Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

[Labrat]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

There is a definite correlation between precision and accuracy, to me.

 

 

Nope. You can repeatedly hit the same place on a dart board and be WAY off the target. That's precision. You can scatter your darts within millimeters around the bullseye but still not hit the red spot, that's accuracy. There's a difference. Look it up.

 

In game terms if you hit the left hand of your target in several consecutive turns, that's precision. If you hit the upper body of your target (Hit Locations 3-5, 7-9) when you were aiming for the head (3-5), that would be accurate strikes, but not precise. Accuracy + Precision would be needed to get a head-shot on several consecutive turns.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

I agree that accuracy and precision mean pretty much the same, especially in regards to whether or not CSLs are used or not. I don't agree that being Enraged automatically means a lack of either. Also, not all CSLs represent accuracy/precision, or the accuracy/precision/skill of the attacker. It could represent an inherent element of the weapon being used, and it could represent some element of the Power being used that makes it more accurate by nature. Since these are just elements of SFX, I see no reason to deny one character his rightfully purchased CSLs but allow another one his.

 

On the other hand, I definately won't be allowing an Enraged charater to spread his EB for accuracy... must attack at full damage there (might allow him to spread for area though if it's a group who's caused him to go Enraged).

 

I wasn't advocating the removal of their CSLs, I was saying I would only do it if the reasoning was that they person was completely and utterly blinded by their rage etc, which I personally am just not a fan of.

 

However, I had not consiered the different SFX justifications......... so you're right. I don't think, considering that, that I would really insist upon the loss of CSLs.

 

Labrat: I already knew. As a matter of fact, I thought up pretty much that exact example when I was posting. I figured rather than go into the whole famous "Dartboard Analogy," I would just focus on how accuracy and precision are RELATED. As in, a skilled person needs BOTH. So, the correlation between accuracy and precision is that they are the trademark of a well trained individual. If you are angry enough to loose your accuracy, why not your precision too?

 

I never said they were the same thing. If I accidentally did, then I apologize, because I was flat out wrong for doing so.

[Labrat]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Labrat: I already knew. As a matter of fact, I thought up pretty much that exact example when I was posting. I figured rather than go into the whole famous "Dartboard Analogy," I would just focus on how accuracy and precision are RELATED. As in, a skilled person needs BOTH. So, the correlation between accuracy and precision is that they are the trademark of a well trained individual. If you are angry enough to loose your accuracy, why not your precision too?

 

I never said they were the same thing. If I accidentally did, then I apologize, because I was flat out wrong for doing so.

 

I've seen fights first hand where the attacker was trying his hardest to incapacitate the target. Blind fury lead to a focus on the head, but the results ended up with multiple harsh blows landing about the head, neck and upper body as the defender dodged and countered. The blind fury (Enraged) lead to accurate shots with the head being the target but at the sacrifice of precision. A more even-headed assailant would have taken fewer shots but those shots could be better timed to hit the desired target (Accuracy + Precision).

[Manic Typist]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

I've seen fights first hand where the attacker was trying his hardest to incapacitate the target. Blind fury lead to a focus on the head' date=' but the results ended up with multiple harsh blows landing about the head, neck and upper body as the defender dodged and countered. The blind fury (Enraged) lead to accurate shots with the head being the target but at the sacrifice of precision. A more even-headed assailant would have taken fewer shots but those shots could be better timed to hit the desired target (Accuracy + Precision).[/quote']

 

 

Fair point, I can conceed that. But, that does mean that there is some correlation between the two, yes?

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

For other facets this would be best defined as:

*Phobia (get away from the trigger of fear as fast as possible, even if you have to run over children or hurt yourself in order to do it (like the Saw victimes).

 

*Duty (irrational behavior due to intense personal conviction, such as the zealous believer who thinks that their god is instructing them to blow themselves up in a market full of the enemy of his people).

