Best way to model a booming voice?

[Robyn]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

I've got to admit' date=' I just don't understand the logic behind all the various suggestions for using Flash, when that's supposed to [i']take away[/i] the sense of hearing...

 

The "become audible" is important because it takes place within an area where people normally "cannot hear each other". If the character were easier to hear, but everyone else could converse normally, this would not be as meaningful.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

:sigh: Normally we pay for the benefits of a power as it is intended, not side effects (which, if anything, tend to reduce the cost). If there are secondary beneficial effects we use Advantages, buy another aspect of the power and link it in, or chalk it up to SFX/dramatic sense.

 

The intent of this power is to make the character more audible. Therefore we should be making a construct that is aimed at making the character more audible. Flash is definitely not the right Power for that. So if you want to add in a small Flash, go for it, but that's not how the character should be made more audible; there are well-defined, quantifiable (as in you know the Per roll modifier) means for doing that in the system already.

 

Sorry. I'd never let Flash cut it for this power. (Yes, certain instances of Flash may produce very loud noise, but I'm not going to give the character well-defined, predictable, controllable benefits such as the desire to communicate over loud distances or in noisy surroundings unless they pay for that ability or at the very least use a Power skill on a temporary basis for it.)

[Robyn]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

The intent of this power is to make the character more audible.

 

If the power is only intended for use when the audio interference is present from the weather powers:

 

It's for a weather control character who wants to be able to have a loud, booming voice that can be heard over the howling winds he creates.

 

Then we can make it one of the manifestions of his power, only usable when he has the howling winds. At that stage it's a penalty to the Perception roll for every situation except other people when he's speaking. If that's the case, Flash is slightly appropriate with exceptions, but Darkness seems more appropriate since the howling winds are a continuous effect.

[Guest WhammeWhamme]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

If the power is only intended for use when the audio interference is present from the weather powers:

 

 

 

Then we can make it one of the manifestions of his power, only usable when he has the howling winds. At that stage it's a penalty to the Perception roll for every situation except other people when he's speaking. If that's the case, Flash is slightly appropriate with exceptions, but Darkness seems more appropriate since the howling winds are a continuous effect.

 

I don't get this. He can boom his voice when he's not using his powers either, right?

[Robyn]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

I don't get this. He can boom his voice when he's not using his powers either' date=' right?[/quote']

 

I don't know. That's why I used "if" twice, I hope The Souljourner will come back and give us more information

[Armitage]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

Ultimate Metamorph, page 154. Size Alteration Powers.

 

Stentorian Voice

Hearing Group Images Increased Size (1,000" radius; +2 1/2), +4 to PER Rolls, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (68 Active Points); Set Effect (Only to make character's voice really loud; -1), Instant (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), Limited Effect Normal Hearing (-1/4). Total cost: 21 points.

 

The radius could be reduced if you didn't need people 2 kilometers away to hear you.

[alexraccoon]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

Volume when we speak is a factor of the amount ofair passing through the vocal cords

to shout you need to intake more breath than normal and requires more physical effort. The physical effort involved in breathing uses your chest and stomach muscles /the diaphragm. If your character is stonger and has greater than average con and endurance then they should be able to have a louder more distinct voice.

If you want a more specific effect then use added presence or mind control only when speaking.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

I've got to admit' date=' I just don't understand the logic behind all the various suggestions for using Flash, when that's supposed to [i']take away[/i] the sense of hearing...

 

Which is exactly what a booming voice should do, especially when used at close range directly at a specific person (say, right into their ear). Now, if you didn't ever want to do that to anyone, ever, period... then by all means, build it some other way. In my opinion though, you shouldn't have to pay more if all you want is one side effect of another Power due to SFX. What would the player think if he saw some other character that had bought Flash Hearing Group with the SFX of yelling really loud?

 

:sigh: Normally we pay for the benefits of a power as it is intended, not side effects (which, if anything, tend to reduce the cost). If there are secondary beneficial effects we use Advantages, buy another aspect of the power and link it in, or chalk it up to SFX/dramatic sense.

