Final Fantasy HERO: Limit Breaks

[NuSoardGraphite]

Hey guys!

 

I recently aquired a copy of Final Fantasy 7: Advent Children and of course, it has inspired me to do a JRPG-style campaign.

 

This will be set in an original world, however much of the background material is taken straight from Final Fantasy as well as other popular Japanese RPG's.

 

What I want to concentrate on right now are Limit Breaks.

 

For those of you who don't know the games, Limit Breaks are the Player Characters Special Moves with their weapons or abilities. They are not the same as spells, but act more like Super Powers. Limit Breaks have been a core part of the Final Fantasy games for decades now, though they have been called by different names (such as Overdrives) in different games.

 

Generally how Limit Breaks work is that the character has a meter that increases as the character recieves damage from enemies. When the meter is full, the character can unleash one of his Special Attacks. However in Final Fantasy X, the player could set the condition for how his Limit Break meter increased (either by taking damage, or by doing damage or a set amount over time etc) I am attempting to decide how to deal with this in my game. I was thinking that the character could decide how his character gains Limit Power during character creation, or maybe it could change mid-game depending on conditions. Perhaps the Limit Break should be Aid based on a Trigger, the Trigger can be changed outside of combat to one of a few preset modes.....

 

I know that Chi Meters are covered in Ninja Hero, and these are perfect for simulating Limit Breaks. Also what I'm looking for are ideas for different Limit Breaks and on exactly how to model a system of Limit Break ranking systems and how much End they should cost based on their "Level"

[tgrandjean]

Re: Final Fantasy HERO: Limit Breaks

 

Well assuming this is the usual Multipower with Endurance reserve, the obvious thing to do would simply be to limit REC based upon the occurance of certain conditions.

'Course, if you wanted an easy way to power up, there is always Absorption (PD/ED) to End Reserve....

But anyway, as a guess I'd figure ~30 active points per level of limit break w/ a x10 End Cost as one of the limitations... probably on the multipower as a whole. In addition figure that the End Reserve (despite it's being bought at a certain level) should start out each adventure at empty.

 

(*cough....* Well, after doing a quick review of the FAQ for FF7 perhaps a greater point level might be expected.... I didn't realize Cross Slash occasionally has Stop as an effect... Boy, it's been a while... btw: Advent's Children certainly demonstrates character who definately are a tad above human range... )

[Inu]

Re: Final Fantasy HERO: Limit Breaks

 

Yah, the characters in Advent Children are truly superhuman. Gauging superhuman-ness in the FF games is difficult, as while characters get vastly more powerful as the game progresses, so does their opposition (as in most CRPGs).

 

And Cross-slash has nothing on Omnislash, which hits the enemy 16 times. The earlier limit breaks are far simpler: deadly blow (or similar construct, if you don't use that talent) could simulate effects such as Braver or Climhazzard. Others simply apply an area-effect (with or without lower damage) to standard attacks, other advantages (Tifa's Beat rush could just be autofire) or allow unique powers (Red XIII can heal or give positive status effects via limit breaks, for instance). 'Slots' or equivalent could be a variable power pool with no conscious control at -1 (choose when it happens, but not what happens).

 

(For fun while watching the film, try to spot all the characters performing their limit breaks. Some of them don't do any (or not that I could spot... though Vincent definitely doesn't do any, which disappointed me), but most of them do a number. Cloud does all of his attacks throughout the film.)

 

As for how it works, the end reserve sounds good. It gives a level of control, but still restricting the powers. Take care they don't end up so expensive that no-one bothers with them, however. If that ends up being the case, consider giving characters a certain budget that can only be spent on limit breaks. Or if everyone's meant to have similarly-powerful limit breaks, treat it like an equipment pool (everyone gets same points, spent as they will). That construct also allows for versatility in changing limit breaks FF7-style (where you chose what kind of limits you'd perform between battles, and during the battle you'd be stuck with them).