 

*Dispair (such as the girl who believes that she just cannot possibly survive without intimacy and so she clings to the first guy to show interest (good guys and creeps) frequently and often just so she won't be alone).

 

*Lust (such as the creep mentioned above who has zero respect for women and cannot stand the thought of a relationship lasting longer than one night, but needs that score just to maintain his ego balance -- this could be a Dependence, but he won't start dying if he doesn't get it done, he just thinks that he will).

 

Do these make sense?

I don't think these are all good examples of this application. Yes, the Phobia one is, but the rest seem more like regular Psych Lims to me.

 

There should be a specific behavioral responce each time:

 

Enraged: All-out attack on the source of your rage.

Panic: Run away as fast as possible.

Dispair: Drop weapon, stop all efforts, surrender.

Wig out: Fall to the ground in a fetal position and go to your "happy place".

Sexual Frenzy: All-out rutting with the object(s) of your desire.

Hysterics: Uncontrollable laughter, grab your sides, possibly wet your pants

 

etc.

 

The girl with low self-esteem and the womanizing guy that you mention are just ordinary PsychLims. Like Dust Raven, I don't think that Sense of Duty really fits this category at all.

 

And I don't see what's so special about Skill Levels that mean that you must lose them while enraged, et al. What about other skills? Should you lose Two-Weapon Fighting? Or Weapon Familiarity? What about the "Brick Tricks" skill, for the punch-the-ground-shockwave? Vehicle Familiarity? Combat Driving?

[Manic Typist]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

 

And I don't see what's so special about Skill Levels that mean that you must lose them while enraged, et al. What about other skills? Should you lose Two-Weapon Fighting? Or Weapon Familiarity? What about the "Brick Tricks" skill, for the punch-the-ground-shockwave? Vehicle Familiarity? Combat Driving?

 

 

Maybe.

 

If the whole "concept" of your Enraged is that your higher thought processes and essentially your personality is overridden, shouldn't your acquired abilites also be overridden? If you can't think clearly enough to restrain yourself, why can you think clearly enough to realize that "Ok, I need to do this this and this to accomplish this." If your one thought is "KILL!" then I can see justification for the loss of skills.

 

So, actually, I would see an EXTRA incentive for the loss of Brick Tricks and Combat Driving.

 

Now, I can see arguments for Weapon Familiarity and CSLs being kept, IN ADDITION to what everyone else has said, based on the grounds of muscle memory...

 

In summation: if the "SFX" of your Enraged is that you loose concious control of yourself, might you also loose control of all your abilities that REQUIRE concious control?

[Robyn]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

If the whole "concept" of your Enraged is that your higher thought processes and essentially your personality is overridden' date=' shouldn't your acquired abilites also be overridden? If you can't think clearly enough to restrain yourself, why can you think clearly enough to realize that "Ok, I need to do this this and this to accomplish this." If your one thought is "KILL!" then I can see justification for the loss of skills.[/quote']

 

This goes true for Enraged, yes. But the Berserk mentality is just an example:

 

Can/should the 'Enraged/Beserk' be applied more broadly to cover some of the more 'Passionate' Psych Lims such as 'Won't Do X' or 'Is in Love with X'...?

 

For example, instead of focusing 'Enraged/Beserk' on battle fury, why not expand it to all extreme emotional 'trigger' states such as lust, duty and dispair?

 

We could/should expand "Enraged/Berserk" so it applies not only to battle fury, but to any extreme emotional "trigger" states. To the character's Passions:

 

Pendragon characters are not supposed to be without common sense or logic, but they possess strong feelings and act with consistency to those feelings, even when there is a cost.

 

I think labrat is suggesting that the mechanics for Enraged/Berserk could be used in conjunction with holes in the character's psyche that would normally be expressed as Psych Limits; the character's mind is perfectly rational, but makes an exception for what they are Passionate about, and rearranges their reasoning to justify their feelings.