 

The intent of this power is to make the character more audible. Therefore we should be making a construct that is aimed at making the character more audible. Flash is definitely not the right Power for that. So if you want to add in a small Flash, go for it, but that's not how the character should be made more audible; there are well-defined, quantifiable (as in you know the Per roll modifier) means for doing that in the system already.

 

Sorry. I'd never let Flash cut it for this power. (Yes, certain instances of Flash may produce very loud noise, but I'm not going to give the character well-defined, predictable, controllable benefits such as the desire to communicate over loud distances or in noisy surroundings unless they pay for that ability or at the very least use a Power skill on a temporary basis for it.)

 

For some things, I'd agree. Some things provide enough of an advantge they need to be paid for and covered separately or made into their own Power. But honestly, how pivitol is talking loud? Is it really worth that much that you'd make a character that had already spend X points on Flash Hearing Group (SFX is a booming voice so loud it deafens) pay separately for the effect? I wouldn't, and neither would I make some other chracter spend any points on the effect at all (instead, they are paying for the same ability, perhaps to a lesser degree, and getting the same side effect for free).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

Ultimate Metamorph, page 154. Size Alteration Powers.

 

Stentorian Voice

Hearing Group Images Increased Size (1,000" radius; +2 1/2), +4 to PER Rolls, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (68 Active Points); Set Effect (Only to make character's voice really loud; -1), Instant (-1/2), No Range (-1/2), Limited Effect Normal Hearing (-1/4). Total cost: 21 points.

 

The radius could be reduced if you didn't need people 2 kilometers away to hear you.

 

Well, if you want to be heard (and understood) miles away, then this would be the way to go. The side effects of a Flash with the appropriate SFX would just make you loud locally.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

For some things' date=' I'd agree. Some things provide enough of an advantge they need to be paid for and covered separately or made into their own Power. But honestly, how pivitol is talking loud? Is it really worth that much that you'd make a character that had already spend X points on Flash Hearing Group (SFX is a booming voice so loud it deafens) pay separately for the effect? I wouldn't, and neither would I make some other chracter spend any points on the effect at all (instead, they are paying for the same ability, perhaps to a lesser degree, and getting the same side effect for free).[/quote']

It's like buying more Dex to make yourself run faster. Yes, enough Dex will give you more Speed which will also allow you to move faster in combat, but if the intent is to make the character move faster over ground, best to buy Running because that is what it is made for. Or maybe a better analogy would be buying a RKA with AoE: Line so that we can move through the ground, when we should just be buying Tunneling.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

It's like buying more Dex to make yourself run faster. Yes' date=' enough Dex will give you more Speed which will also allow you to move faster in combat, but if the intent is to make the character move faster over ground, best to buy Running because that is what it is made for. Or maybe a better analogy would be buying a RKA with AoE: Line so that we can move through the ground, when we should just be buying Tunneling.[/quote']

 

It's not like that at all. Both the up front effects of DEX and the fact it affects SPD are both game mechanics with established value. They are both Characteristics and both have definate point costs. What is talking loud then? There is no point cost, it's just an effect. The question is what is it an effect of, or what can it do?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

It's not like that at all. Both the up front effects of DEX and the fact it affects SPD are both game mechanics with established value. They are both Characteristics and both have definate point costs. What is talking loud then? There is no point cost' date=' it's just an effect. The question is what is it an effect of, or what can it do?[/quote']

What can it do? For one thing it can be used quite effectively in combination with Oratory, Tactics, or Teamwork. You could coordinate a whole battle as long as you didn't mind your enemies hearing you as well. It would work quite well for raising the alarm when you spot a threat during your watch (letting the party know precisely what the threat is and where it is coming from). And yes it could certainly provide the bonuses to Pre Attacks when the nature of your power isn't known (remember the Wizard of Oz?).

 

EDIT: And I think you missed my meaning a little bit on the Dex thing. The point is that you should buy the ability in a manner that reflects well the main purpose you wish it to have. Images is a well-established Power for doing exactly this kind of thing, just as Running is the clear choice when you simply wish to increase your overland movement rate, and Tunneling is the clear choice when you want to burrow underground.

