Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

[Labrat]

Can/should the 'Enraged/Beserk' be applied more broadly to cover some of the more 'Passionate' Psych Lims such as 'Won't Do X' or 'Is in Love with X'...?

 

For example, instead of focusing 'Enraged/Beserk' on battle fury, why not expand it to all extreme emotional 'trigger' states such as lust, duty and dispair? This way you could have a character with:

 

"Sucker For Women" go 14-, rec 11-

"Fiercely Loyal: Will Not Leave A Companion Behind" go 11-, rec 8-

"Fear Of Loud Noises" go 8-, rec 8-

 

"Claustrophobia", "Follows Orders" and "Hatred of Trolls" would still be a Psych Lims since it's more a STATE OF MIND and not an emotional condition with a trigger...

 

Is this idea too redundant with Psych Lim or does it add another level to distinguish radical emotions and passions?

[Edsel]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Those all look like Psychological Limitations to me. However I can see the way that the Enraged mechanic could be used to adjucate them. (It's actually quite clever).

 

Uncommon, Common or Very Common triggers should still be worth 5, 10 or 15 points. But you could then Make the Activations look something like this: -5 points for "go 8-", 0 points for "go 11-", +5 points for "go 14-". The reverse for the recovery chances: -5 points for "recover 14-", 0 point for "recover 11-" and +5 points for "recover 8-".

 

This makes the maximum: Very common (15 points), go 14- (+5 points), recover 8- (+5 points). Total Disad = 25 points which is in keeping with the general value of a big disad.

[Robyn]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Can/should the 'Enraged/Beserk' be applied more broadly to cover some of the more 'Passionate' Psych Lims such as 'Won't Do X' or 'Is in Love with X'...?

 

For example, instead of focusing 'Enraged/Beserk' on battle fury, why not expand it to all extreme emotional 'trigger' states such as lust, duty and dispair?

 

I like this idea

 

Of course, I'm recently thrilled by Pendragon, so

[Labrat]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Those all look like Psychological Limitations to me. However I can see the way that the Enraged mechanic could be used to adjucate them. (It's actually quite clever).

 

Uncommon, Common or Very Common triggers should still be worth 5, 10 or 15 points. But you could then Make the Activations look something like this: -5 points for "go 8-", 0 points for "go 11-", +5 points for "go 14-". The reverse for the recovery chances: -5 points for "recover 14-", 0 point for "recover 11-" and +5 points for "recover 8-".

 

This makes the maximum: Very common (15 points), go 14- (+5 points), recover 8- (+5 points). Total Disad = 25 points which is in keeping with the general value of a big disad.

 

I can definitely side with the purists who want to keep Enraged as is, but I also see the argument for what I presented here. After all, sometimes Psych Lim is awkwardly dismissed by a successful EGO Roll, where the Enraged-like obsessive nature would be more appropriate.

 

I'm glad I see that it makes sense to more than just me. The good thing is that it can be applied without any rules changes or rules expansions, just an idea of when best applied versus calling it a 'Psych Lim'. Berserk/Enraged seems like one of the left-over concepts that hasn't evolved with the rest of the HERO Systems over the years. But that could be said for most of the Disads IMO (heck if it ain't broke, don't fix it... but still we should test them rigorously as the rest of the system matures).

 

Anybody else have any good ideas of where this could be applied? Mine were more or less off the cuff...

[Manic Typist]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

I'm not quite sure I see how this differentiate from Psych Disads.

 

I mean, if I take a "Total: Will Not Leave a Commrade Behind," isn't that the same thing as "Enraged: Will Not Leave a Commrade Behind?"

 

In either case, I will fight as hard and furiously as I can to go back and get that person, and if I am somehow stopped, I will literally explode on who or whatever stops me.

[Labrat]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

I'm not quite sure I see how this differentiate from Psych Disads.

 

I mean, if I take a "Total: Will Not Leave a Commrade Behind," isn't that the same thing as "Enraged: Will Not Leave a Commrade Behind?"

 

In either case, I will fight as hard and furiously as I can to go back and get that person, and if I am somehow stopped, I will literally explode on who or whatever stops me.

