Sean Waters Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Two limitations, bith at -1/2 listed under invisibility: 1. Chameleon: only invisible when not moving 2. Only when not attacking (speaks for istelf, really...) The first you have to be completely motionless. The second you can move about all you like so long as you don't attack. Somehow it is perissible to take both. OK. So can someone explain why these two limitations have the same limitation value? This has puzzled me for some time... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations Two limitations, bith at -1/2 listed under invisibility: 1. Chameleon: only invisible when not moving 2. Only when not attacking (speaks for istelf, really...) The first you have to be completely motionless. The second you can move about all you like so long as you don't attack. Somehow it is perissible to take both. OK. So can someone explain why these two limitations have the same limitation value? This has puzzled me for some time... Hmm. Well, we might blame the granularity of the system's modifiers (+-1/4), but I will point out that some attacks may not require any movement at all. A lot of Mental Powers, for example, and probably a number with Indirect and no Gestures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkenfresh Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations They seem about the same in level of limitation to me. Besides, when you do attack, even without the "when not attacking" limitation, the weapon used to perform the attack is visible. I'm not sure how that works with a mental attack, perhaps your brain becomes visible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations They seem about the same in level of limitation to me. Besides' date=' when you do attack, even without the "when not attacking" limitation, the weapon used to perform the attack is visible. I'm not sure how that works with a mental attack, perhaps your brain becomes visible?[/quote'] Mental Attacks themselves are not normally (fully) visible. I would say that an invisible character making a mental attack would temporarily become visible for a moment to anyone with Mental Awareness (without the Only When Not Attacking Limitation, that is; if the Limitation is present I would say the Invisibility turns off until reactivated). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations I'm not convinced; most attacks come from a point of origin - even mental attacks - unless you have indirect - which means that you would at least need to move to aim, and thus give your position away. I'd put chameleon nearer to +1, personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkenfresh Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations Now it's an advantage?!? You're the GM, do whatever you feel is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations I've always ruled that "Only when not attacking" means that your invisibility turns off until your next phase, at which point you can take a 0 phase action and turn it on again. At SPD 4, that's a long time standing there as an available target. Also, key point, you can still move around freely. With Chameleon, your Invisibility never turns off. You can take a move or half move and attack, and still be invisible in those key segments between your phases. Take both together for -1 and you completely blow your cover when you move or attack. Just a GM's call, not an official rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations Now it's an advantage?!? You're the GM, do whatever you feel is right. Yeah, and if you have to hold your breath and stand on one leg it is a +2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted February 28, 2006 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations I've always ruled that "Only when not attacking" means that your invisibility turns off until your next phase, at which point you can take a 0 phase action and turn it on again. At SPD 4, that's a long time standing there as an available target. Also, key point, you can still move around freely. With Chameleon, your Invisibility never turns off. You can take a move or half move and attack, and still be invisible in those key segments between your phases. Take both together for -1 and you completely blow your cover when you move or attack. Just a GM's call, not an official rule. Good ruling! I wonder what penalties to assign for someone attacking a chameleon though if you KNOW where the target is, even if you can't see them? Normal invisibility derives the bonuses it gives at least in part becasue you don't know exactly wheree the target it.... Anyway this is a good ruling methinks: makes it make much more sense. Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddHat Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations Glad you found it useful. Targetting someone using Chameleon when you know where they are is (imo) attacking them using a non-targetting sense, as per the standard rules for attacking invisible foes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations OddHat, you've presented a truly profound ruling, as well as an explination for attacking a character with Chameleon Invisibility when you know where they are. Repped! Now I have to think of something useful to contribute... Naw... I think you've got it covered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silbeg Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations Two limitations, bith at -1/2 listed under invisibility: 1. Chameleon: only invisible when not moving You can certainly attack if not moving... example would be a sniper (even better is a sniper with a weapon with IPE). You know, I had never really thought of this before? 2. Only when not attacking (speaks for istelf, really...) This is more like the D&D Invis. spell, for example. When you attack, you would void the invis, regardless of whether or not the attack is invis. The power "just knows". Maybe the D&D Sanctuary spells is an even better example? Sean, I really hadn't thought of this (and I was working on a character with a "stealth suit" this weekend). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted February 28, 2006 Report Share Posted February 28, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations There is no rule stating that one must Move in any way to use an attack. Silbeg's sniper is a perfect example. Therefore they are not mutually exclusive Limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted March 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations Whilst there is no rule stating you have to move and (as Silberg rightly points out) a sniper is an example of someone who may move VERY LITTLE (under the threshold, probably) to attack, that is only because they are such a long way away and tiny movements of the gun have a big effect as it moving through an arc, at the point of aim. In anything like normal combat though at anything like normal combat range, movement is one of those necessary components of attack, unless you have the patience to just stand there until the target wanders into your point of aim, or a really impressive area effect attack. Technically even mental powers should have a point of origin and be targetted in a particular direction (so THEORETICALLY if a guard standing behind you points a gun at you and tells you to freeze, you can not mentally attack him, or even mind read him to see if he really has a gun, unless you have indirect or mind scan or a point of power origin in the back of your head, or you risk it and turn around anyway). Weird, huh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations Whilst there is no rule stating you have to move and (as Silberg rightly points out) a sniper is an example of someone who may move VERY LITTLE (under the threshold, probably) to attack, that is only because they are such a long way away and tiny movements of the gun have a big effect as it moving through an arc, at the point of aim. In anything like normal combat though at anything like normal combat range, movement is one of those necessary components of attack, unless you have the patience to just stand there until the target wanders into your point of aim, or a really impressive area effect attack. Technically even mental powers should have a point of origin and be targetted in a particular direction (so THEORETICALLY if a guard standing behind you points a gun at you and tells you to freeze, you can not mentally attack him, or even mind read him to see if he really has a gun, unless you have indirect or mind scan or a point of power origin in the back of your head, or you risk it and turn around anyway). Weird, huh? Mental Powers aren't inherently Indirect? Dang! I could have sworn they had some level of Indirect automatically. If not, they should. Just because I say so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dust Raven Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations Whilst there is no rule stating you have to move and (as Silberg rightly points out) a sniper is an example of someone who may move VERY LITTLE (under the threshold, probably) to attack, that is only because they are such a long way away and tiny movements of the gun have a big effect as it moving through an arc, at the point of aim. In anything like normal combat though at anything like normal combat range, movement is one of those necessary components of attack, unless you have the patience to just stand there until the target wanders into your point of aim, or a really impressive area effect attack. Isn't the "no movement" condition of Chameleon just moving from hex to hex? So the chameleon character can actually be jumping and jiving all he wants so long as it's all in the same hex. Granted, that doesn't seem to be too logical, but the point is is thst I think Chameleon allows some motion, but not as much motion as it would take to move from hex to hex. Technically even mental powers should have a point of origin and be targetted in a particular direction (so THEORETICALLY if a guard standing behind you points a gun at you and tells you to freeze, you can not mentally attack him, or even mind read him to see if he really has a gun, unless you have indirect or mind scan or a point of power origin in the back of your head, or you risk it and turn around anyway). Weird, huh? Indirect won't help you here, only 240 degree or 360 degree vision. The idea is that you have to target the person you want to attack with a targeting sense, and if all you have is Normal Sight, then you've got to either turn around or have some Power that makes it so you don't need to turn around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations Technically even mental powers should have a point of origin and be targetted in a particular direction (so THEORETICALLY if a guard standing behind you points a gun at you and tells you to freeze' date=' you can not mentally attack him, or even mind read him to see if he really has a gun, unless you have indirect or mind scan or a point of power origin in the back of your head, or you risk it and turn around anyway). Weird, huh?[/quote'] The point of origin is You. Usually your Brain. If you use Spatial Awareness, Targeting, 360 Degrees, Mental Group you don't have to move at all to locate, target and attack anyone around you. What you mention here is Arc Of Fire - everyone gets 180 Degrees for free, in the direction of your Facing. Arc Of Fire has nothing to do with Movement at all. As you expand your Arc Of Fire less and less "turning" it required to bring targets to bear. If you have a 360 Arc, and Invisible you can target anyone around you without having to techincally move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Cermak Posted March 1, 2006 Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations Isn't the "no movement" condition of Chameleon just moving from hex to hex? So the chameleon character can actually be jumping and jiving all he wants so long as it's all in the same hex. Granted' date=' that doesn't seem to be too logical, but the point is is thst I think Chameleon allows some motion, but not as much motion as it would take to move from hex to hex.