Global Teleportation: How?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

MAJOR NOTE: the power you are describing is what... 3 ap?

How useful is it supposed to be?

lets see...

 

1" teleport, +1/4 scalable, +1.75 for 100000KM = 6 cp for teleporting worldwide.

 

Your issue here is in allowing the base teleport to be 1". I suppose if I'm going to allow that, I may as well require the enhanced sense. Please, players, be as unreasonable as you want with the Megascale distance, but you have to pay points for the ability to actually USE this power you paid points for.

 

I think you costed that MS Sense at about 12 points, so that's 18 in aggregate. My character will just buy the construct you list above Usable as an Attack (+1), at range (+1/2), Line of Sight (+1/2), 1 hex Accurate (+1/2), 0 END (+1), Autofire (+1 1/2 - however many shots that is) for 14 points. May as well put the two Teleports in a Multipower, I suppose. If we're not going to be reasonable on the Transport Self power, no sense being reasonable on the Transport Others power either.

 

Color me silly but for the price of a single floating location you get world wide teleport and if the Gm handwaves the sensroy hit thats it?

 

I'd say the 14 point "move others" power is a lot more useful than the 18 points for "move self", but there you go.

 

Teleport also allows you to purchase directly the ability to have safe places to teleport to even if out of sight. These are done by buying fixed or floating points and cost points.

 

This "teleport sense" we ar describing here is simply a sort of "universal floating point" where you can go anywhere you know of or have been etc. That ability sounds better than a floating point and better than a fixed point so... it should cost more.

 

or do you handwave the floating and fixed point costs too?

 

Actually, it's never been an issue since no one's ever bothered to buy one. Could be a lot more useful with megascale, I'll grant.

 

Well, if you mean the bought without the +1/4 scale down, so he can only teleport 100km period, then i would say thats a great example of a deliberately built-to-fail power as we cannot usually see 100km.

 

Just like i can buy N-ray vision (cannot see thru air) and effectively have that sense be blinded almost all the time.

 

if the power were bought sensibly, as the same power +1/4 scalable, then he could use it for long range teleports wherever he could see and then some blind teleports.

 

So it's basically your contention that megascale at higher levels is never intended to be purchased without either Scalable or enhanced senses. I wonder why Scalable wouldn't be built in to the price, that being the case.

 

but simply put, "Percieving where you are going" HERO 5er pg 264 describes the issues of using megamovement in general without some special sensory power and recommends using some form of megascaled targetting sense or you run into problems of, well, running into things.

 

So, following those guidelines, someone with mega running 2ould need to pay points for a megasense to see where e is going or risk getting pancaked.

 

I don't see a compelling reason to charge the runner for it and let the teleporter get a pass on the cost for his megascaled movement by handwaving it.

 

or do you handwave the sensory needs for all the other megascaled senses for movements too?

 

By the same logic that paying points to buy the power means that power should have some use, then I would similarly handwave the need to acquire an enhanced sense to be permitted any benefit whatsoeever from an ability you paid points for, yes.

 

Now, if you want to be able to perceive all those people you pass by, and eavesdrop on their conversations, use of Megascale Perception would seem to be in order. [ASIDE: Given we have Megascale perception, is there any further need for Clairsentience which is neither precognitive nor retrocognitive?]

 

Again' date=' if bought reasonably it is a useful power. It can be bought to be useless, like say buying NND Eb with the common defense being "has body", but you don't have to. One could buy megascale running and have such a high risk of slamming into objects that it was life threatening... but thats why he buys the sense for it to. [/quote']

 

None of your "bought useless" powers require any added point expenditure to be made useful. They are merely examples of how someone working hard to do so can create a useless power.

[tesuji]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

 

Your issue here is in allowing the base teleport to be 1".

I suppose if I'm going to allow that,

Wasn't your example the one with 1" teleport megascale in the first place? If you aren't fond of allowing 1" megascale, then why use that example?

I think you costed that MS Sense at about 12 points, so that's 18 in aggregate. My character will just buy the construct you list above Usable as an Attack (+1), at range (+1/2), Line of Sight (+1/2), 1 hex Accurate (+1/2), 0 END (+1), Autofire (+1 1/2 - however many shots that is) for 14 points. May as well put the two Teleports in a Multipower, I suppose. If we're not going to be reasonable on the Transport Self power, no sense being reasonable on the Transport Others power either.

Now, it seems to me you have definitely changed your mind about this being a non-combat effect power we are looking at, moving well beyond some FX for "getting to the fight".

 

Are you suggesting you would also handwave the cost for the attack power you just described?

I'd say the 14 point "move others" power is a lot more useful than the 18 points for "move self", but there you go.

I tend to agree and wouldn't handwave either cost.

Actually, it's never been an issue since no one's ever bothered to buy one. Could be a lot more useful with megascale, I'll grant.

interesting... most teleporters in my games bought at least 1-2 fixed or floatings. Then again, i never told them they could pop worldwide for free.

I defintely would expect worldwide for free to make floating and fixeds look less useful.

 

So it's basically your contention that megascale at higher levels is never intended to be purchased without either Scalable or enhanced senses. I wonder why Scalable wouldn't be built in to the price, that being the case.

Why not built in? because not all levels of megascale movement need it.

 

Actually, its not my contention, its multiple paragraphs about how you need mega senses right there in the 5er megascale movement rules that i am citing. Its consistent with the normal HERo rules for effects that are not universalloy applicable to the power to be individually added. megascale at lower levels can function fine without special senses. At higher levels they are HELPFUL and maybe even necessary in a practical sense. Sure, you can TRY to run with the risks or teleport blind or shoot at a target in the next xontinent without seeing him... but its unlikely you will be too successful.

 

If someone wanted a missile that had intercontinental range, bought as a mega range attack, would you handwave away their need to percieve their target, give them "find targets in France from NY" for free? Ok, maybe France, but what about say Denmark?

 

By the same logic that paying points to buy the power means that power should have some use, then I would similarly handwave the need to acquire an enhanced sense to be permitted any benefit whatsoeever from an ability you paid points for, yes.

So i get free intercontinental targetting sense if i buy a megarange EB that can reach that far?

 

Of course, one can house rule anything so thats no problem here. But if you ever wondered why no teleporter ever bought fixed or floating points in your games... this might be a clue.

 

Now, if you want to be able to perceive all those people you pass by, and eavesdrop on their conversations, use of Megascale Perception would seem to be in order. [ASIDE: Given we have Megascale perception, is there any further need for Clairsentience which is neither precognitive nor retrocognitive?]

Actually, during the nanojiffy you are zipping by someone, i doubt there would be much conversation worth hearing. :-)

 

None of your "bought useless" powers require any added point expenditure to be made useful. They are merely examples of how someone working hard to do so can create a useless power.

 

1" teleport megascaled to 100000 km non-scalable.. IE your example plus a level or two... without lifesupport... that could be rather messy, that whole pop into space thing.

 

Yes my examples are contrived, just as yours was.

 

I don't have a problem requiring about the cost of 3 floating points for "anywhere in the world" teleport sense. I don't have a problem requiring senses as described in HERO 5er for megamovement either.

 

Certainly, house ruling all those costs away is within a GMs purview, but for me, that just makes the large scale megascales too good a deal. So the rules as presented make some sense to me and seem consistent especially in teleport with the floating and fixed costs.

 

YMMV and clearly does.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

Wasn't your example the one with 1" teleport megascale in the first place? If you aren't fond of allowing 1" megascale' date=' then why use that example?[/quote']

 

No, actually, it wasn't my example. The first I recall seeing it (but likely not the first time it's been mentioned) was your post about costing 6 points.

 

Now, it seems to me you have definitely changed your mind about this being a non-combat effect power we are looking at, moving well beyond some FX for "getting to the fight".

 

Are you suggesting you would also handwave the cost for the attack power you just described?

 

No, I am describing the cost of an alternative power, far more unbalancing, and comparing it to your example power. Both use 1" teleport and large amounts of Megascale to achieve a powerful effect very cheaply. The one which allows world travel costs, if we require the special sense, 18 points, and the one which allows me to send anyone into outer space costs 14 points. Note that I don't need the sensory ability for "Send him to the cornfield" in any case - I don't care precisely where in outer space he ends up. I don't need scalable either, since I'm not going to want the target any closer.

 

I tend to agree and wouldn't handwave either cost.

 

But I'm not paying the cost for a "send them away" ability, only a "personal transport" ability. There's nothing to handwave on the latter - I'll blind teleport him 1" straight up.