 

Well it wouldn't be really 'Enraged: Will Not Leave a Comrade Behind' it would be more of 'Call of Duty: Will Not Leave A Comrade Behind' and instead of inspiring blood-fury it would promote a sense of unveering dedication.

 

So, for example,

Sgt. Stone sees young Pvt. Wetshorts being dragged off by alien xenovores. He knows the xenovores will imprison young Pvt. Wetshorts and use him either as a trap or as an upcoming meal. Assume the battle rages on to the point where they just can't get to Pvt. Wetshorts in time but they know where he's going to be taken to.

 

A: The Psych Lim: Will Not Leave A Comrade Behind will give Sgt. Stone a sense of duty, but he will consider balancing the mission and the safety of his other platoon-mates before making an effort to rescue. After the fight he radios base, collects maps, talks to his platoon and forms a rescue plan.

 

B: The Call Of Duty: Will Not Leave A Comrade Behind will make the Sgt. drop everything on the spot and dive into the enemy lines while their guns are still blazing, leaving him probably dead if he doesn't recover, and his platoon leaderless.

 

I see this as a difference. The Enraged-model triggers a roll-based obsession that has one solution: ACT NOW. The Psych Lim can be role-played out and acted on, but considers urgency vs. circumstancial practicality.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

But doesn't a "Total" Psych lim require action, and can only be "rolled" out of at GM's discretion, and even then a really good roll?

[Labrat]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

But doesn't a "Total" Psych lim require action' date=' and can only be "rolled" out of at GM's discretion, and even then a really good roll?[/quote']

 

Yep. And here's the crux of the issue: Doesn't that make Bezerk/Enraged completely redundant? If we are to keep Beserk/Enraged among the Disad options, why not expand it to reflect all obsessively-passionate Psych Lims?

[Manic Typist]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

I would just say Beserk/Engraged is a shorthand way of saying "Pysch Lim: Total, Triggered By X, results in immediate killing frenzy."

 

You can achieve the same effect by building it that way, it just takes up more space. But you have the Limitation, its strength, even frequency, stimulus, and how it would be exhibited.

[TheRavenIs]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Can/should the 'Enraged/Beserk' be applied more broadly to cover some of the more 'Passionate' Psych Lims such as 'Won't Do X' or 'Is in Love with X'...?

 

For example, instead of focusing 'Enraged/Beserk' on battle fury, why not expand it to all extreme emotional 'trigger' states such as lust, duty and dispair? This way you could have a character with:

 

"Sucker For Women" go 14-, rec 11-

"Fiercely Loyal: Will Not Leave A Companion Behind" go 11-, rec 8-

"Fear Of Loud Noises" go 8-, rec 8-

 

"Claustrophobia", "Follows Orders" and "Hatred of Trolls" would still be a Psych Lims since it's more a STATE OF MIND and not an emotional condition with a trigger...

 

Is this idea too redundant with Psych Lim or does it add another level to distinguish radical emotions and passions?

 

Those all look like Psychological Limitations to me. However I can see the way that the Enraged mechanic could be used to adjucate them. (It's actually quite clever).

 

Uncommon, Common or Very Common triggers should still be worth 5, 10 or 15 points. But you could then Make the Activations look something like this: -5 points for "go 8-", 0 points for "go 11-", +5 points for "go 14-". The reverse for the recovery chances: -5 points for "recover 14-", 0 point for "recover 11-" and +5 points for "recover 8-".

 

This makes the maximum: Very common (15 points), go 14- (+5 points), recover 8- (+5 points). Total Disad = 25 points which is in keeping with the general value of a big disad.

 

 

I like this idea, I just might have to steal it, btw.....I owe you both rep. Can't give out any....given too much in 24 hrs.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

I think there is a distinction. With Psych Lim, you are still in control of your faculties and can make "rational" decisions to satifsy your (usually irrational) reaction to a situation. With Berserk/Enraged, you are no longer in controll of your own actions - they are "pre-determined" - depending on the die roll.

 

You could have PsychLim: Fear of Trolls, which means you take extra measures to avoid trolls.

Or you could have Paniced by Trolls: if you roll X- when you see a troll, you run screaming in the other direction as fast as you can.

