Multiple Attacks in a Phase

[Thia Halmades]

I'm doing some d20 Monster Conversions for my Epic Campaign which will soon be going full-bore HERO. In d20, you can declare a 'Full Attack' and go nuts with everything you've got; in the case of the monster I'm translating, that means 'claw/claw/bite' or in this case, "swing, swing, bite" - if I want to hit multiple people with the sword, that's either a Sweep or a Rapid Attack. Okay. But CAN I hit one person multiple times with the full sequence of attacks, i.e., sword swing, sword swing, bite, all on the monster's turn?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

Autofire Skills. Multiple Power Attack.

 

either/or.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

Autofire wasn't what I was looking for. Multiple Power Attack might do it.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

MPA is probably you're best bet:

Requires a Full Phase Action.

All Attacks of a Smilar Nature can be used.

All Attacks focus on one target.

[incrdbil]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

When looking at the diofferences in the D20 turn and the Hero system phase, just adding some extra speed (maybe only for atatcks) seems reasonable as well. Te Hero turn is 2 d20 rounds. As you go over speed two, you are getting to the point of multiple attacks in the d20 round. So, buying a critter 2 to 4 (even 6) extra Speed points, usable only for attacks could be a way of simulating the effect, besides the ones alreay mentioned.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

One of the things we discussed last game was that SPD 4 is very, very fast. The party Ninja has a 4, and most other people have 3. My mooks should probably hover around a 2, and bigger, badder creatures climb from there. My immediately concerns are as follows:

 

In d20, magic has a Saving Throw. In HERO, it requires an Attack Roll and then has armor, but no 'saving throw' mechanic. Once someone gets tagged up with the spell, it's usually over. So I'm working on builds that are fair, but can survive magical punishment. For example, one of the creatures I'm working on now has a natural Armor 5 v. Magic in d20. But that doesn't mean the same thing in HERO.

 

In d20, you have the Challenge Rating of the creature; this particular MOB, the Barghest, is a CR 4, and has 33 HP (according to Killer Shrike's site, that's roughly BODY 12). Magical Killing Attacks have generally proven to be extremely potent against various creatures (such as mooks) so far. Good news; the casters have learned to avoid getting hit, so once someone is pursuing them, they're forced to abort. Bad news: when they fire, it tends to cook whatever they shot at.

 

Some people are under the impression that at any moment they can fire at the 'hex' the victim is standing in, and hit the victim. I believe I've corrected this, and now they're simply using AOEs in this fashion, which is fine, and then the opponents dodge/dive away from the attack. Makes quite a mess, though.

 

So what I'm trying to do now is make sure that my HERO Barghest puts up as much of a fight as a d20 Barghest did; although it's only CR 4 (the party is built on 300 points, a CR 4 is closer to... 175 or 200) I'd like to see it take a piece out of someone's hide.

[Ndreare]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

If the players are in the 300 point range why would you expect a 175 point monster to do some damage?

 

In D&D would you expect a CR4 Monster to hurt a group of level 10 characters?

[incrdbil]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

If the players are in the 300 point range why would you expect a 175 point monster to do some damage?

 

 

I'm thinking the entire party is built on 300 points--ie, 4 75 point characters, or 3 100 point characters. Or (eeek, scary) six 50 point characters who are in for a big problem

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

This is probably not a conversation you want to get into, because it generally turns into He Could vs. She Could, but I'll explain. My d20 campaign isn't built on the normal model; it never was. So a group of Level 10s have, basically, only their natural level abilities and a couple of magic items at their disposal. That's it. The major differences between them and normals are their HP, Feats, and choice of armament.

 

Considering, second, that there's a great deal of voodoo involved in the determination of a CR, one could further reason that a +9 Melee vs. a normal PC with an AC of 22 has a decent chance to hit; and most of the PCs hovered in the 16-20 AC range, so a +9 was fair. Also consider that PCs don't get damage reduction or any sort of Armor power as they do in HERO, and yes, they can do damage.

 

In addition, the monsters have drains, self aids, and short range Teleports which reduce the targets AC. So I'm putting it this way: Would you give Bruce Banner, who's build on the Hulk as the primary and Banner as the secondary form, and clearly has over 400 points, a snowballs chance against a ravening lupine beast if he couldn't flip into the Hulk?

