Desol Move Through

[Dust Raven]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

Okay, Robyn. First we have to define the effects of a Desol that would work that way. Desol that is affected by the SFX of orgainic tissue (would still be unaffected by the presence of the inorganic tank, but if the villain was a living being, he would still impact the hero normally.

 

In this case, I'd rule the Villain is performing an uncontrolled Move Through on the hero, and use the rules for that. If I recall correctly, that means he hits the hero using 0 STR, with velocity damage calculated normally, and both attacker and target take full damage.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

Just to throw out a different question that's related to the topic' date=' what happens if the villain is bearing down on the hero in his superfast tank, and then, instead of dodging, the hero uses her Desolidification power to make herself desolid to the tank - but [i']not[/i] to the villain inside?

 

What happens to the hero, hit by the villain?

 

What happens to the villain, impacting the hero directly but also solid to his tank?

 

What happens to the tank, solid to the person inside?

 

In the case of the 'traditional' examples in the source material (Kitty and Vision again) they normally use a phasing attack that does not appear to change or get any benefit from velocity differences with the target.

 

In the case of the 'yet unknown sfx' that would allow velocity damage to be added to STR bought with APW that the GM aproves you just pro-rate the bonuses based on ALL the advantages involved (I think LL posted details). The standard 1/3 & 1/2 damage for MBy & MThru apply. You always use the 'relative velocity' difference between the attacker and target.

 

Here's a couple of situations I need to check later in 5er & the FAQ...

 

What happens if no Knockback is done when using the Move Through?

Will the attacker STILL take FULL damage?

What if the target has a Damage Shield?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

Okay, Robyn. First we have to define the effects of a Desol that would work that way. Desol that is affected by the SFX of orgainic tissue (would still be unaffected by the presence of the inorganic tank, but if the villain was a living being, he would still impact the hero normally.

 

In this case, I'd rule the Villain is performing an uncontrolled Move Through on the hero, and use the rules for that. If I recall correctly, that means he hits the hero using 0 STR, with velocity damage calculated normally, and both attacker and target take full damage.

 

Uncontrolled is a little harsh. If the character has the sfx you describe he should be able to prepare for the impact (and take 1/2 damage if he does KB) even if he can't initially see them. Being able to hit a person inside s tank in this manner should be no harder than hitting an invisible target (with or without a fringe effect depending on the tank's velocity) in HTH combat.

 

Uncontrolled movement would apply if the the tank had any physical defenses with the Affects Desol advantage.

[Robyn]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

Uncontrolled is a little harsh. If the character has the sfx you describe he should be able to prepare for the impact (and take 1/2 damage if he does KB) even if he can't initially see them. Being able to hit a person inside s tank in this manner should be no harder than hitting an invisible target (with or without a fringe effect depending on the tank's velocity) in HTH combat.

 

Uncontrolled movement would apply if the the tank had any physical defenses with the Affects Desol advantage.

 

What I'm thinking is that the PC does Desolid on the tank, thinking that it's a lone (unmanned) vehicle, and the villain doesn't realize what he's done. The PC expects the tank to pass right through her, so she isn't dodging, and the villain expects to run her over with the tank, so he isn't bracing for impact (the tank out-masses her).

[Dust Raven]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

Uncontrolled is a little harsh. If the character has the sfx you describe he should be able to prepare for the impact (and take 1/2 damage if he does KB) even if he can't initially see them. Being able to hit a person inside s tank in this manner should be no harder than hitting an invisible target (with or without a fringe effect depending on the tank's velocity) in HTH combat.

 

Uncontrolled movement would apply if the the tank had any physical defenses with the Affects Desol advantage.

 

My assessment was based on the idea that neither target expected to be hit by the other, in the way described. The villain is expecting his tank to crush the hero, and the hero is expecting to phase right through the tank. Suddenly there's a collision mid-tank. That's an uncontrolled move through according to the rules, just as if you had a character performing a move through miss his target, but hit the wall behind.

 

And if the tank has Affects Desol on it (you can't put it on Defenses, that's silly; it would go on the Tank's STR), it would just perform it's move thorugh normally, which would be very controlled and use the normal rules for move through.