[Robyn]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

What can it do? For one thing it can be used quite effectively in combination with Oratory' date=' Tactics, or Teamwork. You could coordinate a whole battle as long as you didn't mind your enemies hearing you as well. It would work quite well for raising the alarm when you spot a threat during your watch (letting the party know precisely what the threat is and where it is coming from). And yes it could certainly provide the bonuses to Pre Attacks when the nature of your power isn't known (remember the Wizard of Oz?).[/quote']

 

The bonuses to a Presence attack are already implied, I think, within the mechanics for a Presence attack. For the rest I see just a Naked Advantage, "ranged enhancement", usable on skills, powers, and SFX.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

The bonuses to a Presence attack are already implied' date=' I think, within the mechanics for a Presence attack. For the rest I see just a Naked Advantage, "ranged enhancement", usable on skills, powers, and SFX.[/quote']

Nah. The skills can already be used at any range provided you can communicate in some way. This power is allowing that communication over larger distances than usual. Agreed on the Presence Attack; it would be a situational bonus (possibly not applicable every time), and I wasn't trying to imply otherwise.

 

This is just like a megaphone, but without the Focus. How do we buy a megaphone? With Images, usually.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

Actually, what I eventually decided in the megaphone thread of ages past was to use Flash.

 

I can definately see your point of view on this Prestidigitator (at least I'm pretty sure I can). You seem to be of the opinion that you take what is originally asked for and work toward providing exactly that. There's nothing wrong with that; it's how the system was designed to be used it seems. But I often find that approach too limiting.

 

For example, how many times have you had a player want a character with some ability, X. X is easily identified, easily built and the player is happy his character has it. Then in game, that player wants his character to do Y. Y is related to X, but it's X, and X doesn't let him do that. Logically, any character doing X should be able to do Y, or at least might be able to do Y, but because the character has X instead of Y (or X and Y), he's screwed.

 

In this case, a booming voice is X, and the ability to use a loud voice to deafen people is Y. You could logically that a person with a voice loud enough to be heard over the roaring winds of a powerful storm should be able to scream at someone nearby and temporarily deafen them. Unfortunately, if the character only buys the ability to speak loudly, he has no chance of deafening anyone. However, the character who bought Flash Hearing Group, Reduced By Range (or No Range) instead of Images can do both. He can deafen because it's bought as a Flash, and he can speak loudly because that's the SFX of the Power, and typically inconsequential enough to fall under the rules for SFX.

 

The reason I'm suggesting using Flash instead of Images specifically in this case (for this ability and SFX) is because Flash happens to be the cheaper Power. Again, why should someone be forced, or even urged, to spend more points on less ability?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

In this case' date=' a booming voice is X, and the ability to use a loud voice to deafen people is Y.[/quote']

I understand that frustration. I think the Power skill does a decent job of addressing the general issue of buying a power and not being able to do closely related things with it. As close as the system gets, anyway.

You could logically that a person with a voice loud enough to be heard over the roaring winds of a powerful storm should be able to scream at someone nearby and temporarily deafen them. Unfortunately, if the character only buys the ability to speak loudly, he has no chance of deafening anyone. However, the character who bought Flash Hearing Group, Reduced By Range (or No Range) instead of Images can do both. He can deafen because it's bought as a Flash, and he can speak loudly because that's the SFX of the Power, and typically inconsequential enough to fall under the rules for SFX.

Well, one of the things I like to consider (especially when discussing builds among the online community instead of with a single GM) is how different GMs may interpret things. There is no question that if you buy Images with +4 Per and Only to Magnify My Voice (-1), any sane GM is going to let you do just that. If you buy it as a Flash, though, there is a heck of a lot of room for interpretation. Would I personally allow it? Probably, in some or most circumstances, but I can anticipate times when I may not, and I could not really fault another GM for restricting the power to the purview of Flash, either.

The reason I'm suggesting using Flash instead of Images specifically in this case (for this ability and SFX) is because Flash happens to be the cheaper Power. Again, why should someone be forced, or even urged, to spend more points on less ability?