[/quote'] This is more or less how I'd handle it. Movement within the hex can be done slowly and deliberately enough to stay Invisible. So changing facing or bringing an attack to bear wouldn't be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted March 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations Isn't the "no movement" condition of Chameleon just moving from hex to hex? So the chameleon character can actually be jumping and jiving all he wants so long as it's all in the same hex. Granted, that doesn't seem to be too logical, but the point is is thst I think Chameleon allows some motion, but not as much motion as it would take to move from hex to hex. The word it uses is 'motionless'. You might even have to make a DEX roll to remain motionless if a powerful enemy passes nearby, so I don't think dancing on the spot is what is envisaged.... Indirect won't help you here, only 240 degree or 360 degree vision. The idea is that you have to target the person you want to attack with a targeting sense, and if all you have is Normal Sight, then you've got to either turn around or have some Power that makes it so you don't need to turn around. Well you can target with a hearing roll, and indirect will let you shoot backwards, if bought to the right level. The point I make is that even mental powers have a point of origin and I have to disagree with erm...Dust Angel...that you can set your brain as the POO (so to speak), any move than you could set your liver as the POO of your energy blast and have it come out of any bit of you so long as it started there. I'm pretty sure that POO has to be on the surface somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted March 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations The point of origin is You. Usually your Brain. If you use Spatial Awareness, Targeting, 360 Degrees, Mental Group you don't have to move at all to locate, target and attack anyone around you. What you mention here is Arc Of Fire - everyone gets 180 Degrees for free, in the direction of your Facing. Arc Of Fire has nothing to do with Movement at all. As you expand your Arc Of Fire less and less "turning" it required to bring targets to bear. If you have a 360 Arc, and Invisible you can target anyone around you without having to techincally move. Being able to perceive a target and actually being able to point your attack at it are not the same. If you are tied with your hands behind your back and that is where your STUN BLAST comes from, the fact that you can see the villain in front of you is not going to help. I'm really not sure that setting an internal organ as your power's point of origin is legitiate, and even if it is, internal organs still have a facing, unless you have a brain that can rotate in your skull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations The point I make is that even mental powers have a point of origin and I have to disagree with erm...Dust Angel...that you can set your brain as the POO (so to speak)' date=' any move than you could set your liver as the POO of your energy blast and have it come out of any bit of you so long as it started there. I'm pretty sure that POO has to be on the surface somewhere.[/quote'] Hmm. But would, "head," be specific enough? Certainly you don't have to specify which finger.... And that really is getting confusing, guys! The names are one thing, but did you have to do the pictures too?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations I'm really not sure that setting an internal organ as your power's point of origin is legitiate' date=' and even if it is, internal organs still have a facing, unless you have a brain that can rotate in your skull.[/quote'] See my statements regarding Arc Of Perception. Mental Powers are targeting via Line Of Sight - which is determined by he Arc Of Fire of a Targeting Sense. Bringing in restrainment to the picture merely alters the Arc Of Fire and Ability To Perceive and still has nothing to do with Movement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations Well you can target with a hearing roll' date=' and indirect will let you shoot backwards, if bought to the right level. The point I make is that even mental powers have a point of origin and I have to disagree with erm...Dust Angel...that you can set your brain as the POO (so to speak), any move than you could set your liver as the POO of your energy blast and have it come out of any bit of you so long as it started there. I'm pretty sure that POO has to be on the surface somewhere.[/quote'] Well, since Mental Powers react Mentally I would say your Mental Facility (Brain) is a pretty good place for the Origin of a Mental Power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations The point being is that I believe we've come up with enough situations, enough power builds and enough Sensory contructs to prove that Movement and Attacking are mutually exclusive concepts at least half the time for the purposes of Invisibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prestidigitator Posted March 2, 2006 Report Share Posted March 2, 2006 Re: Invisibility limitations See my statements regarding Arc Of Perception. Mental Powers are targeting via Line Of Sight - which is determined by he Arc Of Fire of a Targeting Sense. Hmm. I'm not sure. The target of a Mental Power doesn't have to actually be visible to you. Is it that they must be within the normal arc of the Targetting Sense, or just within its "range?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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