 

interesting... most teleporters in my games bought at least 1-2 fixed or floatings. Then again' date=' i never told them they could pop worldwide for free. I defintely would expect worldwide for free to make floating and fixeds look less useful.[/quote']

 

This would depend on scale. We also haven't had a large scale (megascale or large NCM) teleporter, and with a maximum range under 1km, fixed locations aren't nearly as valuable.

 

BTW, don't you get to go to the hex of the fixed location? With your 1" scalable Tport, that means you land anywhere in the hex, which is anywhere in the world. A stupid result, of course, but you need to handwave this, just as I need to handwave the requirement for megascale senses. And my handwave fixes all forms of megascale movement, where yours deals only with Teleport.

 

Actually' date=' its not my contention, its multiple paragraphs about how you need mega senses right there in the 5er megascale movement rules that i am citing. [/quote']

 

I'm not arguing whether this IS the rule. I'm arguing whether the rule is APPROPRIATE. There is a difference.

 

Its consistent with the normal HERo rules for effects that are not universalloy applicable to the power to be individually added. megascale at lower levels can function fine without special senses. At higher levels they are HELPFUL and maybe even necessary in a practical sense. Sure' date=' you can TRY to run with the risks or teleport blind or shoot at a target in the next continent without seeing him... but its unlikely you will be too successful.[/quote']

 

Again, I come back to the discrepancy that an ADVANTAGE on the power makes it LESS USEFUL (or down to useless) without a further power being purchased. This should not be the case, in my opinion. Neither should the ability to arrive at the right point be more costly than the underlying transport ability, again IMO.

 

If someone wanted a missile that had intercontinental range, bought as a mega range attack, would you handwave away their need to percieve their target, give them "find targets in France from NY" for free? Ok, maybe France, but what about say Denmark?

 

So i get free intercontinental targetting sense if i buy a megarange EB that can reach that far?

 

I did have to think about this one - it's a good analogy. To reasonably equalize this with my Megascale movement not requiring a targetting sense to actually get where you're going, I would say that you can fire your intercontinental missile at a location, but not at a person at that location. That is, you can readily determine where the Eiffel Tower is through mundane means, thus you can Teleport there, or fly there, without need for Megascale Senses (assuming you have the MS movement to get there). Similarly, you can fire your MS EB targetting the Eiffel Tower.

 

You cannot, however, target Pierre the Baker, because you have no ready means of determining where Pierre may be. Neither can you Teleport to Pierre the Baker. Phone him and tell him you will meet him at the Eiffel Tower.

 

Actually' date=' during the nanojiffy you are zipping by someone, i doubt there would be much conversation worth hearing. :-)

 

Scientifically, I agree. Source material, I do not. Ruleswise, I have to disagree as well, since speaking takes no time and is thus less than the nanojiffy in which you speed by. Rubber science? Sure. So is megascale movement, especially for an individual.

 

1" teleport megascaled to 100000 km non-scalable.. IE your example plus a level or two... without lifesupport... that could be rather messy' date=' that whole pop into space thing.[/quote']

 

The issue here is that you have purchased a movement power inappropriate to the game. If, in my game, the world is a flat surface 1 million km across, the power is useful. But, frankly, 1" of movement, however megascaled, shouldn't be very useful. You do get what you pay for, after all.

 

I don't have a problem requiring about the cost of 3 floating points for "anywhere in the world" teleport sense. I don't have a problem requiring senses as described in HERO 5er for megamovement either.

 

That's the crux. Your price is probably equitable (maybe even cheap) if we assume it's reasonable to require a further expenditure of points for the privilege of using the ability you already paid points for.

 

As to whether large scale Megascale is a good deal, it depends on the in-game effect. Does it actually do anything besides remove the need for the GM to write in a way for you to get to the scenario location? If my scenario relies on it taking a long time to get to France, I probably didn't allow megascale T port anyway - at any price.

[tesuji]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

 

No, actually, it wasn't my example. The first I recall seeing it (but likely not the first time it's been mentioned) was your post about costing 6 points.

I suspected you weren't reading posts before replying. now i have proof! :-)

 

About a half inch above the section about my 6 cp power is where i quoted you asking me about a 1" = 1 Km teleport power and what it would cost.

 

No, I am describing the cost of an alternative power, far more unbalancing, and comparing it to your example power.

there are tons of abusive powers that can be created using the system. Their presence does not mean non-abusive powers should have their cost reduced by handwaving away requirements.

 

So, just because there is an abusive powert that costs 14 cp. it really doesn't say "this megascale teleport anywhere thing is overpriced at 21 total cp." It just says "hey, this abusive power... it probably shouldn't be allowed."

 

But thats my way of thinkin' which might be different than yours.

 

But, for consistency, did you handwave the vost of 12d6 EB after someone posted any of the numberous "destroy the world in 20 cp" examples? Did you handwave down every offensive power that stops short of destroying the world? or did you just disallow those abusive powers?

 

If it was the latter, why forget all that now for the teleport argument?

BTW, don't you get to go to the hex of the fixed location? With your 1" scalable Tport, that means you land anywhere in the hex, which is anywhere in the world. A stupid result, of course, but you need to handwave this, just as I need to handwave the requirement for megascale senses. And my handwave fixes all forms of megascale movement, where yours deals only with Teleport.

teleport lists several different descriptions and onlyrequires it be a physical location. there is nothing requiring it to be a minimum sized megahex and numerous writeups haven't presented it that way. Megascale transporters for starships wouldn't do so well if they missed by the hex.

I'm not arguing whether this IS the rule. I'm arguing whether the rule is APPROPRIATE. There is a difference.

of course. But when one starts talking about the non-book rule, i usually find it helpful not to reference it as "the other poster" but as the "book rule." Thats all i was saying. It almost sounded like you were referencing myine as a house rule... that you need a sense to spot where you are going... and that can be confusing to some.

 

the house rule here is handwaving the need to buy a sense to travel further than your senses can detect.

Again, I come back to the discrepancy that an ADVANTAGE on the power makes it LESS USEFUL (or down to useless) without a further power being purchased. This should not be the case, in my opinion. Neither should the ability to arrive at the right point be more costly than the underlying transport ability, again IMO.

and while nice opinions they are, they are just different ones than the book recommends, which is fine. I am certainly not a by-the-book guy myself.

 

the rule requiring you to be able to percieve at the distances and speeds of travel makes SENSE to me.

 

If i buy a rocket launcher with no range modifier and extra range using the +1/4 for extra range non-megascale... i don't expect my Gm to give me long range perception for free.

 

If i buy a missile with good indirect or transdimensional capability, I don't expect my Gm to give me free looksee thru the building or into the other dimension for free.

 

Note that all of those are advantages applied to powers, similar to what ou are describing.

 

I did have to think about this one - it's a good analogy. To reasonably equalize this with my Megascale movement not requiring a targetting sense to actually get where you're going, I would say that you can fire your intercontinental missile at a location, but not at a person at that location. That is, you can readily determine where the Eiffel Tower is through mundane means, thus you can Teleport there, or fly there, without need for Megascale Senses (assuming you have the MS movement to get there). Similarly, you can fire your MS EB targetting the Eiffel Tower.

Sounds like an interesting extension to reconcile a house rules possible contradictions.

 

Me, by just requiring the senses and applying the normal "cannot see where" rules... i avoid having to define this exception/addition.

 

if you are happier with this tho, thats cool.

Scientifically, I agree. Source material, I do not. Ruleswise, I have to disagree as well, since speaking takes no time and is thus less than the nanojiffy in which you speed by. Rubber science? Sure. So is megascale movement, especially for an individual.

rubber science?

 

As for rules... talking takes NO ACTIONS. WHich is not the same as NO TIME.

 

But yeah, if in your games i can overhear conversations when i run past even though there wasn't time enough passing for the words to be said... thats a definte case where your games are different than mine.

 

In all my years of supero Gming, i haven't ever had anyone even presume to suggest they get earfulls of conversation while flyinf past something at high speeds. So i really got no need to add house rules to make that happen.

 

The issue here is that you have purchased a movement power inappropriate to the game. If, in my game, the world is a flat surface 1 million km across, the power is useful. But, frankly, 1" of movement, however megascaled, shouldn't be very useful. You do get what you pay for, after all.

Hnestly, i can see "pop to space then pop back toearth" as appropriate even if weird... for example there might be a base or ship out there with a transporter, but you do need other points spent to make it handy... like a fixed point for the base and/or space LS.

 

That's the crux. Your price is probably equitable (maybe even cheap) if we assume it's reasonable to require a further expenditure of points for the privilege of using the ability you already paid points for.

if i buy desolid and can pass thru walls and stone, i can get more from it if i take additional powers like life support or n-ray vision.