 

Here's another: if your 300 points are spent largely on character development, skills and abilities, and not entirely on +OCV and +DC constructions, and you get hit from behind, are you going to take some damage? Odds are, yes. Will I kill you with this creature? Unlikely! But I'm not trying to kill anyone with it, I'm trying to see if it'll get their attention. Besides, it's not the small ones who are the exciting part.

 

It's the big ones.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

Actually MPA does not require a Full Phase, but the Sweep maneuver does unless you have Rapid HTH Attack. That's often part of how I convert a monster that has a large attack sequence: give it a few 2-point CSLs with the Sweep maneuver. It can make a MPA against one opponent or sweep to attack multiple (at the cost of dropping its DCV, of course).

[Robyn]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

In d20' date=' magic has a Saving Throw. In HERO, it requires an Attack Roll and then has armor, but no 'saving throw' mechanic. Once someone gets tagged up with the spell, it's usually over. So I'm working on builds that are fair, but can survive magical punishment. For example, one of the creatures I'm working on now has a natural Armor 5 v. Magic in d20. But that doesn't mean the same thing in HERO.[/quote']

 

I've spent several months trying to work out a Saving Throw equivalent. (This was before I found the HERO forums and found out about this.) I came up with Insubstantial vs. Magical SFX (only for powers that have an all-or-nothing effect), 50% activation roll, coupled with Damage Reduction 50% vs. Magical SFX (only for all the other powers), 50% activation roll; and then started running the numbers to figure out what my Saving Throws looked like versus various effects after I factored in my bonuses and base saving throws, and trying to figure out where I should adjust the rolls to so that I could be as close as possible to the equivalent probability.

 

I may have mentioned (in another thread) that I suck at math? This is why it took me several months.

 

It also became dreadfully expensive, after buying a separate version of both powers versus each Special Effect. I started playing around with a Multipower then, with the possibility of Trigger, but didn't know about the Instant Reset part. I had also been looking into alternatives such as Drain/Suppress (only versus incoming attacks), and Power Defense or PD/ED against magical attacks. My approach differs from where yours can flourish, though, because I was trying to simulate Saving Throws for a character that would be wandering into a normal HERO game where Saving Throws didn't exist; as a GM, you can build "allows stat roll for half or no effect" right into the spells as a Limitation.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

I've never been able to understand why many players insist on trying to convert the mechanics of other RPGs to the HERO System. Characters or settings, sure. But mechanics puzzles me. If you like the other game's mechanics, why not just play the other game?

[David Johnston]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

I'm doing some d20 Monster Conversions for my Epic Campaign which will soon be going full-bore HERO. In d20' date=' you can declare a 'Full Attack' and go nuts with everything you've got; in the case of the monster I'm translating, that means 'claw/claw/bite' or in this case, "swing, swing, bite" - if I want to hit multiple people with the sword, that's either a Sweep or a Rapid Attack. Okay. But CAN I hit one person multiple times with the full sequence of attacks, i.e., sword swing, sword swing, bite, all on the monster's turn?[/quote']

 

Generally speaking, no. If you think about it, there's no way that you could simultaneously swing two swords at the same target while biting it.

The choreography just doesn't fly. Two sword fighters strike with only one sword at a time. The reason why it happens in d20 is because d20 operates with a much greater degree of abstraction. A d20 combat turn is the equivalent of a full Hero turn, not just a phase. The "full attack" option is the equivalent not doing any blocking and picking manuevers with high OCV and low DCV.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

The reason why it happens in d20 is because d20 operates with a much greater degree of abstraction. A d20 combat turn is the equivalent of a full Hero turn' date=' not just a phase.[/quote']I think this is the key point. If you want to attack more often in HERO, buy more SPD.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

Actually MPA does not require a Full Phase' date=' but the Sweep maneuver does unless you have Rapid HTH Attack.[/quote']

Oops, you're right. It's an Option on the Sidebar of 5ER p360 to restrict MPAs if GMs feel the need to do so. My bad, thinking an Option was a Rule.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

Actually, the answer does appear to be 'Sweep' since you can incorporate multiple manuevers into one volley, it's just a matter of net OCV penalty assessed against the attacker. A Claw/Claw/Bite sequence would simply manifest as a Sweep Attack against a single target. So here's the wrinkle.

 

The Barghest is at 17- with Claw Attacks, and 20- with his bite; do I execute the whole attack as 17- with a -4 penalty? Do I deal with them separately? Thoughts?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

I've never been able to understand why many players insist on trying to convert the mechanics of other RPGs to the HERO System. Characters or settings' date=' sure. But mechanics puzzles me. If you like the other game's mechanics, why not just play the other game? [/quote']

 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Derek Hiemforth again.

