Desol Move Through

[Dust Raven]

I thought about asking this in the Rules Questions board, but wanted a broader response (I would still like an official answer from you though Mr. Long ). Of course, as far as I know, this has already been asked, but a quick search of the FAQ and the Questions board didn't turn anything up.

 

Anyway... If a character is currently Desol, has Affects Physical World for his full STR, can be perform Move Throughs and Move Bys and get extra damage from velocity? Or does the character have to buy APW on his Movement Power (used in the attack) or extra APW in a Naked Advantage for as much damage classes as expected to do in such attacks?

[cutsleeve]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

I would say that he can affect the realy world with the full move through without buying APW for his movement.

 

Really if you think about it it starts becoming complex.

 

If the character is desolid then they have no mass (at least in the classical sense) meaning doing a move by period would be useless.

 

Overall its not the movement that does the damage its the solidity of the object that does and thats what APW simulates. Place it on strngth and now your character isnt absolutely incoporeal he can affect the real world. He can pick stuff up and move it around and throw it.

 

Basically if he has the ability to throw a punch and have it do damage then he should be able to do a move by or move through. They are the same thing the only differance is the speed f the attack. Its all matter being propelled at a given speed.

 

Its the definition of mass thats quirky since some desolid forms dont have any mass they are fully incoporeal. That means that shouldnt even be able to punch.

 

this can be a midigating circumstance depending on special eefect and genre conventions.

[Frenchman]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

As a default, I'd say they need to buy more APW than just their strength, but I wouldn't be adamant about that.

If the character has only 6" of running, then its not a big deal- they are only doing 2d6 more. If they have more running than that, it may be a problem.

If the player asks me this at character creation, or starts using it a lot, I would probly make them buy it, but if they only happen on it by a happy accident and don't abuse it, I'd let it slide.

[alexraccoon]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

Isn't a move through as much about your physical body/mass as it is about your strength in move by and move through. Perhaps as well as APW on your strength it should also be applied against your body if you wanted to use such manuevers.

[Alibear]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

GM call: Just on Strength but you would still take your half of the damage of the move through.

Al

[prestidigitator]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

If you have AP and Autofire on your Str do you have to pay extra for them to be able to add Move Through or Move By damage? I see how it could get abusive with any of these Advantages. You buy them for a little bit of Str and then you use your mugundous Movement Power to add a crudload of damage (which isn't even capped at double the Base Damage; see 5ER p. 406--middle left).

 

As for logical solidity issues, that's just going to be up to the GM from the start, but I don't personally see any problem with allowing the extra movement-based damage if the character's Str can already affect solid targets.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

Isn't a move through as much about your physical body/mass as it is about your strength in move by and move through. Perhaps as well as APW on your strength it should also be applied against your body if you wanted to use such manuevers.

 

Actually, the damage calculated from a Move Through or Move By has nothing to do with a characters mass. Only his STR and his velocity.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

I had a character munchkin this out for me. He presented a character with Desolid, 30 STR APW, and a gun. I though he'd be using the gun, which construction I carefully monitored (he had munchkin tendencies). I didn't notice the boot jets with all the NCM levels tacked on. Sure enough, the first time he got into combat, he immediately began to move/through/by at NCM speeds. He never drew his gun, and totally blew apart the campaign limits.

I called him on it and didn't let him play the character again.

 

Keith "He pouted" Curtis

[The Souljourner]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

Yeah, I'm with the guys who say you don't need APW on your movement. I honestly don't even know what that would do on a movement power unless it was also UAA.

 

Is it possible to abuse APW on strength, but then again, like others said, it's possible to abuse a lot of advantages on Strength. That's what GMs are for

 

-Nate

[alexraccoon]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

Actually' date=' the damage calculated from a Move Through or Move By has nothing to do with a characters mass. Only his STR and his velocity.[/quote']

Speaking from real world experience Ist occasion rugby as an eleven year old I ran into the ref a teacher who weighed twice at least what I did and I got sent flying. recently the same thing happened in reverse when some punk kid thought they'd try to shove me ought of their way and they ended on their ****.

 

game mechanics may make a movethrough only be related to str and velocity but that mainly refers to standard characters. If the character is desolid and wishes to affect the real world using move throughs and move bys then they are clipping their target with their body (not the cha) and the Body cha is closest to a persons mass out of the characteristics.

[alexraccoon]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

As another thought on desolid use of move throughs and movebys (assuming they are already allowed by the GM) perhaps some additional control roll to allow for timing to enable the hit to be made and if the character fails to hit his target then the target or other nearby characters should be allowed to make a target of opportunity attack on the desolid without needing the affects desolid advantage. Reasoning that if the character is partially solid to perform these types of attacks and takes the standard damage in return then they are also temporarily vulnerable to attack. This attack could be only partially applied or subject to a reasonable negative on their roll.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

Based on the way HA and MA damage stacks in wierd ways I would hazard a guess that only STR needs to have the advantage.