 

Now, if Dr. Desol was dilibrately trying to hit the driver of the tank by going Desol, Dr. Desol would have to buy APW on his STR to do so. Otherwise he's cheating the system.

[Robyn]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

My assessment was based on the idea that neither target expected to be hit by the other' date=' in the way described. The villain is expecting his tank to crush the hero, and the hero is expecting to phase right through the tank. Suddenly there's a collision mid-tank.[/quote']

 

That's correct. My confusion is over what movements then result, and whether multiple impacts will occur. The villain hits the hero, the hero takes damage and so does the villain. If the hero takes enough damage, she also suffers knockback.

 

But let's say she doesn't. This is where it gets confusing. The villain's forward momentum has been halted by the hero; he can't continue moving through her. However, the tank's forward momentum didn't treat the hero as an obstacle, and now the inside of that vehicle encounters the villain as an immobile object (theoretically, another move-through, this time of the tank on the villain).

 

This could be made worse if the HERO system rules that momentum on a move-through is not completely absorbed; if the attacker can take knockback as well, they would rebound from the impact, and any rules on relative velocity (two rivals playing "chicken" with each other by doing a move-through in opposite directions, neither backing out) for increased move-through damage would come into play.

 

But, even without that part, the tank gets a move-through on the villain, sweeping him back up in its inertia. Assuming that they keep going, they get to repeat this whole performance on the hero (unless her knockback took her out of range). But, while it would make sense for them both to keep moving, it might not happen in the HERO system; the tank might come to a stop since it couldn't move through the villain without letting him make a hole in it (not possible unless the move-through damage exceeded its shell), and then the unmoving tank combined with the newly mobile villain would cause another impact (the villain effectively bouncing around inside the tank until everyone's PD had soaked up the diminishing damage on each successive move-through).

 

And any "rebound" rule would make the tank take knockback if its share of the damage from its own move-through exceeded its Body sufficiently (this was a superfast tank, so it's possible), increasing the bouncing effect on the poor villain.

 

There's a lot of rules on combat in 4th Edition and I'll readily admit I don't understand it well; since FRed may have changed things and Desolid with move-throughs is apparently already an unclear issue (even for people with 5th Edition on hand), I'm probably better off asking rather than trying to work out the complexities on my own

[Dust Raven]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

According to my best understanding of the rules, if the hero takes no KB, everything just stops and no further damage is done.

 

My knowledge of physics, however, says that if the hero takes no KB, then the villain is stopped, but not the tank, which then runs right into the villain's back. The tank then does an uncontrolled movethrough on the villain, with the max damage being the DEF+BODY of the chair he's sitting in (or that of the tank if general if the chair is reinforced like it should be). If this movethrough results in KB, the villain is then thrust directly into the hero again, and both take more danage. If that doesn't result in KB again, then everything stops.

 

Given this is a buttload of number crunching, I'd just go with the default and say everybody just stops after the initial move through is resolved (if there is no KB), but maybe throw in a few more dice of damage just because there's a tank involved (which also increases the chance of KB, thus making the whole no KB thing moot).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

Now' date=' if Dr. Desol was dilibrately trying to hit the driver of the tank by going Desol, Dr. Desol would have to buy APW on his STR to do so. Otherwise he's cheating the system.[/quote']

If the character's Desolidification is Not Against Organics (-whatever), I'd probably let him do a 0 Str (whether controlled or not) Move Through even without APW on his Str. Actually I might be even kinder, but I think that at least is a pretty reasonable allowance.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

If the character's Desolidification is Not Against Organics (-whatever)' date=' I'd probably let him do a 0 Str (whether controlled or not) Move Through even without APW on his Str. Actually I might be even kinder, but I think that at least is a pretty reasonable allowance.[/quote']

 

I might be willing to go with an uncontrolled Move Through (at 0 STR) as well. I won't know for sure until some one with Desol tries this in my games. So far there is only one, and he's affected by astral/spirits SFX, so I'm not sure exactly what will happen. On the up side, since the ghosts all have the same type of desol, whatever he can do, they can do right back!