 

__________________

"HERO, thy books are freakin' tiny." - Robyn, speaking of the Pendragon sourcebook

[Dust Raven]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

And I don't see what's so special about Skill Levels that mean that you must lose them while enraged, et al. What about other skills? Should you lose Two-Weapon Fighting? Or Weapon Familiarity? What about the "Brick Tricks" skill, for the punch-the-ground-shockwave? Vehicle Familiarity? Combat Driving?

 

Well, I wouldn't let an Enraged character use Conversation, Lockpicking, Stealth or Computer Programming...

[Labrat]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Well' date=' I wouldn't let an Enraged character use Conversation, Lockpicking, Stealth or Computer Programming...[/quote']

 

True. I think we're getting bumped off the puck here. My original point is to expand (like Robyn said) the Enraged/Beserk Disadvantage to cover any Psych Lims that fall beyond the 'Total' range. This implies a triggered response to a set event that isn't easily recovered from by a mere EGO roll.

 

Other than that, you have to admit that even Enraged/Beserk is redundant and useless as it's own Disad.

 

Phil, I agree that the examples I gave wasn't the best, but they were there to help me illustrate my point... which I may have failed to do. The Duty, Lust and Dispair examples can be used per the Beserk rules if you consider how blindly irrational some people can act if that's their psychological trigger. If you're a starship captain who is vastly more interested in hooking up with an alien female over actually approaching her diplomatically then you have a case for radical Passion which may have to be recovered from in order to think clearly. Same sticks for my Call of Duty example if you think about it.

 

Either this works for any emotional trigger or Enraged/Beserk is entirely redundant as a glorified Psych Lim, making it an artifact of the previous versions of the HERO rules.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

I think the Enraged/Berserk mechanic would work for any "psych limit" that defines a very specific, and extreme, reaction to some specific situation. A strick code of honor wouldn't apply, no matter how total, but a violent and explosive response to being dishonored might.

 

I must stress that the reaction must be extreme in nature. We don't want 'wanders away from the source aimlessly', we want "runs at full spead, taking, or making, the shortest path the character is aware of, headless of any other dangers in that path". We also don't want 'instantly falls in love with the redhead and will believe anything she says'. Instead we want "grabs the girl by the hair and hauls her up the nearest skyscraper where she will be 'protected' against by anyone who comes near."

[Manic Typist]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Let's just rename Enraged/Berserk to get away from the limitations we associate with that name.

 

For instance, I can see a Code of Duty so strong that someone would behave in an EXTREMELY irrational and even reckless manner, to go save a commrade etc.

 

To model this, Enraged/Berserk would be acceptable. It just wouldn't be a killing frezny. It would be a rescuing while killing stuff along the way frenzy.

 

How about "Ingrained Response" or "Unbreakable Committment?"

 

Edit: "Unthinking Devotion?"

[Vurbal]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

I like the idea of extending the enraged/berserk mechanic for other results. I'd call it something like Compulsion. As far as skills go I think the real test would be whether it sidetracks you from whatever you feel compelled to do. For example, with Enraged using CSLs for offense leads directly to the result you want, while using them defensively doesn't cross your mind.

 

Arguably you could be compelled to do something that would require you to use particular skills to overcome obstacles. If you're trying to rescue someone you might need to bypass a high tech security system or use some sort of magic to divine his location. Maybe a good solution would be to have penalties for anything the character does that isn't directly leading to accomplishing the goal or causes any kind of delay. That would (at least partially) simulate being frustrated and distracted. It may end up simply being a GM call as to whether an obstacle is significant enough to justify any kind of delay or peripheral action.

[Robyn]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

How about "Ingrained Response" or "Unbreakable Committment?"

 

Edit: "Unthinking Devotion?"

 

I don't like the "Unthinking Devotion" part so much, it implies the mindlessness again. Besides, the character IS thinking about it; it's just that their reason supports or ignores the passion instead of revealing why it's irrational.

 

I like "Ingrained Response" for the reflex-level and instinct-level stuff; "Unbreakable Commitment" for the character who has trained themself to hold certain things above (and apart) from their conscious desires/whims.