 

What magic system are you considering? NES-style class-based abilities, 7-style materia, 8-style junctioning, 9-style class/equipment combo, or 10-style choose-your-own-powerset? Or something else. HERO would probably lend itself more easily to a fairly freeform system similarly to 10 (in that people buy their powers according to concept).

 

Then again, some kind of multiforming might be interesting, depending on the rationale for magic/special abilities.

[AdamLeisemann]

Re: Final Fantasy HERO: Limit Breaks

 

Limit Breaks have been a core part of the Final Fantasy games for decades now' date=' though they have been called by different names (such as Overdrives) in different games.[/quote']

 

Uhm, actually, limit breaks were never a part of Final Fantasy until FF7. In FF4, the characters had their individual ab ilities, but they never charged up those abilities. A true stickler might say they arrived in FF6 where Terra was able to become an esper, but even then, that was a personal ability and only one so-called "limit break."

 

They've been in there for over a decade, but not for "decades."

 

Sorry. Final Fantasy player here.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Final Fantasy HERO: Limit Breaks

 

Uhm, actually, limit breaks were never a part of Final Fantasy until FF7. In FF4, the characters had their individual ab ilities, but they never charged up those abilities. A true stickler might say they arrived in FF6 where Terra was able to become an esper, but even then, that was a personal ability and only one so-called "limit break."

 

They've been in there for over a decade, but not for "decades."

 

Sorry. Final Fantasy player here.

 

Yeah, I probably should have said "Over" a decade, but counting FF6 (which I do) we're well into the second decade on that matter.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Final Fantasy HERO: Limit Breaks

 

Yah' date=' the characters in Advent Children are truly superhuman. Gauging superhuman-ness in the FF games is difficult, as while characters get vastly more powerful as the game progresses, so does their opposition (as in most CRPGs).[/quote']

 

I've always considered the characters in most JRPG's to be "Superhuman". Their abilities typically far outstrip those of normal humans, especially when you approach the climax of most of these games.

 

And Cross-slash has nothing on Omnislash, which hits the enemy 16 times. The earlier limit breaks are far simpler: deadly blow (or similar construct, if you don't use that talent) could simulate effects such as Braver or Climhazzard. Others simply apply an area-effect (with or without lower damage) to standard attacks, other advantages (Tifa's Beat rush could just be autofire) or allow unique powers (Red XIII can heal or give positive status effects via limit breaks, for instance). 'Slots' or equivalent could be a variable power pool with no conscious control at -1 (choose when it happens, but not what happens).

 

I'm probably not going to do the Slots style Limit Break.

 

In general I was thinking that Limit Breaks would be represented via Multi-Power and its slots. Powers would be limited to 30 Ap's per level of the Limit Break, thus a Level-4 Limit Break cannot exceed 120 Active points.

 

 

(For fun while watching the film, try to spot all the characters performing their limit breaks. Some of them don't do any (or not that I could spot... though Vincent definitely doesn't do any, which disappointed me), but most of them do a number. Cloud does all of his attacks throughout the film.)

 

I recognized Cloud's Braver, Blade Beam (which he did twice) Tornado and Omni-Slash (sort of)

 

I also thought I saw one of Red-XIII's limits. Barret looked like he was preparing a Limit Break, but was interrupted. Of course, Cid's Jump was present. I didn't see anything from Yuffie or Vincent (I would really liked to have seen Vincent's Limits, but I guess they're saving that for Dirge of Cerebus)

 

As for how it works, the end reserve sounds good. It gives a level of control, but still restricting the powers. Take care they don't end up so expensive that no-one bothers with them, however. If that ends up being the case, consider giving characters a certain budget that can only be spent on limit breaks. Or if everyone's meant to have similarly-powerful limit breaks, treat it like an equipment pool (everyone gets same points, spent as they will). That construct also allows for versatility in changing limit breaks FF7-style (where you chose what kind of limits you'd perform between battles, and during the battle you'd be stuck with them).

 

I was thinking about applying enough limitations to them that they get at least a -2 cost break. No one will be able to start with a pool higher than 30 pts (Level-1) meaning they have to use Exp to get up to the coveted Level-4.

