the non nuclear explosive from detonating or applying an area affect device nuclear damper if the metal fails to reach critical mass then its not going to explode.