 

DRAT!

 

Agree 100%

[Silbeg]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

Actually, the answer does appear to be 'Sweep' since you can incorporate multiple manuevers into one volley, it's just a matter of net OCV penalty assessed against the attacker. A Claw/Claw/Bite sequence would simply manifest as a Sweep Attack against a single target. So here's the wrinkle.

 

The Barghest is at 17- with Claw Attacks, and 20- with his bite; do I execute the whole attack as 17- with a -4 penalty? Do I deal with them separately? Thoughts?

You could give the Barghes +4 HtH, Only to Perform "Claw, Claw, Bite" Sweep attack... (-1?)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

I've never been able to understand why many players insist on trying to convert the mechanics of other RPGs to the HERO System. Characters or settings' date=' sure. But mechanics puzzles me. If you like the other game's mechanics, why not just play the other game? [/quote']

I wasn't all that obsessed myself with converting the exact mechanics, but allowing the target a roll to resist something does seem to be something that is somewhat lacking. Often people try to do it somehow with RSR, so I just went the full distance and defined it as a full shoot off Limitation based on RSR. It makes converting (some) magic and other constructs (poison, traps, etc.) pretty nice as well, since you can do a little more of a one-to-one conversion. No big deal.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

You could give the Barghes +4 HtH' date=' Only to Perform "Claw, Claw, Bite" Sweep attack... (-1?)[/quote']

 

Nope, simply buy +4 OCV with the Sweep manuever for 8 points. You can then perform a 3 attack Sweep with no OCV penalty.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

*sigh* First, I'm not trying to convert another game. I've flipped systems, and I'm making full use of the resources I have at hand; part of that means making use of the books and converting the numbers. That's just how it is. I'm not trying to play d20 in HERO - I'm trying to figure out how to do certain things as questions occur to me. What's the problem there? Why does everyone get on my case (directly or indirectly) in regards to what I'm trying to do in MY game?

 

If I sound annoyed, it's because I am. I asked the question to get an answer; and whether real or implied, I often feel as I go through this process that I meet this invisible resistance barrier. "Thia's trying to play d20 in HERO again." I'm not making up new rules, and I'm not reinventing the wheel. I simply asked "How do I hit someone with multiple attacks at once?" Answer: Sweep.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

Thanks to those of you actively answering the question.

[Robyn]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

I've never been able to understand why many players insist on trying to convert the mechanics of other RPGs to the HERO System. Characters or settings' date=' sure. But mechanics puzzles me. If you like the other game's mechanics, why not just play the other game? [/quote']

 

Because some of you like to play using the mechanics of HERO, and not the mechanics of the original game. But the original game might have mechanics that were built to reflect the concept of its setting and characters, whereas HERO, meant to be more generic so it can suffice for darn near anything, doesn't naturally do so. The idea is to get HERO to support the setting and characters as fully as possible, instead of "just adequately".

[David Johnston]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

I wasn't all that obsessed myself with converting the exact mechanics' date=' but allowing the [i']target[/i] a roll to resist something does seem to be something that is somewhat lacking.l.

 

In D&D when attacked by spells, the caster doesn't roll to see whether he "hits", the defender rolls to see whether he "evades". That's what saving throws are. So if you preferred that approach then the thing to do would be to let the defender roll. Of course, I can recall at least one game where the player always rolled whether he was attacker or defender.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Multiple Attacks in a Phase

 

And really, saving throws didn't enter into the core discussion. Besides, I need to grab a copy of DH 18, where Steve explains HOW to build a Resistance Roll. Which is all I want; just because it ain't in the core rules doesn't mean you can't do it.

 

Damage Reduction 50%, Activation Roll (11-), Modified by the AP of the opponent's power. Welcome to Saving Throws.

 

Thanks for the comment, Robyn. I occassionally get a tad too heated and lose my meaning. Indeed, I'm trying to retain the flavor and capabilities of the creatures while importing them fully and accurately into HERO system mechanics. It isn't as simple a question as 'add more speed' - it's expanding my understanding of how the rules work and what they're meant to do. So far, they do everything. I don't prefer the mechanics of d20, I prefer the mechanics of HERO. But that doesn't mean d20 doesn't have plenty of good source material to plunder.