Also, I will encourage and work with the players to come up with Limit Breaks unique and complimentary to their characters personality and archtype.

 

I'm trying to decide if I should charge points for the ability to even "charge" a limit break or if it should be a "freebie" because all the PC's (and top villians) have this ability. The END Reserve is a given, but I'm trying to decide if it should be a simple FF7 style Absorbtion, or a variable situation like in FFX (I'm leaning toward the FFX style)

 

What magic system are you considering? NES-style class-based abilities, 7-style materia, 8-style junctioning, 9-style class/equipment combo, or 10-style choose-your-own-powerset? Or something else. HERO would probably lend itself more easily to a fairly freeform system similarly to 10 (in that people buy their powers according to concept).

 

There will be Materia. That much is a given. The Materia concept is very popular amongst my group so they would be dissapointed if they didn't make an appearance.

I was also thinking about making Job Classes. I'm thinking of adding quite a bit of stuff from FF-Tactics and FF-11 as well, and Job Classes and class abilities play a very important role in those games. (I would do Class abilities as Talents most likely)

As far as the magic itself, I'm thinking of making it Skill-based. As standard in most FF worlds, there will be Black Magic, White Magic, Red Magic (support spells) Blue Magic (enemy skills, which will be represented via a Mimic Power Pool!) and maybe some additional magic types depending on what I come up with myself (there are a lot of options available from Final Fantasy online)

Materia will help enhance a characters natural spell casting abilities. Either by providing a Modifier to the Magic Skill Roll, or by enhancing the Active Points of the spell cast through it (or perhaps reducing Endurance costs or any combination thereof)

Materia will also add to a characters basic Characteristics and abilities if they are equipped on a characters weapons and armor. Each weapon and armor will have a certain number of Materia slots and depending on the power level of the materia will add to their characteristics:

Fire adds +3STR per level of the Materia

Wind adds +1 DEX per level

Earth adds +2 CON per level

Water adds +3 INT per level

Thunder adds +.3 to SPD per level

Light adds +2 Ego per level

Dark adds +3 PRE per level

etc.

please note that only the highest level of Materia apply (thus you can't stack a Level 2 Fire Materia and a Level 3 Fire Materia for +15 STR, you only get a +9 STR) and that Characteristic bonuses from Materia do affect Figured Characteristics. Materia are equipment and not paid for with points. The GM will control when and if a Materia gains a new level.

Interesting side note: Wind Materia's DEX bonus and Thunder Materia's SPD bonus stack! A character with a level 3 Wind Materia for +3 DEX combined with a level 3 Thunder Materia for +.9 SPD will gain a total SPD bonus of +1.2!

 

There will, of course, be Summoning. I'm not sure if I want that to be a Seperate form of Magic Skill, a Class ability or the function of very high-level Materia (I'm leaning toward the latter).

One thing I'm considering is having Summoning be a learned ability and in order to summon the creature one must first defeat it in battle, a-la FF8/10. In anycase, Summoning will follow the model of the more recent Final Fantasy interations since FFX and the summon will stick around and fight alongside the PC's, and not simply be the SFX for a really huge attack power.

[BlackSword]

Re: Final Fantasy HERO: Limit Breaks

 

There was review on rpg.net for a free RPG based on FF-7 style games yesterday. It might be a place to see some ideas of how another person translated video game mechanics to table-top mechanics, and its free.

 

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12142.phtml

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Final Fantasy HERO: Limit Breaks

 

Killer Shrike wrote up a new framework called a Threshold Scale that works perfectly for modeling Limit Breaks (IIRC, trying to model Limit Breaks was one of the things that led him to do it)

 

it can be found here:

http://www.killershrike.com/GeneralHERO/ThresholdFramework.htm

[Enforcer84]

Re: Final Fantasy HERO: Limit Breaks

 

Though it probably isn't what you're looking for, being more fluff than Crunch. My "World of Edean" Thread in the Fantasy Hero Section (link in mysig) is a personal attempt a jrpg coolness, mostly looking at the Breath of Fire and Suikoden games.

