Multiple Attacks in a Phase

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

It's mathematics. You can buy extra REC up to a certain point' date=' but after that it's more cost-efficient to buy SPD as an effective multiplier of your REC.[/quote']

Unitl you hit NCM on Speed, anyway

 

It doesn't matter if there is NCM or not' date=' it's still a legitimate build (provided the extra SPD doesn't itself exceed the NCM).[/quote']

legitimate? Yeah, its legitimate, as far as anything written using the rules is legitimate.

If you do some forum searches you will discover lots of discussion in the past about limited purpose Speed builds... most of us have played around with the idea at one point in time or another, and it usually ends up being a headache for the GM in play, and you get weird logical disconnects concerning Aborts and order of actions based on the way the speed chart is built. Limited Speed works best, generally speaking, when you double an even number Speed... so in a NCM game, the only one that doesn't mess with the order of things is 2 Speed, +2 Limited Speed.

 

A special recovery talent/power can be built on a Heroic scale with a small Stun & End Healing with some nifty modifiers.

[Guyon]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

Well if it is not for a player character why even spend the time with a build? Just say it has x number of attacks and that is a natural ability for that species. Sort of like you have 5 toes on each foot! Skipping those steps lets you focus more on your game and less on the mechanics.

 

Though it it for a Player Character or a leaning experience then yes go for the point build.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

Sounds like a good idea... effectively, it treats the 2-pt CSL for Sweep as a PSL. Elegant, and to the point!

 

Rep!

Well, the problem with it (and this is why I hestitate over it a little bit, even though it has worked so far) is that it removes any reason to take less attacks in such a maneuver. If I have +4 with Sweep, then if I make a Sweep there is absolutely no point to ever attacking only twice, whereas if it can result in a bonus, I make the tradeoff of +2 OCV vs. a third attack. I'm not sure it was all that rep-worthy, but thanks anyway.

[Robyn]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

Well if it is not for a player character why even spend the time with a build? Just say it has x number of attacks and that is a natural ability for that species. Sort of like you have 5 toes on each foot! Skipping those steps lets you focus more on your game and less on the mechanics.

 

HERO's strength is in letting us stat anything, which - among other benefits - allows us to ensure some level of game balance. There's also the question of how it interacts with the rest of the system. Are the players just going to freeform their way through encounters with this creature? If they're using abilities that have a certain guaranteed strength within the system, the GM should be able to easily (and fairly) arbitrate the interaction between these abilities and the powers of the monster.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

That'd be one of those official rules that I threw out almost as soon as I first read or heard about it.

Counter Intuative and generally pointless.

 

I don't mind the addition of PSL's to the system, but they should, IMO, be able to be applied pretty much across the board to negative penalties, regardless of what source those penalties come from.

It makes it easier if you just think of the maneuver-based OCV modifier as reflecting the inherent complexity of the maneuver as opposed to a situational penalty, which is what PSLs are good for (in a limited fashion). If you use the maneuver, you are always going to have a reduced OCV, and you know it. If you want to be better at the maneuver, buy 2-point CSLs for that maneuver; it's what they are for. I wouldn't allow PSLs to counter a weapon that is inherently harder to use (imposes a negative OCV modifier) either. But happening to be non-proficient with the weapon or not strong enough to use it effectively might be a different matter (depends more on whether or not it would be unbalancing for the particular campaign).

 

EDIT: Of course, I'd reduce the Real Cost of the weapon--where it mattered--on the cost of the 2-point CSLs needed to offset the OCV penalty. Others might handle it differently.

[Silbeg]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

Well' date=' the problem with it (and this is why I hestitate over it a little bit, even though it has worked so far) is that it removes any reason to take less attacks in such a maneuver. If I have +4 with Sweep, then if I make a Sweep there is absolutely no point to ever attacking only twice, whereas if it [i']can[/i] result in a bonus, I make the tradeoff of +2 OCV vs. a third attack. I'm not sure it was all that rep-worthy, but thanks anyway.

 

Well, there is a potential reason... END. Since you have to pay END for each attack, the combat monster attacking three times is going to eat up END rather quickly.

 

I would watch character design very carefully if I saw a lot of levels with Sweep, especially with the Rapid Attack skill, and attacks bought to 0 END. There would be a great opportunity for abuse in that.

 

I may have come up with a different solution to the original question - how to simulate the multiple limb attack (such as the claw-claw-bite routine).

 

If you leverage the Two-Weapon Fighting Skill (sounds more like a Talent to me, but whatever), you could create a Multi-Attack Skill - something like this.

 

 

10 Multi-Limbed Combat

+5 per limb after the second.