 

if i buy the cheap megascale teleport, at the higher ranges, without scaling, I dont get a lot out of that cheap power, the ability to pop vertical and back as you describe.

 

If i buy more stuff that helps it... fixed points, scalable, find where i am going sense then the price gos up but so does the versatility.

 

I really don't have problems with that.

 

Sure, they could have built two megascales, one with free sense for the high end and one with no sense for low end, but this is HERO and the notion of adding on the elements you want is pretty ingrained.

 

and, again, as long as you choose scalable which practically every teleporter i have seen adds on to his megascale, it ceases to be a problem.

 

 

As to whether large scale Megascale is a good deal, it depends on the in-game effect. Does it actually do anything besides remove the need for the GM to write in a way for you to get to the scenario location? If my scenario relies on it taking a long time to get to France, I probably didn't allow megascale T port anyway - at any price.

 

I guess your games are different than mine.

 

In my games, the ability to go wordwide or country wide plays a role. its not just the explanation for "and here we are at the start of the fight" but its a resource thing. If i have megascale then when out of town my home base is never more than a few seconds away. That matters for access to the resources there. If mation-wide is my steppin' out distance, I can rush off to catch hero so-n-so and bring them in, making my access to contacts and such and cashing in favors a lot easier and timely.

 

Heck, if i want to, i can make money fr priority shipments, "when it absolutely positively has to be there in 12 seconds" as my line of work.

 

Now, I have seen and once played one session in a supers game run using HERo where each evening session started with "and the fight begins" where, and I mean this literally, they said "we used to start with you in your secret ID and the call went out, but we decided the time wasted on getting to the fight was better spent fighting so we just start with "you arrive at the fight."

 

thats just not the gamei run.

 

But it really boils down to this for me...

 

if someone wants to buy a transdimensional attack, paying for indirect and transdimensional and so laying out maybe 60 cp extra for this, I am not gonna give them transdimensional senses for free.

 

If someone buys +3/4 indirect and long range and no range mod for their guided missile, laying out maybe 60 extra cp for this, I ain't gonna handwave the "see your at long distance or thru buildings" cost either.

 

If a guy buys desolid at 0 end i ain't gonna handwave LS not need to breath or n-ray vision to see thru walls so he can stay in solid object as long as 0 end would allow.

 

Those are "no handwaves" for serious outlays of points.

 

So, i wont handwave the other sense costs for the cheapo bargain basement teleport to avoid having to pay some 12-17 points for his special senses to get the most out of his powers either. I won't reward his deciding to not take 1 pt ficed points or extra +1/4 for scalable by letting him hold me up with "but if i don't get free senses i have so crippled the power by my choices it will be useless" to get free senses.

 

Paying less *by choice* should not get you more free stuff.

 

If i were inclined to handwave costs for these, the urge would start at the guys who paid a lot for their extra stuff... not the cheapie guy.

 

YMMV... and thats cool.

We run extremely different games... or you argue things you wouldn't run that way.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

I suspected you weren't reading posts before replying. now i have proof! :-)

 

About a half inch above the section about my 6 cp power is where i quoted you asking me about a 1" = 1 Km teleport power and what it would cost.

 

Well, at least I see the miscommunication now. I didn't spell it out clearly enough. My question was intended to mean what do you charge for making a teleport be 1,000km per inch, rather than 2 meters per inch, but was not intended to be taken as simply buying 1" Teleport, Megascale, Scalable with the argument I could then go anywhere within that 1" Megascaled hex.

 

there are tons of abusive powers that can be created using the system. Their presence does not mean non-abusive powers should have their cost reduced by handwaving away requirements.

 

One of those abusive powers is "6 points - transport anywhere on earth". I'm not convinced your 18 point version is an improvement, however, nor an I convinced that Megascale is made "more balanced" by requiring a 12 point (or whatever point) superSense to be permitted to make any use other than suicide viable for it.

 

Returning to your EB example, should this ability to target someone anywhere on earth cost the same amount whether the attack itself is 1/2 d6 or 150d6, or would it appropriately vary with the cost, and power, of the attack?

 

So' date=' just because there is an abusive powert that costs 14 cp. it really doesn't say "this megascale teleport anywhere thing is overpriced at 21 total cp." It just says "hey, this abusive power... it probably shouldn't be allowed."[/quote']

 

Which I say in regard to your "1" scalable = teleport anywhere on earth for 6 points" construct. If I allowed that (and I would not), the UAA power is hardly a stretch to follow it.

 

But' date=' for consistency, did you handwave the vost of 12d6 EB after someone posted any of the numberous "destroy the world in 20 cp" examples? Did you handwave down every offensive power that stops short of destroying the world? or did you just disallow those abusive powers?[/quote']

 

But I don't find a megascale teleport purchased reasonably (ie not "buy 1" and go anywhere within that 1") to be abusive, so I don't see a need for a "see your target tax" to be appended to it.

 

the house rule here is handwaving the need to buy a sense to travel further than your senses can detect.

 

Absolutely

 

the rule requiring you to be able to percieve at the distances and speeds of travel makes SENSE to me.

 

As I said earlier, I agree it makes logical and scientific sense. I do not agree it makes game sense, or source material sense.

 

As for rules... talking takes NO ACTIONS. WHich is not the same as NO TIME.

 

Try repeating a typical Supers interchange in the 2 seconds or so that passes while each of the hero and the villain takes an action. "No actions" is pretty close to "no time" in that particular genre.

 

But yeah' date=' if in your games i can overhear conversations when i run past even though there wasn't time enough passing for the words to be said... thats a definte case where your games are different than mine.[/quote']

 

Again, source material. Most characters cannot. A very few can. Sight is a more common example - if you have Megascale Running, you can certainly run up and down every street in a metropolitan centre in a phase. But it takes something more to have now searched evrey building and located the bomb hidden there by the villain. ["Found it - what's this about a riddle?"]

 

Hnestly' date=' i can see "pop to space then pop back toearth" as appropriate even if weird... for example there might be a base or ship out there with a transporter, but you do need other points spent to make it handy... like a fixed point for the base and/or space LS.[/quote']

 

or I call it SFX for my own megascale teleport if the base/ship never does anything else. Otherwise, may as well take the Base/Vehicle discount on my transporter [that gets us down to 1 point, or 3 with the MegaSense, although I have to pay for the rest of the vehicle next]

 

if i buy desolid and can pass thru walls and stone' date=' i can get more from it if i take additional powers like life support or n-ray vision.[/quote']

 

But you do still get benefits well beyond "easy suicide approach" from having the power, even without added extras.

 

In my games' date=' the ability to go wordwide or country wide plays a role. its not just the explanation for "and here we are at the start of the fight" but its a resource thing. If i have megascale then when out of town my home base is never more than a few seconds away. That matters for access to the resources there. If mation-wide is my steppin' out distance, I can rush off to catch hero so-n-so and bring them in, making my access to contacts and such and cashing in favors a lot easier and timely.[/quote']

 

I suppose if there are no telephones, this makes a lot of difference. Or if you have lots of equipment that almost never leaves the base, but I'm not giving you a limitation for that if you can teleport it to you (cost NIL - SFX) so why should I charge you (beyond removing the limitation) if you can teleport to go and get it?

 

But the bottom line is that you should get value commensurate to the points laid out.

 

Heck' date=' if i want to, i can make money fr priority shipments, "when it absolutely positively has to be there in 12 seconds" as my line of work.[/quote']

 

Or you can write in your background that you're filthy stinking rich. Both require only the Wealth perk.

 

if someone wants to buy a transdimensional attack' date=' paying for indirect and transdimensional and so laying out maybe 60 cp extra for this, I am not gonna give them transdimensional senses for free.[/quote']

 

Good. Can they target the same location they targeted last time without that targeting sense? What if they have an AK of that adjacent dimension, and a KS: Transdimensional portals? As I said, targetting a place is a lot easier than targetting something that moves around.

 

If someone buys +3/4 indirect and long range and no range mod for their guided missile' date=' laying out maybe 60 extra cp for this, I ain't gonna handwave the "see your at long distance or thru buildings" cost either.[/quote']

 

I would suggest he can still have a pretty good idea where the Statue of Liberty is when he's spent a few days in NY figuring out where to shoot from.

[The Souljourner]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

I would suggest he can still have a pretty good idea where the Statue of Liberty is when he's spent a few days in NY figuring out where to shoot from.

 

I know where the statue of liberty is... doesn't mean I could hit it from Boston with a missile that'll go perfectly straight in the direction I fire. Hell, I think I'd be lucky to hit New York City, let alone the Statue itself.

