Alternate hit roll

[JmOz]

I know it is out there, mathimaticaly the same, but easier for a player to grasp, what is it? I know Ben uses it...

[Tom Carman]

Re: Alternate hit roll

 

Originally posted by JmOz

I know it is out there, mathimaticaly the same, but easier for a player to grasp, what is it? I know Ben uses it...

3d6 + OCV - 10 = DCV hit

 

I think it's easier to subtract a fixed number (10) than a varying one (3d6). This formula produces a "higher is better" roll.

[xanatos]

I think it's easier to subtract a fixed number (10) than a varying one (3d6). This formula produces a "higher is better" roll.

And you can pre-compute OCV-10! (so you obtain something like 3d6+x where x = OCV - 10 and x quite often < 0 in low powered campaigns)

Another advantage is that the GM can hide the DCV of the enemy.

 

Bye

Max

[tiger]

Re: Re: Alternate hit roll

 

Originally posted by Tom Carman

3d6 + OCV - 10 = DCV hit

 

I think it's easier to subtract a fixed number (10) than a varying one (3d6). This formula produces a "higher is better" roll.

 

Then what good are +to DCV?

[Ben Seeman]

OCV + 11 is the "Magic Number", as we like to call it. Subtract your attack roll (3d6) from it and the result is the DCV you hit.

 

OCV + 11 - 3d6 = DCV

[Intrope]

Also:

 

OCV + 3d6 = DCV + 10

 

Not that different than what everyone else is proposing, but you can precompute DCV + 10.

 

This is also a little better than precomputing OCV - 10, since OCV -10 is usually negative (which isn't really an improvement) but DCV + 10 will be positive nearly always.

 

If and When 6th edition (or 5.5 ) hits the scene, I'd like to see this made official (along with equivalent skill check changes).

[Tempuswolf]

Reversal of Polarity

 

There are alot of alternate methods. I use

 

Die Roll + OCV >= 10 + DCV

 

It's symmetric (easy to remember) and there's no subtraction (microseconds slower than addition).

 

You can use the fact that the bell curve for probabilities on 3d6 is symmetric to "reverse the polarity" on all your die rolls. The chance to roll a number N or less is equal to the probability to roll the number, twenty-one minus N, or more.

 

P(N-)=P((21-N)+)

 

For example, P(3-)=P(18+) only one chance in 216 rolling the 3 or rolling the 18. Likewise, P(18-)=P(3+), 100%, any roll you make is going to be 18 or less as well as 3 or greater. In the middle, P(10-) is 1/2, half the rolls are 10 or less, and P(11+) again 1/2, half the rolls are 11 or more.

 

That's where the formula for the "to hit" roll above comes from. Normally,

 

Die Roll <= 11 + OCV - DCV

 

but that probability is the same as

 

Die Roll >= 21 - (11 + OCV - DCV)

Die Roll >= 10 - OCV + DCV

Die Roll + OCV >= 10 + DCV

 

This form also has the advantage of being virtually the same as the 3000 lb gorilla's BAB(OCV) and AC(DCV), so it may ease the strain of redocrination of players imported from the jungles of Deetwentie.

 

You can reverse the polarity for all you rolls in Hero using the symmetry rule P(N-)=P((21-N)+). The familiar 8-, 11-, 14- become the slightly strange 13+, 10+, 7+. For skill checks, the ease of use gets a bit gummy (unless you are coming from D20 in which case it is pretty natural).

 

Normally,

 

Die Roll <= 9 + CHAR/5 + Levels

 

so using P(N-)=P((21-N)+)

 

Die Roll >= 21 - (9 + CHAR/5 + Levels)

Die Roll + (CHAR/5 + Levels) >= 12

 

So add your levels and your innate ability to do the skill to your 3d6 roll and beat a 12. The GM can adjust the difficulty of the task up or down, by either giving you a bonus or penalty to your roll or moving the target number 12 up or down. A Familiarity is a 8- or 13+, so Die Roll -1 >= 12.

 

The only place where reversing the polarity becomes more trouble than its worth, is when you have skills with critical checks, ie you need a 12- to make the skill roll normally but special benefits ensue if you get 6-. The rather arcane formula for this condition is (someone check my math here):

 

Die Roll + (CHAR/5 + Levels)/2 >= 16.5

 

So a total reversal of polarity does have some pitfalls.