Character (creature?) must designate a primary attack (i.e., the one that will be the least penalized). With a Full-Phase Action, the creature can attack with a Multi-Limb Attack. Its primary attack will be at its full OCV, while each of its seconday attack (all other limbs) will be at a -2 OCV/.

 

Similar to Two Weapon Fighting, if the campaign allows for Sweep/Rapid Attack, while performing the Multi-Limb Attack, the creature is at -1DCV/limb (min -2 DCV).

 

Example, Draco the Dragon (a real dragon) can attack with 2 claw attacks, and his primary bite attack. He has purchased Multi-Limbed Combat (for 15 points), so that he can create a three-limbed attack routine. When attacking Sir George, Draco attacks (as a full phase action) with his Bite at his full OCV of 7, and both claws with an OCV of 5.

How does this sound?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

Similar to Two Weapon Fighting, if the campaign allows for Sweep/Rapid Attack, while performing the Multi-Limb Attack, the creature is at -1DCV/limb (min -2 DCV).

 

Example, Draco the Dragon (a real dragon) can attack with 2 claw attacks, and his primary bite attack. He has purchased Multi-Limbed Combat (for 15 points), so that he can create a three-limbed attack routine. When attacking Sir George, Draco attacks (as a full phase action) with his Bite at his full OCV of 7, and both claws with an OCV of 5.

 

How does this sound?

Sounds like a good approach, but that's not quite how Two-Weapon Fighting works normally. When using Two-Weapon Fighting (or any Sweep for that matter) you get the penalty to ALL attacks based upon the number you are making. So the dragon would be at the lesser OCV for all three attacks (unless it has +2 OCV CSLs with its bite or something, or you are considering that an off-hand penalty--which doesn't seem right because the dragon presumably paid for its claws). What I would do (and this is the way I handle Two-Weapon Fighting) is require all (/at least two) limbs to take place in the attack in order to gain the benefits of the construct. So if the dragon only chose to bite three times that would take the usual -4 OCV modifier and 1/2 DCV of a normal Sweep. Likewise if a character with Two-Weapon fighting attacked with only the primary weapon, or with only the off-hand weapon (in which case off-hand penalties might also apply if the character doesn't have less limited Ambidexterity).

[Silbeg]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

Sounds like a good approach' date=' but that's not [i']quite[/i] how Two-Weapon Fighting works normally. When using Two-Weapon Fighting (or any Sweep for that matter) you get the penalty to ALL attacks based upon the number you are making. So the dragon would be at the lesser OCV for all three attacks (unless it has +2 OCV CSLs with its bite or something, or you are considering that an off-hand penalty--which doesn't seem right because the dragon presumably paid for its claws).

Understood, but since the original question was about how to preserve the mechanic from D20, I put the "primary" weapon thingie in there. In my game, I would just tack on a +5 adder to Two Weapon Fighting per additional weapon, which would negate an additional -2.

 

 

What I would do (and this is the way I handle Two-Weapon Fighting) is require all (/at least two) limbs to take place in the attack in order to gain the benefits of the construct. So if the dragon only chose to bite three times that would take the usual -4 OCV modifier and 1/2 DCV of a normal Sweep. Likewise if a character with Two-Weapon fighting attacked with only the primary weapon' date=' or with only the off-hand weapon (in which case off-hand penalties might also apply if the character doesn't have less limited Ambidexterity).[/quote']

 

Makes a lot of sense... I would definitely agree there!

[David Johnston]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

Well' date=' there [i']is [/i]a potential reason... END. Since you have to pay END for each attack, the combat monster attacking three times is going to eat up END rather quickly.

 

Unless there's some reason why you want your fights to last a long time, that isn't an issue.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

Well' date=' there [i']is [/i]a potential reason... END. Since you have to pay END for each attack, the combat monster attacking three times is going to eat up END rather quickly.

 

I would watch character design very carefully if I saw a lot of levels with Sweep, especially with the Rapid Attack skill, and attacks bought to 0 END. There would be a great opportunity for abuse in that.

True...but remember that heroic equipment is usually bought 0 End, which means all you have to pay End for is the use of Str (and you only have to pay once each Phase for any number of Str uses, so...). Likewise, I think many monsters' natural weapons might be bought in the same way (I'll have to pop out the Bestiary at some point and look at examples). So really in the baseline case there is no exhorbitant End cost for multiple attacks (the cost is in fact no greater than for one attack).

 

In superheroic games where attack powers often cost End above and beyond any Str used, it would indeed be a valid reason to make fewer attacks. Of course, I don't think Sweep and Rapid Fire are as much an issue in superheoic games, and I for one don't limit them in the same way there.