 

Ok, try this... take a tin can and a BB gun into a completely dark room. Put the can on one side of the room, walk around the room twice and stop at the other side of the room, turn, and try to shoot the can. I bet you miss (unless you have really really good spacial sense).

 

And that's 10' across a room. If you're off by a half a degree, you might still hit. If I'm off half a degree when I shoot at the Statue of Liberty, I'll probably hit Delaware.

 

Yes, it's annoying that megascale can be somewhat less than useful without other powers. Oh well. You're getting a godawful hugely awesome ability for a tiny outlay of points. Suck it up. Remember before Megascale, when you just had to buy tons and tons of noncombat movement? Yeah, those were the days.

 

-Nate

[tesuji]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

 

One of those abusive powers is "6 points - transport anywhere on earth".

 

Which, apparently, is a power NEITHER of us would allow. So its not an issue at all. right?

 

I'm not convinced your 18 point version is an improvement, however, nor an I convinced that Megascale is made "more balanced" by requiring a 12 point (or whatever point) superSense to be permitted to make any use other than suicide viable for it.

Well, its like this...

At 3 cp the megascale teleport is of very little use.

At say around 20 odd cp buying the "anywhere sense" it becomes useful as a long range movement power.

price increase = more effective.

 

I don't see it as LESS balanced.

 

You may?

 

Returning to your EB example, should this ability to target someone anywhere on earth cost the same amount whether the attack itself is 1/2 d6 or 150d6, or would it appropriately vary with the cost, and power, of the attack?

Hero does not normally link "chance to hit" adjusters like say OCV bonuses and penalties directly to attack cost. if i buy +5 OCV with my 10d6 firebolt it costs 10 cp just like buying it on my 2d6 sparkler.

 

On the other hand, the ability to use it at further ranges IS linked to power of attack, and thats why megascale and increased rnage is an advantage, nt an adder.

 

So, really, you have two increases by the book approach... one with the senses (flat cost) and one with the attack (scaled.)

 

Similarly, if i buy a night vision scope for my pistol, it costs the SAME, regardless of whether my pistol does 1 pip rka dart or 4d6 RKA bullet.

 

If my meson beam is indirect, the n-ray vision i have to see thru walls is a flat cost, not dependent on whether my meson burst is 1d6 RKA, 4d6 RKA or whatever.

 

Can i stop now?

 

Which I say in regard to your "1" scalable = teleport anywhere on earth for 6 points" construct. If I allowed that (and I would not), the UAA power is hardly a stretch to follow it.

OK! I would not allow 6 cp megascale anywher eon earth either., I would require you to buy appropriate senses. that brings it up to around 20ish cp give or take 5.

But I don't find a megascale teleport purchased reasonably (ie not "buy 1" and go anywhere within that 1") to be abusive, so I don't see a need for a "see your target tax" to be appended to it.

its not "my" tax. I do see reason and consistency in the book's requirement.

 

As I said earlier, I agree it makes logical and scientific sense. I do not agree it makes game sense, or source material sense.

hasn't been an issue ever in any game i ran. no one ever asked for me to let them overhear an entire conversation or such while they zipped by someone.

 

it would be an interesting SFX, to be sure.

 

if thats how your games work in practice, thats cool and to me unusual, but probably fun.

Try repeating a typical Supers interchange in the 2 seconds or so that passes while each of the hero and the villain takes an action. "No actions" is pretty close to "no time" in that particular genre.

time for speech is fudged for fun and dramatic effect, allowing the long soliloquies common in the source materials, the whole comic book panel" effect.

 

thats a far different animal than trying to extend/abuse the thing to turn it into benefit.

 

I wouldn't let the team soliloquy tactics discussions, specific tactical info, and the like nor would i allow them to "anti-soliloquy to get otuher people's convesations done quickly.

 

if thats how it works in your games, thats cool.

 

Somehow, I get the feeling it isn't. Just like you wouldn't allow the 1" teleport but have no problem arguing it for your argument's sake.

 

Again, source material. Most characters cannot. A very few can. Sight is a more common example - if you have Megascale Running, you can certainly run up and down every street in a metropolitan centre in a phase. But it takes something more to have now searched evrey building and located the bomb hidden there by the villain. ["Found it - what's this about a riddle?"]

uhhh... huh. you are making my point. The super senses allows you to do the running by, but not hear in detail the conversations (as in your example, search.)

or I call it SFX for my own megascale teleport if the base/ship never does anything else. Otherwise, may as well take the Base/Vehicle discount on my transporter [that gets us down to 1 point, or 3 with the MegaSense, although I have to pay for the rest of the vehicle next]

you also wind up with teleport usable on others yahdee. since you are including teleport TO THE BASE as an option. It gets complicated. But, no matter what, points are being paid and more points gets you more effect. So, whats the problem?

 

You get discount for base because... it will have base like problems. Same as if you tagged on more limitations.

 

But you do still get benefits well beyond "easy suicide approach" from having the power, even without added extras.

and a 6 cp teleport is still worth something too, particularly if you make it scalable as part of that 6 cp so you can use it for, say, 1km-20km ranges where you might be able to see your target. At 1-10 km jumps, rooftop to rooftop, you get pretty good travel times.

 

I suppose if there are no telephones, this makes a lot of difference. Or if you have lots of equipment that almost never leaves the base, but I'm not giving you a limitation for that if you can teleport it to you (cost NIL - SFX) so why should I charge you (beyond removing the limitation) if you can teleport to go and get it?

as for base... i was thinking labs and libraries mostly. Maybe things like autodocs for healing. etc. YES the stuff you boguht and put in the base at 5/1 that teleport allows you to zip back and forth to if its "anywhere on planet."

 

Now, of course, you could get SOME of this benefit by taking a fixed point "our base" and a floating point you set on demand (takes some time iirc) so you can do it, but thats still about half the points of my sense and less useful.

 

As for your denying lims, thats cool, you are tagging your costs elsewhere that you handwaved, but thats definitely one way to do it.

 

But the bottom line is that you should get value commensurate to the points laid out.

with the understanding that there are ways within the system to make builds where that doesn't happen.

 

If i build a mentalist with 15d6 mental powers but a 3 ego so my ECV sucks... i WONT get the full value out of my major investment in mental powers.

 

Similarly, if i build transdimensional attacks without transdimensional targetting, i wont get the full value of ou my investment.

 

similarly, if i buy teleport farther than i can see and don't buy senses to target where i want to go, i wont get the full use out of my teleport.

 

Good. Can they target the same location they targeted last time without that targeting sense? What if they have an AK of that adjacent dimension, and a KS: Transdimensional portals? As I said, targetting a place is a lot easier than targetting something that moves around.

why are you assuming this is a versus a place" attack?

 

answering your question, if they have a targetting sense that sees the target, they target normally.

if they have a non-targetting sense that does so, they target using those rules.

if they have no senses to percieve their target, they fire blind.

Ak and such might be substituted for the non-targetting per roll but i would only allow it if they had something else to reference they can perceive for a point of reference.

 

I would suggest he can still have a pretty good idea where the Statue of Liberty is when he's spent a few days in NY figuring out where to shoot from.

 

I might allow AK new york to be used as the non-targetting per roll, but the real reason it hits is the size he is shooting at

[prestidigitator]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

Eh. An appropriate level of MegaScale and the Safe Blind Teleport Adder pretty much do it for me if the character is familiar with the destination (and maybe provided the character has a reasonable idea of where they are now, so it doesn't become an, "I'm lost; time to reset," type power). There isn't much else you are going to use the power for, so requiring extra powers is a little harsh.

 

Of course, Safe Blind Teleport only guarantees you aren't going to land in the middle of something. It doesn't mean you aren't going to teleport right in front of a speeding bus, or that you don't have enemies waiting to ambush you, or.... For that stuff, Clairsentience is probably a good idea, and I just about always allow a Floating Location to be placed via Clairsentience.

 

How to fix it in games where the GM rules differently? Eh...best to ask that GM, not me.

[Sunday_Gamer]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

Whew... looks like I started a poop storm

The GM will allow no Mega Scale beyong 1"=1000km so buying the 1" teleport wouldn't work for me. However, in reading this thread and backed by much evidence of its use in various source books, he has caved on the ability to set floating locations through Clairsentience.

 

Victory in mine!

 

Thanks for your input, much obliged.

[Robyn]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

so it doesn't become an' date=' "I'm lost; time to reset," type power). There isn't much [i']else[/i] you are going to use the power for, so requiring extra powers is a little harsh.