 

I also love Vurbal's idea of the penalties to all actions until the character's passion has run its course. This encourages the player to roleplay their character's passion, and discourages the character from getting distracted along the way.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Let's just rename Enraged/Berserk to get away from the limitations we associate with that name.

 

For instance, I can see a Code of Duty so strong that someone would behave in an EXTREMELY irrational and even reckless manner, to go save a commrade etc.

For me, that would have to be the defined effect, and it would have to be a specific individual set when the Disad is taken. A general Code of Duty is too generic for an Enraged type mechanic. I just can't see a character with a strong sense of duty that he'll kick the crap out of a commrade if he happens to get in the way of helping save some other commrade. Kicking the crap out of any given commrade to run and save is brother Billy Bo Bob, sure, but only Billy Bo Bob.

[Labrat]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Of course now I'm thinking about the rigorous 14-/11-/8- paradigm. Perhaps this rigorous treatment of Enraged should address these go/rec numbers. Maybe it would be best to set it against EGO for the 'trigger' and against INT for the 'recovery' (being talked down, rationalizing one's actions, etc.) Perhaps even have different point assignments for penalties to the roll.

 

So you would have 'Fear of Trolls' go: EGO + 2 roll, recover INT - 2 roll.

 

The bonus/penalty could go up or down in incriments per level. Does this make sense? It makes a lot more sense to me than two arbitary numbers and actually reflects the mental state of the character.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Of course now I'm thinking about the rigorous 14-/11-/8- paradigm. Perhaps this rigorous treatment of Enraged should address these go/rec numbers. Maybe it would be best to set it against EGO for the 'trigger' and against INT for the 'recovery' (being talked down, rationalizing one's actions, etc.) Perhaps even have different point assignments for penalties to the roll.

 

So you would have 'Fear of Trolls' go: EGO + 2 roll, recover INT - 2 roll.

 

The bonus/penalty could go up or down in incriments per level. Does this make sense? It makes a lot more sense to me than two arbitary numbers and actually reflects the mental state of the character.

 

Arbitrary though they may be, I prefer the fixed numbers. Otherwise, characters with high mental stats (mentalists, etc.) are less affected by these disad's than other characters. As it stands, an Enraged for Professor X and the Hulk are both worth the same points. I think Prof X needs to take a discount if he's getting a roll much more likely to succeed, since the disad is much less likely to affect him.

[Vurbal]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Arbitrary though they may be' date=' I prefer the fixed numbers. Otherwise, characters with high mental stats (mentalists, etc.) are less affected by these disad's than other characters. As it stands, an Enraged for Professor X and the Hulk are both worth the same points. I think Prof X needs to take a discount if he's getting a roll much more likely to succeed, since the disad is much less likely to affect him.[/quote'] I agree completely. In fact I ran into a problem with my current character who I gave lots of strong psych lims (compulsive X, compulsive Y, etc...) but since he's a mentalist he has a reasonably high Ego. A standard roll for those disads would make much more sense because his compulsions aren't remotely related to his overall mental control.

 

The way I see it there are really 2 different issues that this disad would need to address. First is the issue of when it affects the character. A simple 8-/11-/14- (base disad value of 5/10/15) seems like the appropriate mechanic for that. The other is the degree to which it affects the characters ability to take unrelated (or peripherally related) actions.

 

You could set 3 different levels (+0/+5/+10 to disad value) and give skill rolls that don't directly address the disad penalties of -2 for the first level and -4 for the second, and not allow any action that doesn't directly relate to the disad at the highest level.

 

Still feels a little kludgy to me. I'll have to think about it a little more.