[Labrat]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

I think there is a distinction. With Psych Lim, you are still in control of your faculties and can make "rational" decisions to satifsy your (usually irrational) reaction to a situation. With Berserk/Enraged, you are no longer in controll of your own actions - they are "pre-determined" - depending on the die roll.

 

You could have PsychLim: Fear of Trolls, which means you take extra measures to avoid trolls.

Or you could have Paniced by Trolls: if you roll X- when you see a troll, you run screaming in the other direction as fast as you can.

 

Precisely!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Yes, I definately see Enraged/Berserk as a matter of losing control, nor a definition of how the character views/reacts with the world. I don't think a character should use Enraged to simulate a fierce code of honor or never leaving a man behind, but for things like Claustrophobia (when the character becomes totally useless, perhaps violently so) or other Panic Attack reaction to some situation.

 

In any case, I definatley don't think that the Enraged mechanic should be limited to violent behavior; any kind of uncontrolled, irrational behavior should work.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Are you telling that me when Enraged, a character cannot control his character so that he can best decide how to accomplish the irrational act that the Disad calls for? Vice versa, that the character with the Psych Lim CANNOT behave irrationally, but instead is perfectly capable of behaving in a normal fashion?

 

In the first case, well, you shouldn't let them have any skill levels, such as OCV, because they wouldn't be capable of the discipline, focus, and presence of mind to use them.

 

In the second, well, that sounds like a Disad that isn't disadvantageous. Which isn't a Disad.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

I'm certainly not saying it's as black and white as you put it, if that's what you mean.

 

What I'm getting at is that a Psych Limit can represent personal desires and habitual behavior; thing essentialy that the character is aware of. He makes choices based on these. Granted, those choices might be limited, and sometimes the Psych Limit might make those choices for him, but he's aware of that choice. With an Enraged, it's out of the character's conscious control. Despite reason, desire and conscious effort and knowledge, the character behaves in a particular way. In short, no one chooses to freak out over something, they just do, and Enraged is a mechanic that can represent that.

[Labrat]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

I've always seen Enraged/Bezerk as a 'Trigger' that programs the one affected into the defined state until they can break or be broken out of it. So if that trigger sets one off to destroy, they will destroy. I've seen people in blind fury states like this before. From my experience there is no precision (unless that precision is second nature like a sniper for example) but they will use raw force over precision. That being said, it's just my observation and not reflected by the way the rules are stated but I think that this is close to how the rules for Enraged are implied.

 

For other facets this would be best defined as:

*Phobia (get away from the trigger of fear as fast as possible, even if you have to run over children or hurt yourself in order to do it (like the Saw victimes).

 

*Duty (irrational behavior due to intense personal conviction, such as the zealous believer who thinks that their god is instructing them to blow themselves up in a market full of the enemy of his people).

 

*Dispair (such as the girl who believes that she just cannot possibly survive without intimacy and so she clings to the first guy to show interest (good guys and creeps) frequently and often just so she won't be alone).

 

*Lust (such as the creep mentioned above who has zero respect for women and cannot stand the thought of a relationship lasting longer than one night, but needs that score just to maintain his ego balance -- this could be a Dependence, but he won't start dying if he doesn't get it done, he just thinks that he will).

 

Do these make sense?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Are you telling that me when Enraged' date=' a character cannot control his character so that he can best decide how to accomplish the irrational act that the Disad calls for? Vice versa, that the character with the Psych Lim CANNOT behave irrationally, but instead is perfectly capable of behaving in a normal fashion?[/quote']

 

The character with a psych limit can behave irrationally, but is not limited in how his irrational behaviour might manifest. In some cases, a psych limit may cause the character to become more resolved and focused on dealing with the issue. "I've let my personal life distract me from The Clown, and now that murderer has a busload full of hostages. I won't let myself be distracted again."

 

An Enraged does, in fact, render the player unable to control how his character will accomplish the act his disad calls for. He must proceed in s atraight line to attack the source of his rage. He must place all levels on OCV. If the target cannot be reached, he must vent his frustrations on something else.