 

Of course, Safe Blind Teleport only guarantees you aren't going to land in the middle of something. It doesn't mean you aren't going to teleport right in front of a speeding bus,

 

I'd discourage "panic button" teleports by having the END come back more and more slowly every time you used it, and requiring a roll for the level of usefulness your new location had (line of sight to other locations, ability to travel from it without teleport, and, of course, danger), that incurred a -1 penalty every time you teleported. Eventually, either the increasing levels of danger would take care of them, or they'd give up on anything better and stop trying.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

Yes' date=' it's annoying that megascale can be somewhat less than useful without other powers. Oh well. You're getting a godawful hugely awesome ability for a tiny outlay of points. Suck it up. Remember before Megascale, when you just had to buy tons and tons of noncombat movement? Yeah, those were the days.[/quote']

 

Certainly remember it. Was it that tough to deal with? Not really...

 

Multipower: 60 base

 

u 30" Flight (or running, or whatever)

u 5" Flight, x1,024 noncombat

 

That second slot makes each 1" distance 2km in noncombat, so 10 km per phase. Assuming I wanted the combat movement anyway, it cost me 12 points.

 

With another 12 points I could spend on "Hey - I can actually USE my Megascale Movement", I could instead buy another 2 noncombat multiples, so now I'm up to 40 km per phase. Not quite an instantaneous as, say, x1 million NCM, but I get to land in whatever hex I want and not worry about trees.

 

Sure, I could have:

 

Multipower: 60 base

 

u 30" Flight (or running, or whatever)

u 5" Flight, +5 Scalable Megascale

 

now, but really, how fast do you need to be? How often does Megascale grant you a huge advantage?

 

Are you, as GM, going to set a scenario in Tokyo, when the PC's are in NYC, and then say "Oh, too bad - by the time you got there it was all over" if no one has megascale movement?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

OK! I would not allow 6 cp megascale anywher eon earth either.' date=' I would require you to buy appropriate senses. that brings it up to around 20ish cp give or take 5.[/quote']

 

So if I take that 1" Teleport with its +2 advantages, make it UAA (+1), Line of Sight (+1/2), 1 hex area accurate (+1/2), and don't buy the sense, that's OK too, right? hey, I paid my 9 points.

 

Of course it isn't. But I would not allow the 1" teleport "anywhere on earth" with or without the enhanced sense, so there's no dichotomy that I reject it in other forms.

 

Somehow' date=' I get the feeling it isn't. Just like you wouldn't allow the 1" teleport but have no problem arguing it for your argument's sake.[/quote']

 

Excuse me? You are the one arguing the fact that one can purchase that 1" anywhere on earth T Port for 6 points makes the enhanced sense addon a necessity. If neither of us would allow the power, why do we need an addon power to make it more expensive??

 

why are you assuming this is a versus a place" attack?

 

I'm not. I AM saying that, just like I would let you MS teleport to a place if you knew where it was, I would let you fire off a MS shot at that location. But I would not let you target a specific person there (to arrive behind him or hit with your shot) unless you could actually perceive whether that person was there. And if you Teleport to the Statue of Liberty's torch and Grond ripped it off last week, you're going to take some falling damage. If you have a Targetting sense to see it before you go there, you may decide to 'port somewhere more stable.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

Eh. An appropriate level of MegaScale and the Safe Blind Teleport Adder pretty much do it for me if the character is familiar with the destination (and maybe provided the character has a reasonable idea of where they are now' date=' so it doesn't become an, "I'm lost; time to reset," type power). There isn't much [i']else[/i] you are going to use the power for, so requiring extra powers is a little harsh.

 

BINGO!!

[tesuji]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

 

So if I take that 1" Teleport with its +2 advantages, make it UAA (+1), Line of Sight (+1/2), 1 hex area accurate (+1/2), and don't buy the sense, that's OK too, right? hey, I paid my 9 points.

no, permitting megascale movement doesn't mean i am committing to allow UAA movement powers. Why would you think it did?

Of course it isn't. But I would not allow the 1" teleport "anywhere on earth" with or without the enhanced sense, so there's no dichotomy that I reject it in other forms.

I would allow the teleport anywhere if you bought the appropriate senses.

 

BTW, as a question out of curiousity, if in a game a player asked you to write up the teleport anywhere power, what price would you put it at? You seem to be dismissing it as a not too important power, a "get to the fight" SFX kind of thing, So I wonder how muc more or less than my 15-25 cosy yours would be.

 

How far off my cost/the book cost which you clearly disagree with is your version?

 

Excuse me? You are the one arguing the fact that one can purchase that 1" anywhere on earth T Port for 6 points makes the enhanced sense addon a necessity.

No, i am arguing that the cost for teleporting anywhere is arrived at by buying the teleport rnage and the senses to make it possible. the 6 cp power isn't at all a "teleport anywhere on earth" power. It doesn't become that until you can sense it to land where you want.

 

If neither of us would allow the power, why do we need an addon power to make it more expensive??

I would allow the 1" teleport in the game, its not particularly effective at the 100km non-scalable.

 

But if you want it scalable, it becomes more effective.

 

As for your apparent terror over allowing a 1" megascale teleport...

 

1" megascale teleport +1/;4 scalable down to 1km, +1.25 for up to 10000 km hex = 5 cp.

 

or

 

a multipower slot on 10" teleport, scalable, +1 for up to 1000km hex = 45 ap = 4 in a multipower slot.

 

So, if you force your players to buy say 10" minimum cost of teleport, wont they just multipower slot that cost increase away, giving them the free teleport anywhere and a less than 10 cp cost?

 

didn't you bring up multipower slots a while back?

 

At least with the book method, the "enhanced senses" wont normally be bought off in the multipower, as thats one of those "no, unless GM permission" things.

 

I'm not. I AM saying that, just like I would let you MS teleport to a place if you knew where it was, I would let you fire off a MS shot at that location. But I would not let you target a specific person there (to arrive behind him or hit with your shot) unless you could actually perceive whether that person was there. And if you Teleport to the Statue of Liberty's torch and Grond ripped it off last week, you're going to take some falling damage. If you have a Targetting sense to see it before you go there, you may decide to 'port somewhere more stable.

 

So, I can get an attack with free senses but it cannot effectively be used to attack my enemies, unless my enemies are typically "places" ratyher than "people".

 

But i can get teleport with the senses for free and go to places, which is usually what teleport does.

 

and you think those two handwaves and effectivneess judgements are consistent?

 

Seems to me the megascale attack while costing a lot more points, isn't all that effective.

 

but then, I could be wrong. Perhaps enemy places are a prime feature in your campaigns.

 

Just another difference in our games.

[radioKAOS]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

snip!

Are you, as GM, going to set a scenario in Tokyo, when the PC's are in NYC, and then say "Oh, too bad - by the time you got there it was all over" if no one has megascale movement?

 

Too true. Repped.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

no' date=' permitting megascale movement doesn't mean i am committing to allow UAA movement powers. Why would you think it did?[/quote']

 

It simply becomes a slope. if it's an OK movement power, and if UAA is allowed in the game in general (a big if, and one outside the scope of this discussion anyway), why can the OK movement power not be an OK UAA? Actually, your satellite base example is a good one - it should have UAA, since it should be able to beam up someone who doesn't know about the satellite.

 

BTW' date=' as a question out of curiousity, if in a game a player asked you to write up the teleport anywhere power, what price would you put it at? You seem to be dismissing it as a not too important power, a "get to the fight" SFX kind of thing, So I wonder how muc more or less than my 15-25 cosy yours would be.[/quote']

 

This becomes a "whole character and context of game" issue. I suspect most movement based characters would framework it into a multipower. I don't have a big issue with that. if they're trying to play Hero like a collectible card game and find the "magic combo" that gives them vast power without restrictions at low cost, then I'm prepared to clamp down on it (eg. your example of a Teleport Anywhere power coupled with a number of abilities only accessible at a fixed location such as a base). But I'm not a big fan of raising the cost for reasonable constructs because the mechanics could be used to build something unreasonable. I'd rather allow the reasonable and clamp down on the unreasonable.

 

My disagreement is far more with the concept that "You can buy it, but all you can use it for is committing suicide" aspect the "requires an enhanced sense" issue creates for Megascale.

 

At least with the book method' date=' the "enhanced senses" wont normally be bought off in the multipower, as thats one of those "no, unless GM permission" things. [/quote']

 

And yet, as an integral component to the power, and one clearly linked to the MS Teleport, does it not make sense to treat the two as a single power, framework implications and all?

 

So, I can get an attack with free senses but it cannot effectively be used to attack my enemies, unless my enemies are typically "places" rather than "people".

 

But i can get teleport with the senses for free and go to places, which is usually what teleport does.