[Vurbal]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

I also love Vurbal's idea of the penalties to all actions until the character's passion has run its course. This encourages the player to roleplay their character's passion' date=' and discourages the character from getting distracted along the way.[/quote'] Ironically this seems like exactly the type of mechanic we were heatedly discussing a few days ago. At the time I didn't see the use for it (now I realize I have a character that it would fit much better than standard psych lims) and you said a separate mechanic wasn't necessary (and given the enraged/berserk comparison I'm starting to agree with that). Guess we aren't as far apart on it as I thought.

[Labrat]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Arbitrary though they may be' date=' I prefer the fixed numbers. Otherwise, characters with high mental stats (mentalists, etc.) are less affected by these disad's than other characters. As it stands, an Enraged for Professor X and the Hulk are both worth the same points. I think Prof X needs to take a discount if he's getting a roll much more likely to succeed, since the disad is much less likely to affect him.[/quote']

 

True. I see your point. Is there a viable work-around? I would think that Professor X would have an easier time at approaching the recovery due to his being able to reason it out. It's the point value that's the sticker.

 

In Heroic level games, lets say the maximum INT and EGO is 20, so the high-end 'Reaction' roll would be 'Fear of Trolls, go 13-/rec 13-' and a normal roll would be INT 10/EGO 10, thus 'Fear of Trolls, go 11-/rec 11-'. Getting credit for higher point adjustment (say 1 pt per +1 go modifier and 1 pt per -1 rec modifier) seems to add that disgusting granular Diadvantage that's not based on increments of 5.

 

Hmm. I like the concept but I don't know if I'm liking how the mechanics are evolving. There could be penalties added per situation, but now we're getting more complex than the current 'trigger' definition allows. Feh.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

True. I see your point. Is there a viable work-around? I would think that Professor X would have an easier time at approaching the recovery due to his being able to reason it out. It's the point value that's the sticker.

 

If he would have an easier time, he should have a better recovery roll, and consequently receive less points. He's just not as disadvantaged.

 

In Heroic level games' date=' lets say the maximum INT and EGO is 20, so the high-end 'Reaction' roll would be 'Fear of Trolls, go 13-/rec 13-' and a normal roll would be INT 10/EGO 10, thus 'Fear of Trolls, go 11-/rec 11-'. Getting credit for higher point adjustment (say 1 pt per +1 go modifier and 1 pt per -1 rec modifier) seems to add that disgusting granular Diadvantage that's not based on increments of 5.[/quote']

 

First off, why would a higher Ego make you more likely to lose your self-control? Second, I think the present structure works well enough. A 5 point change for a 36.57% shift (from 11- to 8-) or a 28.24% shift (from 11- to 14-) in likelihood doesn't seem wholly unreasonable.

[Robyn]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

First, allow me to echo everything Hugh Neilson said about the Hulk and the Beast; I was going to raise the same objections, but he got there first

 

Maybe it would be best to set it against EGO for the 'trigger' and against INT for the 'recovery' (being talked down' date=' rationalizing one's actions, etc.)[/quote']

 

Paranoia and intelligence go together just fine; instead of realizing that you're paranoid, your genius only allows you to realize the ways in which They could still be responsible.

 

It all depends, I think, on whether the Intelligence is in service to the Passion, and used to justify/rationalize it; or the Passion exists at a "lower level" (of priority) than the Intelligence, freeing the conscious mind from its influence when the Passion isn't active.

 

The character would still be overcome by their Passion when it triggered, but if their Intelligence supported it, then their INT would be used to resist any attempt to talk them down. If, on the other hand, their Intelligence normally opposed that Passion, an INT roll would be appropriate to recover from it.

 

I don't think another split in the types of Enraged/Berserk/Passionate psych limit is required; this can be accomplished with a simple alternation to the base mechanics, since the support or opposition of their Intelligence can be situational. Let someone trying to talk them down provide a base roll; let the Intelligence, then, either offer a penalty or a bonus depending on whether the Intelligence shares that goal. Other modifiers can be granted based on how well the persuasion is being worded, and on the strength of that tranquilizer they just injected into the Hulk

 

Getting credit for higher point adjustment (say 1 pt per +1 go modifier and 1 pt per -1 rec modifier) seems to add that disgusting granular Diadvantage that's not based on increments of 5.