 

 

Let's take an example of a character who is (A) Protective of the Innocent (Psych), or ( Enraged when Innocents are Endangered. Someone is holding a baby over the edge of the roof, and threatening to drop the child.

 

Character A is Protective. He's not going to try to avoid his Disad. What may he do? Freeze and wait to see what the guy wants? Try to talk him down? Entangle him, englobe him in a force wall, grab him and the baby, telekinese him, etc.? Lots of choices. He can't, however, decide that this guy is too great a threat, and the baby will have to be sacrificed for the greater good, or that he'll just walk away and let the police sort it out.

 

Character B rolls, and may or may not be able to control his temper. If he is able to control his temper, all the choices of Character A are available to him. If not, he attacks the guy holding the baby. What might happpen? he charges and the guy drops the baby. He hits the guy, who is KO'd, and he drops the baby. He does knockback and opponent and baby are falling to the pavement.

 

There seems a major difference in the disadvantages. I like the idea of expanding this out to other irrational behavioural extremes. However, I think each needs to be fleshed out. for example, if we have "Terrified" rather than "Enraged", what does it mean? I would suggest the irrational character will seek to flee the source of his terror. If cornered, he may react, but may use levels only for DCV, not OCV, since his prime drive is to escape.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

^ I am fine with the above, except in the situation....... I wouldn't allow skill levels to be used at all.

 

If a highly disciplined, honed, skilled, and trained warrior is capable of loosing all of that mental discipline and tactics in the face of rage, and just go charging forward... then that warrior has also lost the skill levels that come with that training and self-control.

 

But, that's just a me thing.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

I'm certainly not saying it's as black and white as you put it, if that's what you mean.

 

 

Sometimes I find it helpful to boil something down to its simplest essence, and then analyze it.

 

Sometimes this leads to something that is unusual, such as something that is ok becoming unacceptable, even though in essence nothing has changed. It has just become very simplistic.

 

Then, I just gruadually build up on it until it reaches the point where it does make sense again, and then take a look at what changed between that last point where it didn't make sense and this new one where it does.

 

Then again, sometimes it doesn't help at all. *Shurg*

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

^ I am fine with the above, except in the situation....... I wouldn't allow skill levels to be used at all.

 

If a highly disciplined, honed, skilled, and trained warrior is capable of loosing all of that mental discipline and tactics in the face of rage, and just go charging forward... then that warrior has also lost the skill levels that come with that training and self-control.

 

You are restricting all skill levels to a single SFX, and all Enraged's to a single special effect. A Berserker would often have levels that are only in effect when berserk - he is more combat-capable in such a state. And a character can be Enraged without losing the ability to coldly calculate the manner of his target's demise, though he will generally use his own highest damage attack.

 

The warrior in your example should limit his Skill Levels to be "Not when Enraged". Though, if he enrages easily (common circumstances), his ability to be trained in this fashion seems doubtful anyway.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

You are restricting all skill levels to a single SFX, and all Enraged's to a single special effect. A Berserker would often have levels that are only in effect when berserk - he is more combat-capable in such a state. And a character can be Enraged without losing the ability to coldly calculate the manner of his target's demise, though he will generally use his own highest damage attack.

 

The warrior in your example should limit his Skill Levels to be "Not when Enraged". Though, if he enrages easily (common circumstances), his ability to be trained in this fashion seems doubtful anyway.

 

 

Well, so far I have only seen Enraged (when used in relation to a combat scenario) explained as resulting in the ONLY possible course of action is the character rushing forward in the most direct and immediate path to kill his or her target.

 

What you describe is different from what others have been describing.

 

However, you do make a persuasive point. I would certaily allow bonuses to their ego roll to any attempts to push for more damage, and encourage them to buy skill levels for "Only When Enraged." But, if the circumstances are as others have described, then yes, the SFX exclude "proper" OCV skill levels. SFX does that sometimes.

 

Now, with YOUR example, of a "cold calculation" when it coms to Enraged... well, I see nothing wrong with that. As a matter of fact, I think I prefer it for the most part (though there is nothing WRONG with a frothing berserker fury), and would allow full skill levels in character control, so long as the character was being played properly (in this case, doing his or her aboslute best to destroy whatever has Enraged that individual so).