 

Also, Lisa Nazdy (Sp?) was once working on a FF world. Her thread should be here somewhere.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Final Fantasy HERO: Limit Breaks

 

Just watched Advent Children tonight.

I loved it. Especially since my favorite bit chracter not only was shown in the movie but got lines! Go Zack!

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Final Fantasy HERO: Limit Breaks

 

Just watched Advent Children tonight.

I loved it. Especially since my favorite bit chracter not only was shown in the movie but got lines! Go Zack!

 

Bet you can't wait to play Crisis Core for the PSP. That game will probably cause me to go out and pick one up finally...

[Enforcer84]

Re: Final Fantasy HERO: Limit Breaks

 

Bet you can't wait to play Crisis Core for the PSP. That game will probably cause me to go out and pick one up finally...

Yeah, there are some PSP games that are definately calling to me. Crisis Core, Breath of Fire III, Suikoden I & II compilation, Valkrie Profile: Lenneth...

*Sigh*....

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Final Fantasy HERO: Limit Breaks

 

Don't know Crisis Core - the rest I have on my PS One. Nyah nyah.

 

You can also do a search on Cloud Limit Break, my build is somewhere in a thread on these forums, and I'd be happy to repost it.

 

I have to agree with Adam - Limit Breaks were unique to VII - in VIII they had some sort of unleashable ability, but it wasn't until IX and Trance that they became more than a super-charged hyper attack.

 

Oh, and if you're building Tifa's limit break: it's 'Power Name,' Activation Roll, Limitation: Must succeed to use next Limit Break.

 

Also, use the Trance rules from Final Fantasy IX - you build an END Reserve that gains strength via taking hits through Absorbtion. The Absorb has a limitation: "Does not protect against damage." It also only absorbs 1d6 per hit taken (which means getting tagged with Autofire is money). It ALSO means that FF Characters are going to need a little less DEF than others if you want them to gain Limit Breaks.

 

Further note: Final Fantasy Combat has always been about big hits and big damage; you're going to need to pump up the BODY for most of these characters or revisit the STUN rules if you want to preserve the feel of FF. Not saying you have to, suggesting heavily that you should.

 

Also, see my notes to Erkenfresh. I swear I need to do these projects in advance before everyone else decides to start doing them. Sheesh.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Final Fantasy HERO: Limit Breaks

 

Nah, we all mash em together and come up with so many variants, options, and crunch that it becomes easy as pie for the latecomers to quickly identify and make off with the most useful bits.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Final Fantasy HERO: Limit Breaks

 

Grr. True story, though. One of the things that's been counfounding me (other than writing pages & pages for my epic campaign) was how to properly handle the design of a FF campaign. I came up with a few ways to do it.

 

Normally. As in, you build & play your hero normally, with a few GM glances at the sheet but otherwise, sort of "Meh, that's fine."

 

Final Fantasy VII. You only learn 'Super Skills' via materia. If you don't want to use Materia, you could reasonably build a character who's 'talented' but eschews magick. Materia do not have Skill Rolls, but it makes one wonder if in a Hero conversion they wouldn't be warranted. And then, of course, how do you handle it? Fire Materia? Direct Damage materia? By color?

 

Final Fantasy Tactics. You select a Job. (J-O-B JOB). You begin 'training' in that job, and purchase skills on the tree of that job, unlocking other jobs as you progress and gain enough XP to expand your Job Wheel. This is almost a d20esque progression, the difference of course being that you (the GM) have constructed enough of these Jobs that no reasonable game would have someone running around with 700 XP inside of a year; people would spend a few months (or more) on a single job, likely working towards getting a more advanced version or (this being Hero) asking to build new elements of their old Job.

 

For example: Soldier. Power: Guts. Guts has the following abilities in it: First Aid, Head Smack, etc. You build up Guts until you've expended (X) points in Guts; once you've done so, you unlock other Jobs which have the Prerequisite: Guts, (X) points or more.

 

But I do not have the time to build all the wheels (which isn't hard, just freaking time consuming). Besides, I still have to finish the Halo thread.