 

I would make it 1 point per 5, so the difference isn't insignificant with very high-point Disads; psych limits seem to be based on that "multiple of 5" formula anyway, and making it "multiple of 4" for people with moderately high EGO, and "multiple of 3" for people with very high EGO, would do granularity well.

 

You could even make "multiple of 4" the base level (for people with average EGO), and only give "multiple of 5" to people with low EGO.

[Labrat]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

I find egotistical people to be among the leaders of spontanous fits of rage ... but that's beside the point.

 

Ok, youse people have worked me out of the 'go based on EGO' argument. I still think that there's some room for bonuses/penalties to recover based on INT. Robyn has some good points that INT modifiers could work just as well towards recovery (being convinced to calm down) as it would against recovery (logic strengthens the trigger argument and the condition continues). This should be an in-game adjustment at the GM's ruling.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

The idea of rolling other triggered emotional responces into the Enraged?Berserk Mechanic works just fine as far as I'm concerned. The idea of having BErserk seperate from Psych's has long seemed odd to me anyway, and I don't mind two differing mechanical systems for similar effects. I'd tend to see it as follows... Psyche Lims influence roleplaying, and are overcome with EGO rolls.

Compulsions (or whatever you want to call 'em) like Berserk are essentially disads that turn large amounts of your characters control over to the GM. Partial control=Enraged, almost total control=Berserk.

 

If I played actual Champions more often these days I'd use it to make a NPC with Neo-Con Lose Control 14-, recover 8-, When confronted with Liberal Ideology

[Manic Typist]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

 

 

 

Paranoia and intelligence go together just fine; instead of realizing that you're paranoid, your genius only allows you to realize the ways in which They could still be responsible.

 

It all depends, I think, on whether the Intelligence is in service to the Passion, and used to justify/rationalize it; or the Passion exists at a "lower level" (of priority) than the Intelligence, freeing the conscious mind from its influence when the Passion isn't active.

 

The character would still be overcome by their Passion when it triggered, but if their Intelligence supported it, then their INT would be used to resist any attempt to talk them down. If, on the other hand, their Intelligence normally opposed that Passion, an INT roll would be appropriate to recover from it.

 

 

When you said this........ I thought of Isaac Asimov's 3 Laws.

 

Use a series of trumping values to weigh this. If the Enraged reflects one of the character's lower values, such as "Respect," then his Intelligence will be used to defend and JUSTIFY his actions until those actions violate one of his higher values, such as "Absolute Loyalty to My Family." Then his Intelligence can be used to help him break OUT of the Enraged state.

 

Therefore, he would do anything to avenge himself of the disrespect done to him, until his little sister was dangling off a window ledge and his higher value is invoked. "Wait a minute... this isn't right! That's my sister! I can't let her come to harm! Oh my... What have I done??? I've endangered everything truly imporatant to me over this worm's words? I must act now..... Sister, I'm coming!"

 

Does that make any sense?

[Robyn]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

When you said this........ I thought of Isaac Asimov's 3 Laws.

 

It's been too long since I read his books, but I think that's essentially the same priority system, yes. I'd like to have "2nd tier and 3rd tier combined" be functionally equivalent to 1st tier, though; the lower priorities can team up to take on, and even overwhelm, a higher-ranking priority.

 

Use a series of trumping values to weigh this. If the Enraged reflects one of the character's lower values' date=' such as "Respect," then his Intelligence will be used to defend and JUSTIFY his actions until those actions violate one of his higher values, such as "Absolute Loyalty to My Family." Then his Intelligence can be used to help him break OUT of the Enraged state.[/quote']

 

I'm good with this, provided that (as I said above) the Absolute loyalty can't be used to cheat. Otherwise, one of those could (and probably would) just be taken for a fraction of the points received for a large number of slightly less powerful compulsions, and then used to override them.