 

However, the sfx of the character's powers are very important here.

 

The 2 classic examples of desolidification: Vision and Kitty Pryde have very distinct ways of flying and affecting solid objects. How often do they use the affect solid power to punch or just affect the surface of a target? Also, I seem to recall that both of their flight powers are based on lowering their mass/weight to effectively be lighter than air which seems to be very gliding like. Not much inherent forward movement involved in either case.

 

I would at least ask the player who wants to be able to do movethroughs to come up with a sfx that is as internally consistent as these examples.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

As per the section of the rulebook dealing with added damage from Movement for Advantaged attacks (5E p. 272 - 5ER p. 408), Movement damage is prorated for the Advantages used. So, I would say that depending on the SFX of Desolid, the character could gain the benefits of a Move By or Move Through, but you'd have to calculate the proportion of that which would apply to STR with APW.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

Speaking from real world experience Ist occasion rugby as an eleven year old I ran into the ref a teacher who weighed twice at least what I did and I got sent flying. recently the same thing happened in reverse when some punk kid thought they'd try to shove me ought of their way and they ended on their ****.

 

game mechanics may make a movethrough only be related to str and velocity but that mainly refers to standard characters. If the character is desolid and wishes to affect the real world using move throughs and move bys then they are clipping their target with their body (not the cha) and the Body cha is closest to a persons mass out of the characteristics.

 

Well, for one thing, the mechanics of the game don't equal reality. For another, there is no "mass" characteristic. It's mostly a SFX, though it is utilized directly by Size Powers. Also, BODY may not be the closest thing to mass there is. 20 BODY can represent a 98lb weakling with an iron will to live as well as an average guy who just happens to have a LOT of meat on his bones. I'd hardly call it appropriate for the 98lb weakling to get the same advantage to doing move though damage as the heavy. As it happens, though mostly due to concept, the heavy is likely to have a much higher STR than the weakling, and thus do more damage anyway.

 

One more thing: Desol does not equal 0 mass. It just means the character can pass through objects and ignore damage from attacks.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

Based on the way HA and MA damage stacks in wierd ways I would hazard a guess that only STR needs to have the advantage.

 

However, the sfx of the character's powers are very important here.

 

The 2 classic examples of desolidification: Vision and Kitty Pryde have very distinct ways of flying and affecting solid objects. How often do they use the affect solid power to punch or just affect the surface of a target? Also, I seem to recall that both of their flight powers are based on lowering their mass/weight to effectively be lighter than air which seems to be very gliding like. Not much inherent forward movement involved in either case.

 

I would at least ask the player who wants to be able to do movethroughs to come up with a sfx that is as internally consistent as these examples.

 

The 3rd "classic" examle would be Mr. Fantastic, who doesn't have any reduction in mass at all, and in fact remains completely "solid", but just can pass through tiny openings and rolls his body around impacts.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

As per the section of the rulebook dealing with added damage from Movement for Advantaged attacks (5E p. 272 - 5ER p. 408)' date=' Movement damage is prorated for the Advantages used. So, I would say that depending on the SFX of Desolid, the character could gain the benefits of a Move By or Move Through, but you'd have to calculate the proportion of that which would apply to STR with APW.[/quote']

 

I missed that section on prorating the damage from velocity. That makes a LOT of sense and seems to make everything else okay (everything else being just putting APW on STR).

[keithcurtis]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

The player in my camapaign took his SFX from a villain I used. The SFX was that the person was slightly phased out of reality (whatever that means) so that all e-m and kinetic energy directed towards his person was shifted into another dimension.

 

Keith "works for a villain" Curtis

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

The 3rd "classic" examle would be Mr. Fantastic' date=' who doesn't have any reduction in mass at all, and in fact remains completely "solid", but just can pass through tiny openings and rolls his body around impacts.[/quote']

 

and most stretching characters with desol like this usually take it with a limitation does not stop damage which makes it a moot example with regard to the topic of this thread.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

and most stretching characters with desol like this usually take it with a limitation does not stop damage which makes it a moot example with regard to the topic of this thread.

 

I disagree. I've seen just as many strethcing characters with desol that didn't take that limitation as I have those who do. In any case, my point (which is hardly moot) is that Desol does not mean "massless", it merely means "you can't hurt me and I walk through walls", and there are SFX which support a desol character that retains his full mass in physical reality.

[KA.]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

One thing this thread got me thinking about is:

Exactly what Defenses would apply to the Move Through damage that the Desolid Character inflicts on himself?

