Spell build help needed: Transform + AOE

[Play4Keeps]

I'm building a spell lets a wizard change the state of bulk stuff: solidify a lava field, melt a frozen lake, turn an avalanch into steam, like that.

 

Its Transform with Limited Target, and other stuff. To make it useful its got to have AOE. Begs the question: what BOD is the Tform acting against? The BOD of the whole thing he's trying to Tform, or each hex of the target?

 

My friend says each hex, like each target in an EB AOE. I'm not convinced. Is that right?

 

Another question: if the Tform is acting on the BOD of each hex, what about if the AOE is Megascaled? What BOD is the Tform acting on then?

[Basil]

Re: Spell build help needed: Transform + AOE

 

You're more likely to get an answer to these questions in the "Hero System Discussion" forum.

 

Off the cuff, I believe you need to do double the BODY of the entire object if you deal with it as a single object, but only one "hex" volume if you deal with it as X "hex" volumes of a substance.

 

That is, if you're Transforming Lake McGuffin, you have to deal with all the water as one thing, but if you're Transforming so-and-so-many cubic meters of "lake water" your AoE Transform only has to deal with ~8 Megagrams of water in each "hex" volume, separately, to each "hex" volume in the AoE.

 

But, I could be wrong, and I certainly have no idea how MegaScaled AoE Transforms work.

 

Like I said, try posting this to "Hero System Discussion."

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Spell build help needed: Transform + AOE

 

Seems more like a Change Environment than a transform:think:

[Old Man]

Re: Spell build help needed: Transform + AOE

 

To change an avalanche into steam? That's one hell of a CE.

 

I'm going to go with the body of each hex. Transforming the aggregate body of many hexes of water or dirt would require an astronomically high active point total. Besides, then what is the AE for?

[Chiba Bob]

Re: Spell build help needed: Transform + AOE

 

To change an avalanche into steam? That's one hell of a CE.

 

Change Environment 2" Line; +0, +20 Temperature Level Adjustment, MegaScale (1" = 1 km; +1/4) (77 Active Points); Only Works On Ice or Snow (-1), Instant (-1/2)

 

Doesn't seem too unfeasible to me:think:

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Spell build help needed: Transform + AOE

 

First, this is a CE, not a Transform. You can WRITE it as a Transform, but this is what CE was built to do. Second, I would recommend possibly building your CE as a Multipower to cover various scenarios, or go all-out and purchase Variable Effects (+2) to effectively create a CE VPP. So long as the environment is changable, this power can do it. Then you slap on Megascale and what have you.

 

I asked Steve a few days ago how a multi-hex footprint attack would affect a vehicle; the vehicle has a set BODY, even if it's huge, it has a set BODY, not X BODY/HEX. So your AOE CE simply needs to overcome the GM called BODY (likely fairly reasonable) and the AOE does the rest. One of those quirks in the system.

 

d20 works similarly, except it does it with Handwavium. They say it happens, so it does.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Spell build help needed: Transform + AOE

 

I'd say go with the Transform, myself.

 

Idea. Instead of saying one hex of water masses eight tons, therefore has 13 BODY, therefore 800 hexes of water has 10,400 BODY, take the BODY of the entire mass of water as one piece. 800 hexes of water masses 3200 tons, therefore has 22 BODY.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Spell build help needed: Transform + AOE

 

Ignore the man behind the curtain. CE! *slam slam* CE! *slam slam*

 

Okay, seriously: there are two ways to tackle this, both valid. Without building the power myself I don't know which would be cleaner, but that's usually the objective at the end of the day. What's the cleanest, most efficient way to do this? Chris may very well be right, but a CE with Variable is going to cover more things in general than a Transform.

 

Although the new Transform rules treat Transform as Continuous, so there's something to be said for that as well. I don't think the lava would have Power Defense.

[Outsider]

Re: Spell build help needed: Transform + AOE

 

I'd go with the CE just so it becomes horribly expensive to do damage with the spell. The Transform method runs into the problem of creating 'dangerous world' effects without paying for them.

 

Example :

Mage : "I transform the bay (which happens to have an approaching enemy fleet in it) into steam!"

GM : "OK... looks like your transform does enough body to do so..."

Mage : "Yeah, and all those invading ships just fell 10 hexes to the bottom of the now empty bay, so I get 10D6 falling damage on all of them (and their passengers)... AND they're all bathed in live steam, which does 2-3D6 killing (per hex) until they run out of it....HAHAHA!"

GM : "..."

 

Or worse...

 

Mage : "I transform the rocky plain outside the south wall of the town into molten lava! Everyone standing on it falls in and takes 4D6 Killing AND 14D6 Normal, and has to swim out HAHAHA!"

 

GM :

[Robyn]

Re: Spell build help needed: Transform + AOE

 

Does the Transform in 5ER automatically make it easier to change substances into related substances, or would I be able to take that as a Limitation?

 

For example, if I wanted to change glass into sand, would that be cheaper than changing glass into ice?

[DangerousDan]

Re: Spell build help needed: Transform + AOE

 

I'm building a spell lets a wizard change the state of bulk stuff: solidify a lava field, melt a frozen lake, turn an avalanch into steam, like that.

 

Its Transform with Limited Target, and other stuff. To make it useful its got to have AOE. Begs the question: what BOD is the Tform acting against? The BOD of the whole thing he's trying to Tform, or each hex of the target?

 

My friend says each hex, like each target in an EB AOE. I'm not convinced. Is that right?

 

Yes AOE Transform can be used that way, and I've seen at least one such example in a Hero Systems sourcebook. If your friend telling you that that is how it works happens to be the GM, then it definitely works that way. Not too long ago I built and played a Dwarvish Earth-mage with an AOE transform earth (stone, minerals and metals). It was around 50 active points, and a few real points. While playing, I used it to build walls, gates, bridges, trenches and traps.

 

After all, the rules for Entangle say that it cannot be used to create bridges, braces or stairs; to do that use Transform. The rules for Change Environment say that it creates subtle effects over a large area, and the changes are rarely long-lasting or permanent, while Transform creates a drastic change over a limited area, and its effects typically last a long time.

 

Another question: if the Tform is acting on the BOD of each hex' date=' what about if the AOE is Megascaled? What BOD is the Tform acting on then?[/quote']

 

The GM could base the BODY for each hex of material on the 'wall body' value for 1m or 2m thick walls in the "Breaking Things" chapter or use some other similar values.

[Play4Keeps]

Re: Spell build help needed: Transform + AOE

 

Use Change Env to turn 3000 degree lava into 10 degree rock?

 

I don't think so!

 

I hoped there's an official ruling about Transf. and AoE. Anybody know?

 

I'll repost the orginal to "Rule Discussion" thanks.