 

EDIT: What Intrope said. I am a slow typer.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Ben Seeman

OCV + 11 is the "Magic Number", as we like to call it. Subtract your attack roll (3d6) from it and the result is the DCV you hit.

 

OCV + 11 - 3d6 = DCV

This is the method Ive used for years. It works very well.

[Xandarr]

Re: Reversal of Polarity

 

Originally posted by Tempuswolf

There are alot of alternate methods. I use

 

Die Roll + OCV >= 10 + DCV

 

I call this the "Target Number" system, and I use it in my Fantasy Hero games. It's wonderful. All I have to do is figure the DCV of the defender, add 10 and I've got a target to shoot for. I don't have to tell my players, and they don't have to ask. They can just figure their OCV, add the 3d6 die roll and tell me the sum. If it equals or exceeds the Target Number, I tell them they hit. If not, I tell them they missed. It lets them gauge an approximate OCV, but since I don't tell them the specific maneuver the creature is using (I just describe the action and let the players guess... lot's of fun). If they fight the opponent for a few phases, they can usually narrow down his OCV/DCV to within 2 or 3, but they can never be 100% sure.

 

Originally posted by Tempuswolf

This form also has the advantage of being virtually the same as the 3000 lb gorilla's BAB(OCV) and AC(DCV), so it may ease the strain of redocrination of players imported from the jungles of Deetwentie.

 

I agree with this as well. Having a tie in to something familiar makes the mechanics of Hero much easier for new players to grasp.

 

Originally posted by Tempuswolf

You can reverse the polarity for all you rolls in Hero using the symmetry rule P(N-)=P((21-N)+). The familiar 8-, 11-, 14- become the slightly strange 13+, 10+, 7+. For skill checks, the ease of use gets a bit gummy (unless you are coming from D20 in which case it is pretty natural)..

 

The easy way to avoid this confusion is to leave the skill roll numbers where they are and set a Target Number of 21 for all standard skill checks. Roll 3d6 and add your skill level; if the total is 21 or better, you succeed. This makes the odds of success exactly the same as rolling the number or less on 3d6. Not to mention it makes adjustments easy. For harder tasks, increase the Target Number, for routine tasks, reduce it. It also makes the skill checks open ended, and routine tasks can be automatic successes if you like. If a character has a skill level at 18, you can eschew the die roll and say that all standard skills are automatically successful (granted this isn't any different from having an 18 now, but it's still easy to see why it's automatic).

 

 

Originally posted by Tempuswolf

Normally,

Die Roll <= 9 + CHAR/5 + Levels

so using P(N-)=P((21-N)+)

Die Roll >= 21 - (9 + CHAR/5 + Levels)

Die Roll + (CHAR/5 + Levels) >= 12

 

So add your levels and your innate ability to do the skill to your 3d6 roll and beat a 12. The GM can adjust the difficulty of the task up or down, by either giving you a bonus or penalty to your roll or moving the target number 12 up or down. A Familiarity is a 8- or 13+, so Die Roll -1 >= 12.

I think you're possibly introducing some confusion here by removing the 9 from the skill roll this way. You're basically making someone's raw ability the main indicator, which is counterintuitive to the way the system works. With this method, the average Normal Human has a base skill ability of 2 instead of 11. So by rolling 10 or better, they succeed the skill roll. But taking out the 9+char/5 in this way requires significant alteration of the character sheet, or ignoring the way standard skills are listed in the book. I think keeping the 9+char/5 and setting the target number higher (in this case, 21) is easier to understand. Take your skill roll and add your die roll. If it's 21 or better, you succeed. The GM can adjust the difficulty of the skill by adjusting the target number.

 

Originally posted by Tempuswolf

The only place where reversing the polarity becomes more trouble than its worth, is when you have skills with critical checks, ie you need a 12- to make the skill roll normally but special benefits ensue if you get 6-. The rather arcane formula for this condition is (someone check my math here):

 

Die Roll + (CHAR/5 + Levels)/2 >= 16.5

 

So a total reversal of polarity does have some pitfalls.