 

Edit: Also, your point about limiting skill levels has merit. Either I would increase the value of enraged (just a pinch) to model the increased inconvienience caused by the loss of the skill levels (assuming this is a combat oriented, blind anger, Enraged of course) or allow the character to buy skill levels at a slight discount with the limitation of "Not When Enraged."

[Labrat]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Well, so far I have only seen Enraged (when used in relation to a combat scenario) explained as resulting in the ONLY possible course of action is the character rushing forward in the most direct and immediate path to kill his or her target.

 

What you describe is different from what others have been describing.

 

However, you do make a persuasive point. I would certaily allow bonuses to their ego roll to any attempts to push for more damage, and encourage them to buy skill levels for "Only When Enraged." But, if the circumstances are as others have described, then yes, the SFX exclude "proper" OCV skill levels. SFX does that sometimes.

 

Now, with YOUR example, of a "cold calculation" when it coms to Enraged... well, I see nothing wrong with that. As a matter of fact, I think I prefer it for the most part (though there is nothing WRONG with a frothing berserker fury), and would allow full skill levels in character control, so long as the character was being played properly (in this case, doing his or her aboslute best to destroy whatever has Enraged that individual so).

 

Edit: Also, your point about limiting skill levels has merit. Either I would increase the value of inraged (just a pinch) to model the increased inconvienience caused by the loss of the skill levels (assuming this is a combat oriented, blind anger, Enraged of course) or allow the character to buy skill levels at a slight discount with the limitation of "Not When Enraged."

 

Lack of precision in an enraged state does not imply a lack of accuracy... as a matter of fact if the enraged attacker is truly hell-bent for the target's destruction I would tend to allow ALL relevent OCV bonuses to be applied and no DCV levels. The attacker will get the job done at all costs, the only thing that will trump accuracy in this case is the ability to cause as much damage as possible.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

The way I see the CSLs working during an Enraged/Berserk is that all applicable levels apply, but the character has no choice of how they apply. For the standard Enraged (not the alternate uses we've discussed here), all levels must apply to OCV. To me, that means that levels that only apply to DCV cannot be used unless they are persistant and inherent (like though bought for a character due to his small size). Any level that can apply to OCV must be. Also, the character cannot hold or abort his Phases. He must act immediately at the beginning of his Phase and attempt to attack.

 

This can also be utilized somewhat if some of these alternate uses of Enraged were used. In those cases, the effect of the Enraged would determine where all those levels apply. Similarly, the character's actions would be predetermined. In the case of an Enraged causing a panic attack that causes the character to run in fear, the character must apply all levels to DCV and use his phases for movement only. He may attack only with Move Throughs and only if something is blocking his path (and only if he can't easily go around it). It might even be said that the character must use noncombat speeds while moving.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Lack of precision in an enraged state does not imply a lack of accuracy...

 

 

Actually, I think it implies EXACTLY that.

 

There is a definite correlation between precision and accuracy, to me.

 

If the Enraged completely dominates the character (i.e. that's how the player designed it) then the ONLY way that I can think of (for right now, who knows, maybe I will change my mind in 5 minutes) for them to get OCV bonuses is if their DCV was in turn halved.

 

Essentially, they are leaving themselves completely open to attack so that they can throw EVERYTHING into the offensive.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Lets Talk Disads: Enraged/Berserk

 

Actually, I think it implies EXACTLY that.

 

There is a definite correlation between precision and accuracy, to me.

I agree that accuracy and precision mean pretty much the same, especially in regards to whether or not CSLs are used or not. I don't agree that being Enraged automatically means a lack of either. Also, not all CSLs represent accuracy/precision, or the accuracy/precision/skill of the attacker. It could represent an inherent element of the weapon being used, and it could represent some element of the Power being used that makes it more accurate by nature. Since these are just elements of SFX, I see no reason to deny one character his rightfully purchased CSLs but allow another one his.

 

On the other hand, I definately won't be allowing an Enraged charater to spread his EB for accuracy... must attack at full damage there (might allow him to spread for area though if it's a group who's caused him to go Enraged).