 

No Enhanced Sense

 

You can use MS Teleport to go to a specific place, but not a specific person. You can fire a MS energy blast at a specific place, but not a specific person.

 

Enhanced Sense

 

You can use MS Teleport to go to a specific place, and even in specific proximity to a specific person at that place (eg right behind him - SURPRISE!, or between him and his hostage). You can fire a MS energy blast at a specific place, and even at a specific person in that place (probably with surprise, since he's not expecting an attack from that range, and without risking hamr to his hostage).

 

and you think those two handwaves and effectivneess judgements are consistent?

 

Yes, based on the above I believe they are sufficiently comparable that I'm happy with the results. The ability to know the exact layout of the location you are teleporting to is a valuable one, as is the ability to target a specific person while being effectively immune from counterattack. Note that, even withthe sense, my Teleporter gains an advantage, but is not immune from retaliation when he arrives. The sniper is, absent a similar construct for the opponent (in which case why is the idiot standing out in broad daylight taking a hostage?) effectively rendered helpless.

 

but then' date=' I could be wrong. Perhaps enemy places are a prime feature in your campaigns.[/quote']

 

Well, it could be I'm the one in error. perhaps your game is chock full of interesting events happening too far away for the characters to get to them and participate in the scenario.

 

Just another difference in our games.

 

Yup. [Pictures game where GM says "It's a quiet night in Campaign City USA. There's been little going on for a week or so. The news reports say Eurostar has taken hostages at the Arc de Triomphe in Paris." PC: "Guess we better book airfare. Hopefully, this will be a standoff until we get there in a couple of days." GM: "Guess you should have bought that Megasacale Teleport and Enhanced sense." Not my game. Probably not yours. Hopefully not anyone's.]

[Robyn]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

[Pictures game where GM says "It's a quiet night in Campaign City USA. There's been little going on for a week or so. The news reports say Eurostar has taken hostages at the Arc de Triomphe in Paris." PC: "Guess we better book airfare. Hopefully' date= this will be a standoff until we get there in a couple of days." GM: "Guess you should have bought that Megasacale Teleport and Enhanced sense." Not my game. Probably not yours. Hopefully not anyone's.]

 

[i recall that, in one of McCoy's games where only myself and Son Number Two showed up, we went into the Danger Room for practice. And, after that, we got experience. I was surprised, since we hadn't faced anyone real, but it makes sense. You're practicing your teamwork and your fighting skills, and this training should result in some improvements.]

 

Player: "Let's hop into the Danger Room for a quick workout, the Megascale Teleport only costs a few points anyway. I'm sure the hostages can hold out for a few more hours."

[tesuji]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

 

It simply becomes a slope. if it's an OK movement power, and if UAA is allowed in the game in general (a big if, and one outside the scope of this discussion anyway), why can the OK movement power not be an OK UAA? Actually, your satellite base example is a good one - it should have UAA, since it should be able to beam up someone who doesn't know about the satellite.

Hugh, as you are no doubt aware, each power is approved based on its own merits, and its not a case of allowing UAA across the board in a game or disallowing UAA across the board in a game because there is a wide span of powers that can be built with UAA.

 

Anyone with half a wit of experience with HERO knows that and doesn't get sucked into "precedent" nonsense.

This becomes a "whole character and context of game" issue. I suspect most movement based characters would framework it into a multipower. I don't have a big issue with that.

does this loosely translate to... if they want to pay 50 points for teleport anywhere and slot it into their movement multipower for 5-10 expenditure, thats fine, but if they want to buy it as a 1" megascale etc and get the same effect for 5-10 cp expenditure outside of the multipower slot, well thats abusive and I will stop it"?

 

To me it doesn't come down to how the costs were arranged on the character sheet but whether the amount paid was worth the effect and vice versa.

 

Had i written %e's megamovement, it would have been an adder to the movement power increasing the non-com movement probably by x6 ot x10

the movement rate per 5 ap or somesuch so that you could get to world spanning distances with a cost reasonable to their effect.

 

The writers went with instead a cheap megascale alternative and a required senses to keep it in line. It certainly isn't IMo the most elegant approach but then they decided to lump every type of large scale under a single advantage mechanic, rather than have "attacks that hit an incredible area" be handled separately than speedsters who can run really really fast.

 

 

 

if they're trying to play Hero like a collectible card game and find the "magic combo" that gives them vast power without restrictions at low cost, then I'm prepared to clamp down on it (eg. your example of a Teleport Anywhere power coupled with a number of abilities only accessible at a fixed location such as a base).

I really gotta say, I have had such ran in my games (using the fixed and floater) and never had a problem with it. Its served as a interesting diversion from the typical ho hum OIF this or blaster that and opened up tons of hooks for me as a GNM. The base discount is an opportunity in my view for the GM, not a problem.

 

I gotta, the character who sinks a decent amount of points into his base and laods it with stuff (say 50-75 cp after the base discount) and who buys powers to get back and forth there quickly, and who works to make his base an interesting and integral part of the game, that isn't a "problem" to me or anything i would feel driven to "clamp down" on.

 

It isnb't "another blaster with a movement multipower, an attacks multipower, and a defense/misc EC" but that doesn make it a problem.

 

But I'm not a big fan of raising the cost for reasonable constructs because the mechanics could be used to build something unreasonable. I'd rather allow the reasonable and clamp down on the unreasonable.

nor am I, thats why I want to place a reasonable cost on the ability to see where you are going instead of applying a general up-price on teleport. The guy who buys a megascale that he doesn't need senses for all that much, the low end ranges, can get his "accelerator" cheaply. The guy who wants to use it for world spanning travels, then he starts to see the expense with the enhanced senses cost.

 

Both seem reasonable. Maybe not the best, mind you, but reasonable.

My disagreement is far more with the concept that "You can buy it, but all you can use it for is committing suicide" aspect the "requires an enhanced sense" issue creates for Megascale.

Well, as repeated, there are plenty of examples where one can outlay more points and not get any real benefit from them without special senses.

 

My 4d6 RKA guided missile with NRM megascale range and indirect dumps roughly 75 cp into megascale and range alone but without the ability to see people at the long ranges or to see thru buildings and such, that 75 cp isn't going to be of much use.

 

My 4d6 RKA indirect plus transdimensional also hits me up for about 60 cp and i wont see benefit from them unless I buy the ability to see into the dimension.

 

So, I don't really have a problem if someone spending 5-10 cp on a megascale teleport and cannot use it much becuase they didn't expend the related points for either scalability (1 cp at best) or senses (12-20 cp.)

 

 

No Enhanced Sense

 

You can use MS Teleport to go to a specific place, but not a specific person. You can fire a MS energy blast at a specific place, but not a specific person.

IMX 99% of NON-COMBAT teleport is done to go to a place.

Enhanced Sense

You can use MS Teleport to go to a specific place, and even in specific proximity to a specific person at that place (eg right behind him - SURPRISE!, or between him and his hostage). You can fire a MS energy blast at a specific place, and even at a specific person in that place (probably with surprise, since he's not expecting an attack from that range, and without risking hamr to his hostage).

 

Yes, based on the above I believe they are sufficiently comparable that I'm happy with the results.

We see it differently then.

 

First, i was not assuming any sort of "find a person" mind scna like ability for the megasense. i cannot say "teleport to fred" unless fred was a predetermined fixed point. If you are lumping "find where anyone i know of is" as a component of enhanced senses with megascale, I bet you don't see much mind scan, which costs a whole lot more.

 

Second, 99% of the times i see NON_COMBAT teleport used, it is to go to places not people. 99% of the time an attack is used, it is used to hit a character, a person, not a place. These are of course, figues in my experience.

 

So in the first case, no senses, you are giving teleport 99% of its utility and the attack 1% of its utility and calling it balanced. thats primarily where we disagree. IMX most non-combat teleport is not used for the tactical aspects you are describing but for place to place, so this is effectively NO RESTRICTION on the non-combat teleport, while the attack is mostly useless.

 

Thats not balanced. Thats not reasonable? Those aren't comparable?

This is the meat and potatoes IMO of our disagreement.

If you really see "using non-com teleport to go to places but not people" and "using an attack to attack places but not people" as comparable reductions in utility from "using non-com teleport to teleport to people" and "uses attacks to attack people", then we won't ever come anywhere close to agreeing on this. We play so radically different games if those are comparable losses in yours that we have practically no basis for comparison.

 

Is this really how you see it play out in your games?

 

In the second case, you add the 1% back to teleport and the 99% back to the attack and call that balanced, and it likely is.