 

Well I'm not sure about the math of your formula above, but going with the Target Number method, you have 2 options depending on your preference for critical success. Some people use half the die roll as critical success. If that's your method, you can still use it. Just half your skill and add your die roll. If it exceeds the Target Number, the success is critical. Granted, this method does require you to count the dice twice, so it's does slow things down a little. The method that I use (and I know that some others on the board do too) is that a critical success is 10 points away from a standard success. In the Hero system as written, this would make a crit a 5- if the basic roll is 15-. You have less chance of crits with this method unless your skill roll is better than 20-. The upside is that this method is much easier to compute when using the Target Number system; you get a crit if 3d6 + skill is a total of 31 or higher. In my group, this is easy to compute.

 

For example, let's say Sherlock Holmes has a KS: Tobacco on a 17. Unless he completely botches the roll, he can recognize any tobacco on sight/smell. Scotland Yard asks for his help at the scene of a crime, and during the investigation, he finds cigar ashes left behind by the perp. Sherlock's player asks what the chances are of determining exactly what brand the criminal was smoking, and the GM says it would take a critical success to do so, since he has no cigar butt to work with. Sherlock knows his target number for critical success is 31, so he needs a 14 or better on the roll. To improve his odds, he studies the ashes with his magnifying glass (Gm gives +1 for this), and takes a full 5 minutes to examine them (+3 for time bonus). This brings his roll down to 10 or better and he takes his shot, rolling a 12. Success! Sherlock heads to the local Humidor shop to make further inquiries.

 

Granted, this is an extreme example. Using the half-method, keep the target number at 21, and instead Sherlock's base skill is cut in half from 17 down to 9 (rounded up in favor of the player). Adding 4 for the previous bonuses gives a base of 13+3d6 to hit a 21. The player needs to roll 8 or better. Slightly better odds than the +10 method. Either way is good, depending on how much math you want to do.

 

This doesn't change the fact that you can still have critical success and failure based solely on the dice rolls. 3 or 4 is critical failure in my games, and 17 or 18 is critical success. So basically the only way to improve your odds of a critical hit is if your target is really low, or your skill is really high. Still, there are the occasional crits on prone bodies, making the coup-de-grace an exciting roll.

 

YMMV, but this has worked out really well for my group and combats go much faster since I switched to using Target Numbers.

 

Helpfully,

Steve

[Tempuswolf]

Re: Re: Reversal of Polarity

 

Originally posted by Xandarr

I think you're possibly introducing some confusion here by removing the 9 from the skill roll this way.

 

This was to more closely resemble to D20's system of Die Roll + Ranks + Char Modifier vs. Difficulty Class. I like your system since it makes use of the number spat out by software geared for the normal rolling method and since the ugliness of the critical success goes away mostly.

 

Originally posted by Xandarr

Granted, this is an extreme example. Using the half-method, keep the target number at 21, and instead Sherlock's base skill is cut in half from 17 down to 9 (rounded up in favor of the player). Adding 4 for the previous bonuses gives a base of 13+3d6 to hit a 21. The player needs to roll 8 or better. Slightly better odds than the +10 method. Either way is good, depending on how much math you want to do.

 

I think that the skill modifiers are halved too. From above a 17- with +4 skill mods becomes 21- for normal skill success. Critical would be 10-. Using the symmetric rule, this becomes 11+ which would take 21/2 = 10 1/2 over your Target Number of 21.

 

I'm looking forward to springing this new skill method on my charges next time I GM. Thanks, Xandarr.

[Xandarr]

Re: Reversal of Polarity

 

Originally posted by Tempuswolf

I think that the skill modifiers are halved too. From above a 17- with +4 skill mods becomes 21- for normal skill success. Critical would be 10-. Using the symmetric rule, this becomes 11+ which would take 21/2 = 10 1/2 over your Target Number of 21.

Yes, of course, you're right about halving the modifiers, too. I'm not sure if I understood your math correctly, but under the Target Number system, you'd have a total skill of 17+4= 21. Cut in half rounding up leaves 11, so a critical success would require a 10 or better roll. I think that's what you just said, but I couldn't be sure.

 

Originally posted by Tempuswolf

I'm looking forward to springing this new skill method on my charges next time I GM. Thanks, Xandarr.

Glad I could help!

 

Genius in training,

Steve