 

I guess it would depend on how abusive this technique turned out to be in actual gameplay, but my first reaction would be to say that, based on SFX, only Defenses bought with Affects Physical World would apply to the self-inflicted damage.

 

I guess I see it like 'shorting out' the two dimensions or something like that.

 

If you are Desolid, you can be Desolid and not get hurt.

 

You can even buy attacks that will affect those in the Physical world.

 

But, doing a Move-Through into the Physcial World seems like you are 'shorting out' your Phasing ability at the moment you do damage.

 

I would probably not allow someone without an "Affects Desolid" attack to hit you at that time, because that doesn't really seem fair, but the idea that you might very well hurt yourself by deliberately using your power in such a wierd way, does seem fair.

 

Options :

1) Perhaps you would need to make a DEX roll (Power Skill Roll) to time your Attack so well that you can use your Normal Defenses against the Damage.

 

2) Perhaps you can only use the Defenses that you bought as "Affects Desolid" against the Self-Inflicted Damage.

 

3) Perhaps some random factor could decide which set of Defenses you get to use.

 

KA.

[casualplayer]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

This thread is actually making wonder why characters don't have to buy APW on their movement when they are Desolid. Feet passing thru the ground aren't much good for running.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

I had a character munchkin this out for me. He presented a character with Desolid, 30 STR APW, and a gun. I though he'd be using the gun, which construction I carefully monitored (he had munchkin tendencies). I didn't notice the boot jets with all the NCM levels tacked on. Sure enough, the first time he got into combat, he immediately began to move/through/by at NCM speeds. He never drew his gun, and totally blew apart the campaign limits.

I called him on it and didn't let him play the character again.

 

Keith "He pouted" Curtis

Err...what I'm wondering is how he managed to hit anyone with his 0 OCV (multiplied after all modfiers are added in as per the standard order of CV calculation). Doesn't seem very munchkiny to me.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

One thing this thread got me thinking about is:

Exactly what Defenses would apply to the Move Through damage that the Desolid Character inflicts on himself?

 

I guess it would depend on how abusive this technique turned out to be in actual gameplay, but my first reaction would be to say that, based on SFX, only Defenses bought with Affects Physical World would apply to the self-inflicted damage.

 

I guess I see it like 'shorting out' the two dimensions or something like that.

 

If you are Desolid, you can be Desolid and not get hurt.

 

You can even buy attacks that will affect those in the Physical world.

 

But, doing a Move-Through into the Physcial World seems like you are 'shorting out' your Phasing ability at the moment you do damage.

 

I would be inclined to consider the damage as part of the maneuver itself. A Desolid character who Grabs a second target still takes the DCV penalty, and a Desolid character using a Move Through would still apply half the damage to himself. As all defenses would normally apply using the maneuver, all defenses would apply. I don't see any need to make it more complex than that.

 

I don't believe anything says that an attack which affects the solid world would not also affect a character who is desolid with the same SFX (ie assuming I would allow the two characters to affect each other without ASW, there is no reason the ASW attack would not also affect the Desolid target). With that in mind, the Desolid character should be able to affect himself with his ASW power. It's no big stretch to consider the incidental damage from a Moveby/Movethrough to similarly affect the character.

 

Now, the next obvious question is whether I can also buy Personal Immunity on my STR, which would be a pretty inexpensive way of (at least arguably) avoiding that damage. I think I'd make you pay the PI on both the STR and the movement power, as both inflict damage, to be fully immune from incidental move through damage. This assumes I'd allow it in the first place, since I consider the ability to attack while Desolid and virtually immune to counterattack to potentially be hugely unbalancing.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

I disagree. I've seen just as many strethcing characters with desol that didn't take that limitation as I have those who do. In any case' date=' my point (which is hardly moot) is that Desol does not mean "massless", it merely means "you can't hurt me and I walk through walls", and there are SFX which support a desol character that retains his full mass in physical reality.[/quote']

 

If we are talking about full 'Invulnerability-esq' desol I would probably encourage the player to buy a No Range Energy Blast with APW linked to the appropriate movement power instead of allowing movement to augment his APW STR damage. This has a major balancing effect. The EB version is going to have a staggering amount of Active Points but reasonable Real Points. Both of these can then be judged in a more 'apples to apples' comparison with other powers than the traditionaly movement method.

 

I'd have to play around with the numbers on HD to see how it balances with the pro-rated movement bonuses already pointed out by others.

[Robyn]

Re: Desol Move Through

 

Just to throw out a different question that's related to the topic, what happens if the villain is bearing down on the hero in his superfast tank, and then, instead of dodging, the hero uses her Desolidification power to make herself desolid to the tank - but not to the villain inside?

 

What happens to the hero, hit by the villain?

 

What happens to the villain, impacting the hero directly but also solid to his tank?

 

What happens to the tank, solid to the person inside?