 

As for your surprise examples, popping in to surprise someone with NO ACTIONS left, and at reduced DCV and OCV due to using non-combat movement??? Thats hardly what one would call a major effect.

 

I suspect most of your players would figure out quickly enough to teleport to the place somewhere nearby, then to use combat teleport to get in at full OCV and full DCv and perhaps with actions to spare so they can actually take advantage of your surprise.

 

 

Well, it could be I'm the one in error. perhaps your game is chock full of interesting events happening too far away for the characters to get to them and participate in the scenario.

Actually, it is a staple of my game that things, interesting things, do happen elsewhere, at least when running full on supers games. Often these are things too far away for the characters without the mega movement to interact with, while the megamovers can get there, usually to examine clues and track leads and such. Its one of the ways players who spent points for those abilities see them show off in play.

 

For example, the team finds out that their enemy just hit a lab in Newark NJ and sends the speedster to check it out, getting on scene within minutes possibly even before the scene gets clamped down and not having to wait for whatever he can find from the news. he might even be able to track them, gaining more clues. Winds up running a 10 minute or so investigations scene.

 

Now, of course, if this scene will take a chunk of time, then there are other things for the others to do locally, and we play them too, often cutting back and forth.

 

If none of the characters at all have megamoves, then this is used less frequently, since it doesn't highlight a PC ability, but it is still used to give them the scope of their enemy feeling and less significant clues.

 

Yup. [Pictures game where GM says "It's a quiet night in Campaign City USA. There's been little going on for a week or so. The news reports say Eurostar has taken hostages at the Arc de Triomphe in Paris." PC: "Guess we better book airfare. Hopefully, this will be a standoff until we get there in a couple of days." GM: "Guess you should have bought that Megasacale Teleport and Enhanced sense." Not my game. Probably not yours. Hopefully not anyone's.]

 

Now, color me silly, but thats just sounds like an example of poor GMing?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

does this loosely translate to... if they want to pay 50 points for teleport anywhere and slot it into their movement multipower for 5-10 expenditure' date=' thats fine, but if they want to buy it as a 1" megascale etc and get the same effect for 5-10 cp expenditure outside of the multipower slot, well thats abusive and I will stop it"?[/quote']

 

It translates to "in or out of Multipower, I'm not sold on buying 1" MS Teleport, Scalable, with the expectation that you can now land anywhere in that hex with pinpoint accuracy" is reasonable. To me, it's more like "OK, you move 1". You are now somewhere within that 1" area. Since your 1" is 1,000 km wide, that leaves a lot of room for determining precisely where you are."

 

I gotta' date=' the character who sinks a decent amount of points into his base and laods it with stuff (say 50-75 cp after the base discount) and who buys powers to get back and forth there quickly, and who works to make his base an interesting and integral part of the game, that isn't a "problem" to me or anything i would feel driven to "clamp down" on.[/quote']

 

Yet this is one of your stated reasons that it is appropriate to "clamp down" on the cost of Megascale by applying a fixed cost enhanced sense once your MS exceeds a certain range.

 

IMX 99% of NON-COMBAT teleport is done to go to a place.

********************************************************

Second, 99% of the times i see NON_COMBAT teleport used, it is to go to places not people.

 

IMX, there is little difference whether it happens instantaneously or takes a few hours, or even days, for 99% of non-combat movement. I do see a lot of "travel to a person", but they generally know where to find him, such that "person" and "place" become synonymous.

 

Second' date=' 99% of the times i see NON_COMBAT teleport used, it is to go to places not people. 99% of the time an attack is used, it is used to hit a character, a person, not a place. These are of course, figues in my experience.[/quote']

 

Oh, look. Attacks and movement are different! Yes, they are. So why would you expect the same end results from the use of Megascale on them? As I recall, the rules even indicate that they were designed more with movement than attacks in mind. That Megascale (no enhanced senses) attack will be useful at least AS OFTEN as my Armor Piercing Swimming

 

So in the first case' date=' no senses, you are giving teleport 99% of its utility and the attack 1% of its utility and calling it balanced. thats primarily where we disagree. IMX most non-combat teleport is not used for the tactical aspects you are describing but for place to place, so this is effectively NO RESTRICTION on the non-combat teleport, while the attack is mostly useless.[/quote']

 

I'm also placing no restrictions on the non-combat use of the attack - you just need to find a use for it out of combat. And, in my experience, the incremental benefit of being able to travel vast distances is limited. I do not find that ability, in amnd of itself, to be unbalanced. I do find the ability to attack from several kilometers away to be generally unbalanced. As such, I am far more comfortable restricting the latter than I am in restricting the former.

 

As for your surprise examples, popping in to surprise someone with NO ACTIONS left, and at reduced DCV and OCV due to using non-combat movement??? Thats hardly what one would call a major effect.

 

I suspect most of your players would figure out quickly enough to teleport to the place somewhere nearby, then to use combat teleport to get in at full OCV and full DCv and perhaps with actions to spare so they can actually take advantage of your surprise.

 

It's tough to teleport "somewhere nearby" without that enhanced sense, since you don't know where the opposition is without it. Without the enhanced sense, but with knowledge of where Paris is, I pop in by the Eiffel tower. With the Enhanced Sense, I pop into that little shed the construction workers have set up so I don't arrive pop into the middle of the VIPER agents at 0 OCV and 0 DCV.

 

Actually, it is a staple of my game that things, interesting things, do happen elsewhere, at least when running full on supers games. Often these are things too far away for the characters without the mega movement to interact with, while the megamovers can get there, usually to examine clues and track leads and such. Its one of the ways players who spent points for those abilities see them show off in play.

 

For example, the team finds out that their enemy just hit a lab in Newark NJ and sends the speedster to check it out, getting on scene within minutes possibly even before the scene gets clamped down and not having to wait for whatever he can find from the news. he might even be able to track them, gaining more clues. Winds up running a 10 minute or so investigations scene.

 

I will suggest that, in the absence of a character with megamovement. these scenes would be reduced in fequency (as you note later on) and/or the characters getting there hours/days later would come up with basically the same information. we now come back to the beginning, where I suggested that most uses of megascale movement were as much about GM convenience as about player advantage, so maybe the cost didn't need a huge grossup.

 

[Although I suppose having no one w/ Megascale, and an event too far to reach, would be a great opportunity to showcase the Danger Room a character just bought for his base ]

[tesuji]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

Oh, look. Attacks and movement are different! Yes, they are. So why would you expect the same end results from the use of Megascale on them? As I recall, the rules even indicate that they were designed more with movement than attacks in mind. That Megascale (no enhanced senses) attack will be useful at least AS OFTEN as my Armor Piercing Swimming

 

funny but missing the point. megasacle treats them similarly, and produces consistent results. Your house rule freebie treats them differently and gives them disparate results. The base differences between the attack and the teleport were already addressed by their base costs.

 

Consider... by the book or my way however you want to describe it.

 

Megascale without senses

Tekleport and attack don't do much at all over long distances due to inability to percieve at that distance.

 

Megascale with senses

Attack and teleport gain full normal benefits, full value for their points.

 

Applying the hugh Freebie...

 

Without senses but gaining the hugh freebie...

teleport keeps most of its effectiveness (going to places) while the attack loses most of its effectiveness (cannot attack people)

 

With senses

Attack and teleport gain full normal benefits, full value for their points.

 

that doesn't add up to me, but then again, our games seem to be very very different things.

[tesuji]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

and/or the characters getting there hours/days later would come up with basically the same information.

 

A Gm could certainly set things up this way, but then he is scripting the power to be useless, just SFX flavor, and in that case, I have to wonder why you would be so insistent on making it more expensive.

 

we now come back to the beginning, where I suggested that most uses of megascale movement were as much about GM convenience as about player advantage, so maybe the cost didn't need a huge grossup.

 

Yet you seem to feel that buying this GM convenience power for 6 cp is wrong?

 

How many cp should one pay for a power the Gm scripts to be just flavor and convenience for the GM?

 

Why object so strongly to 1" megascale scalable if its just for what you describe above?

 

Now for me, the answer is simple, i don't generally script the power into being nothing more than flavor. A character able to get to the scene in second or minutes does get more info than one who arrives hours later, or different info, or other benefits, when appropriate.

 

the distant scene for a group with no megamovers will provide them with certain types of into, but the same scene with megamovers will provide them with different info and more info because that player deserves to get something for his reasonable use of his power.

 

your games different? Thats fine.

 

You script megamover into flavor only and Gm convenience, thats cool.

 

I just don't get why 6 cp for the 1" megascale is a problem for you in that case. heck, if its just Gm conbenience and flavor, why charge them for the megamover at all?