Flash will cost 3/d6 Active with maybe -1/2 in Limitations (No Range); Images will cost 5+3/(+1 Per) Active and have at least -3/2 in Limitations (Set Effect (-1) and No Range (-1/2)). We'd really have to define the Per bonus for hearing a Flash attack to figure out which one is going to be cheaper, and how to actually buy and use the Flash version to be as effective as we want it to be too, for that matter. It is already well-defined for Images, so again there is less chance for a wide variation in interpretation.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

Some more information - yes, of course he can boom his voice when he's not using his change environment... but that doesn't really matter, since that would simply be a matter of adding Linked if it were dependant on it.

 

Honestly, I think the Flash idea is silly. No where in Flash does it say you can give bonuses to perception checks to notice your Flash attack, any more than you get bonuses to notice an EB attack based on light or sound. You might give a coincident +1 or +2 to perception checks if the SFX suggest it, but you certainly shouldn't get much more of a benefit than that. To get like +5 to a perception check, you really should be using a power that adds to perception checks.

 

A Flash is definitely not the way I want to model his voice. Yes, it can be very loud, but it shouldn't ever actually deafen anyone. There are a ton of things that are very loud that don't actually deafen you.

 

Growth is an interesting idea, since it, too, makes you easier to perceive. I never really thought about it as being for perception checks other than sight, but I guess you make a lot more noise and a lot more stench when you're huge

 

Armitage pointed out a use of Images that pretty much matches what I said in the beginning. The area of effect is great if you want to have your voice be the same volume across the entire area, but I don't really want or need that, so a tiny area of effect is perfect for me. People outside the area of effect can still perceive the images, they just take normal range penalties, which is how it should be.

 

-Nate

[Dr. Anomaly]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

Since you want him to be able to be heard over the storm winds, treat the voice as an Active Sense to determine its point cost, and then apply Penetrating as a Naked Advantage with the figured point cost as the cost of the base power. That way no matter how much noise is going on, at least a little of his voice will be able to be heard!

 

 

 

(N.B.: No, I'm not serious, of course. )

[The Souljourner]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

Since you want him to be able to be heard over the storm winds' date=' treat the voice as an Active Sense to determine its point cost, and then apply Penetrating as a Naked Advantage with the figured point cost as the cost of the base power. That way no matter how much noise is going on, at least a little of his voice will be able to be heard! [/quote']

 

oh, ok, 'cause I was gonna suggest EDM: travel to a dimension where his voice is louder.

 

-Nate

[Dust Raven]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

Honestly, I think the Flash idea is silly. No where in Flash does it say you can give bonuses to perception checks to notice your Flash attack, any more than you get bonuses to notice an EB attack based on light or sound. You might give a coincident +1 or +2 to perception checks if the SFX suggest it, but you certainly shouldn't get much more of a benefit than that. To get like +5 to a perception check, you really should be using a power that adds to perception checks.

 

A Flash is definitely not the way I want to model his voice. Yes, it can be very loud, but it shouldn't ever actually deafen anyone. There are a ton of things that are very loud that don't actually deafen you.

Not loud enough to deafen doesn't sound like anything near a +5 to a PER Roll. A skunk (which can be smelled from quite a distance is overpowers other scents) only has a +4, and near complete darkness only imposses a -4 penalty. While neither of these are hearing, they are examples of extreme sense modifiers. If something that provides only a +/- 4 can effectively blind/block a sense, it's not a great leap to think that a +5 can do so as well.

 

As to your point about there being no rules concerning differentation of perception of Powers, all a GM has to go on are the rules for SFX. There are no rules concerning how easy/difficult it is to perceive a Power. All that's mentioned is that some Powers are required to be perceivable unless bought IPE. There's the Noisy Limitation I suppose, but that's probably even more silly from your point of view.

 

Of course, if you don't want to model this with Flash, don't. I'm just trying to make a suggestion.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

Some more information - yes, of course he can boom his voice when he's not using his change environment... but that doesn't really matter, since that would simply be a matter of adding Linked if it were dependant on it.

 

Honestly, I think the Flash idea is silly. No where in Flash does it say you can give bonuses to perception checks to notice your Flash attack, any more than you get bonuses to notice an EB attack based on light or sound. You might give a coincident +1 or +2 to perception checks if the SFX suggest it, but you certainly shouldn't get much more of a benefit than that. To get like +5 to a perception check, you really should be using a power that adds to perception checks.