 

Is that it? Do you feel the 6 cp megamover is too expensive?

 

If i read this all right, and correct me if I am wrong...

 

1. you are OK with a global scale megamover buying more or less mostly useful megamove as part of a movement multipower for 5-10 cp.

2. you are also of the view that mostly this power is a Gm convenience thing, an FX for gaining the same info/opportunities that otherwise you would have gotten anyway by some other FX.

3. you are against/opposed to someone buying this as effective as item 1 megamove for 5-10 cp outside of the multipower using 1" of base move with advantages. (I assume you want them to buy more base inches and pay more for it?")

 

Are any of these incorrect statements?

 

1 and 2 seem to be at odds with 3.

 

ME?

 

1. I am not in favor of functional global scale megamove being in the 5-10 cp range. So the 1" plus mods doesn't get you an effectuive global scale. It gets you very little, commensuate with the cost.

2. I am in favor of the power weighing in around 15-25 cp total, as that seems to reflect the amount of utility it would get. its not just flavor and in my game you will see benefts from it you wouldn't see if you did not have it. (otherwise, i would make it free.)

3. I am in favor of it costing the same rough amount, regardless of whether its in a multipower or not. Its not OK for it to be 5 cp when a multipower slot but horrendously evil and bad for it to be 5-10 cp outside of a MP slot.

 

We disagree, thats cool.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

A Gm could certainly set things up this way' date=' but then he is scripting the power to be useless, just SFX flavor, and in that case, I have to wonder why you would be so insistent on making it more expensive.[/quote']

 

"Why I would insist" is strong - I haven't had anyone try either aproach. But the "1" heaped with advantages" approach has that distinct scent of cheddar.

 

1. you are OK with a global scale megamover buying more or less mostly useful megamove as part of a movement multipower for 5-10 cp.

2. you are also of the view that mostly this power is a Gm convenience thing, an FX for gaining the same info/opportunities that otherwise you would have gotten anyway by some other FX.

3. you are against/opposed to someone buying this as effective as item 1 megamove for 5-10 cp outside of the multipower using 1" of base move with advantages. (I assume you want them to buy more base inches and pay more for it?")

 

1" of base move smells of mozzarella as well. That's my primary objection, at least at this point. I do think the original poster's GM has the right answer to that, however, which is to limit MS to some level of multiple (his was 1" = 1,000 km IIRC). If your game is galactic in scope, make it larger (and consider ditching FTL for it). If it's smaller (just one city), maybe cap it lower.

 

1. I am not in favor of functional global scale megamove being in the 5-10 cp range. So the 1" plus mods doesn't get you an effectuive global scale. It gets you very little, commensuate with the cost.

2. I am in favor of the power weighing in around 15-25 cp total, as that seems to reflect the amount of utility it would get. its not just flavor and in my game you will see benefts from it you wouldn't see if you did not have it. (otherwise, i would make it free.)

3. I am in favor of it costing the same rough amount, regardless of whether its in a multipower or not. Its not OK for it to be 5 cp when a multipower slot but horrendously evil and bad for it to be 5-10 cp outside of a MP slot.

 

I'm generally not in favour of #3 - "It's OK to give some powers a discount for putting them in a frameowrk, but other powers are unbalanced if we allow a discount by permitting them in a framework". To me, that means anyone who buys powers which can go in a framework, and fails to put them in one, is getting ripped off. If some powers are so good they can't go in a framework, it stands to reason the others are less good, despite costing the same points.

[tesuji]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

But the "1" heaped with advantages" approach has that distinct scent of cheddar.

 

1" of base move smells of mozzarella as well. That's my primary objection, at least at this point.

Thats where we differ. I don't care how something smells. i don't care if it looks like other abusive builds might look, but in fact whether it as its own power is worth what you gain and not more, or at least close enough as any complex point buy system can be.

 

I am the first one to look at a "super-baby power" (small ap heavily modified often seense in creating abusive attacks frequently involving NND AVLD exotic defenses and/or autofire) and go "whoa lets take a look at that one" but I don't hold "it looks fishy" as my primary objection, merely a reason to scrutinize it carefully.

 

 

In short, I don't believe in guilt by association but suspicion is another matter. :-)

 

To me, that means anyone who buys powers which can go in a framework, and fails to put them in one, is getting ripped off. If some powers are so good they can't go in a framework, it stands to reason the others are less good, despite costing the same points.

 

this spawns into an entire "how are frameworks" or some such discussion.

 

Thats a whole 'nuther thread.

 

All i will say here is... in my experience there are plenty of good uses for multipowers which keep the price break to the same level as the efficiency break and multipowers serve a good role in the point buy system by realizing (among other things) that two different flavors of X aren't usually properly valued at twice the cost of either one of them if you cannot use them at the same time.

 

In my experience there are also bad multipowers, ones which exploit the advantage of the price break and wind up not properly costed.

 

But thats another thread.

 

Simply put tho, i would consider "you cannot have X to do Y because it costs 5 pts and thats too cheap" combined with "but you can have Z to do the same as Y as a 5 pt multipower slot because thats a fine cost for it" to be a GMing practice i would not generally endorse myself.

 

YMMV

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

Thats where we differ. I don't care how something smells. i don't care if it looks like other abusive builds might look, but in fact whether it as its own power is worth what you gain and not more, or at least close enough as any complex point buy system can be.

 

I am the first one to look at a "super-baby power" (small ap heavily modified often seense in creating abusive attacks frequently involving NND AVLD exotic defenses and/or autofire) and go "whoa lets take a look at that one" but I don't hold "it looks fishy" as my primary objection, merely a reason to scrutinize it carefully.

 

In short, I don't believe in guilt by association but suspicion is another matter. :-)

 

I'm inclined to agree. With that in mind, I don't tend to tear these constructs apart until I actually need them for a character, and I haven't torn Megascale apart yet for that reason. My gut feel, however, remains that Megascale Movement should be usable on its own, and that avoiding the more sleazy aspects of "1 inch movement with many MS levels" is the appropriate fix. The rules have chosen a different fix, but neither of us will automatically accept "the book is right". This being the first incarnation of Megascale, I'm more inclined to skepticism, since I haven't seen how it will balance out in practice.

 

If, ultimately, 1" hugely MS scalable were to be my preferred approach for world travel, I'd be inclined to look for a balancing figure, which may be the MS Sense (a further advantage isn't going to cut it for obvious reasons). OTOH, if the approach became 10" Flight, MS 1,000 km, scalable, that's 50 points spent to travel 10,000 km per phase. I'm OK with that. I'm probably also OK with it sitting in an MP with 25" Flight. In fact, I suspect only the rarest character would have this outside a MP, as very few characters in the comics travel vast distances (MS) and lack close combat movement powers. Even those mystics who only seem to Teleport over long distances seem to have combat flight.

 

Outside of Supers, I rarely see frameworks used, but Megascale isn't as common either. In Fantasy, the 7 league boots (naked megascale on running) come to mind, and some Teleport spells, but a "go anywhere in the world" spell seems pretty uncommon. Science fiction MS tends to be built into vehicles, which get their own discount and are commonly not paid for with points anyway.

 

this spawns into an entire "how are frameworks" or some such discussion.

 

Thats a whole 'nuther thread.

 

Agreed.

 

Simply put tho' date=' i would consider "you cannot have X to do Y because it costs 5 pts and thats too cheap" combined with "but you can have Z to do the same as Y as a 5 pt multipower slot because thats a fine cost for it" to be a GMing practice i would not generally endorse myself.[/quote']

 

Gonna have to quibble this, as we already have that logic by the very existence of MP's. If X does Y for 5 points, it only costs 1 to add it to an MP (asuming it fits the AP). It also sucks up very little of a VPP. The prices have to be fair before frameworks. Frameworks offer a discount for certain mechanisms that link powers, and reduce prices for such powers more or less universally.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Global Teleportation: How?

 

Outside of Supers' date=' I rarely see frameworks used, but Megascale isn't as common either. In Fantasy, the 7 league boots (naked megascale on running) come to mind, and some Teleport spells, but a "go anywhere in the world" spell seems pretty uncommon. Science fiction MS tends to be built into vehicles, which get their own discount and are commonly not paid for with points anyway.[/quote']

The whole question of a global teleport probably comes mostly from D&D's teleport spells, where you can (or could; I don't think I've reviewed them since 3/3.5E) instantly go anywhere you have been before or can reasonably picture/describe, limited only to your current, "plane of existence." I really haven't even seen those used much in literature, since they kind of circumvent a lot of the content of fantasy stories, which are in large part about the big and untamed world out there (without the recourse of falling back on fix-all technology or even magic...).