 

A Flash is definitely not the way I want to model his voice. Yes, it can be very loud, but it shouldn't ever actually deafen anyone. There are a ton of things that are very loud that don't actually deafen you.

 

Growth is an interesting idea, since it, too, makes you easier to perceive. I never really thought about it as being for perception checks other than sight, but I guess you make a lot more noise and a lot more stench when you're huge

 

Armitage pointed out a use of Images that pretty much matches what I said in the beginning. The area of effect is great if you want to have your voice be the same volume across the entire area, but I don't really want or need that, so a tiny area of effect is perfect for me. People outside the area of effect can still perceive the images, they just take normal range penalties, which is how it should be.

 

-Nate

 

Just out of curiosity, would you model fireworks (big skyshow type, not safe & sane) using a flash, EB, or Images?

Just curious if there is a consistant logic behind your preference, or if it's just a gut thing.

Either'd be OK, in my book

[The Souljourner]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

Well, here's the thing... in hero you have to pay for any and all effects you wish to have. Things can be loud and not deafen you, bright and not blind you.

 

Honestly, if I was modelling fireworks, I'd probably make it a compound power, images and flash, because they obviously can deafen you, and are also visible/audible from very far away.

 

Another thing I just thought of... just because something's deafening doesn't mean the sound carries a long way. Some frequencies travel a lot further than others. Low frequencies tend to travel further, whereas high frequencies don't, but are more likely to do damage to your ears.

 

I can hear people talking across a 3/4 mile lake, because sound carries so well over water, but I wouldn't be deafened by them if I stood next to them. Some people's voices tend to carry better than others, too. Yes, I want this guy's voice to be loud, but I also just want it to be easily heard.

 

-Nate

[Dust Raven]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

Well, here's the thing... in hero you have to pay for any and all effects you wish to have. Things can be loud and not deafen you, bright and not blind you.

 

Honestly, if I was modelling fireworks, I'd probably make it a compound power, images and flash, because they obviously can deafen you, and are also visible/audible from very far away.

 

Another thing I just thought of... just because something's deafening doesn't mean the sound carries a long way. Some frequencies travel a lot further than others. Low frequencies tend to travel further, whereas high frequencies don't, but are more likely to do damage to your ears.

 

I can hear people talking across a 3/4 mile lake, because sound carries so well over water, but I wouldn't be deafened by them if I stood next to them. Some people's voices tend to carry better than others, too. Yes, I want this guy's voice to be loud, but I also just want it to be easily heard.

 

-Nate

 

Buy it as a +2 or 3 to the Voice Sense.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

I just want to give everyone else a bonus to hear me speak. The special effect is that my voice is so loud, it is easier to hear than normal. It's for a weather control character who wants to be able to have a loud, booming voice that can be heard over the howling winds he creates.

 

-Nate

If there's no direct benefit to the character and they always have a loud voice (such as some people that are hard of hearing seem to have), take a Physical Limitation: LOUD (+1 to PER Rolls to Hear When Speaking) -5

 

If they can control it, take a Distinctive Feature: Loud, Easily Concealed, etc etc etc. This might work out to be -0 points.

 

If there is a game benefit to it, buy the benefit; generally PRE would be appropriate, but a bonus to Oratory and / or other Interaction Skills could be appropriate as well.

[Robyn]

Re: Best way to model a booming voice?

 

Another thing I just thought of... just because something's deafening doesn't mean the sound carries a long way. Some frequencies travel a lot further than others. Low frequencies tend to travel further, whereas high frequencies don't, but are more likely to do damage to your ears.

 

I can hear people talking across a 3/4 mile lake, because sound carries so well over water, but I wouldn't be deafened by them if I stood next to them. Some people's voices tend to carry better than others, too. Yes, I want this guy's voice to be loud, but I also just want it to be easily heard.

 

Take it as an Area of Effect skill bonus, then, or "Usable By Others"; the skill is whatever is responsible for hearing, "only for your voice".