Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

[OddHat]

Just a thought, inspired by other threads and by some things I've done in my own games.

 

What if Block counted as a Self Only Force Wall, only vs attacks that can be blocked, with the current Block mechanic considered as if it were an opposed skill roll?

 

The Block would have a DEF of (STR DC+MA DC), +1 per 1 point.

 

So, Joe Average with his STR 10 (2 DCs) tries to block a punch from Bob Average. Joe makes his roll, and has a 2 DEF block. If Bob rolls less than 2 Body, Joe takes no damage. If Bob rolls 3 or more Body, Joe gets his normal defenses +2 vs the full damage that Bob rolled.

 

Kung Fu Joe has a STR 15 and +3 HtH DCs. He blocks against Bob the Brick. KFJ's block has a Def of (3+3) 6. Bob the Brick will need to do more than 6 Body to have any effect at all. If he manages it, Joe takes damage as usual, but gains +6 DEF.

 

Missile Deflection becomes a straight 5 point maneuver, allowing you to apply your Block Def against Ranged attacks. STR 10 Missile Deflectors without extra MA DCs will be able to deflect thrown rocks. Missile Deflectors with large numbers of MA and STR DCs will be able to deflect almost anything that can be deflected.

 

If you want a true personal force wall with no rolls involved, you buy it as normal.

[CBikle]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

There are so many threads on Block rules all of a sudden.

 

On the 2008 DOJ schedule: The Ultimate Block rules compendium, with over 200 pages of blocking rules and 20 pages of terrible art.

 

Just kidding.

[OddHat]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

There are so many threads on Block rules all of a sudden.

 

On the 2008 DOJ schedule: The Ultimate Block rules compendium, with over 200 pages of blocking rules and 20 pages of terrible art.

 

Just kidding.

 

Yes.

 

Only 12 of the art pages are terrible.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

Yes.

 

Only 12 of the art pages are terrible.

 

 

The rules only run 198 pages. The other 34 are sample characters designed around the new Block rules.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

This approach, like the others recently popped up, effectively weakens the maneuver. Who will use it? Not the traditional low DEF Martial Artist, whose DC's are commonly lower than his opponents. Bricks are generally slow, so they don't waste an action on defense, they trust to their passive defenses. The Energy Projector's STR is likely too low for a block or missile defect to be effective, so they won't use it.

 

End of the day, all we do is eliminate Block and Missile Deflection from the game, except for some very rare characters designed to take advantage of them.

[OddHat]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

This approach' date=' like the others recently popped up, effectively weakens the maneuver. Who will use it? Not the traditional low DEF Martial Artist, whose DC's are commonly lower than his opponents.[/quote']

 

Hm. Do martial artists in official material actually average fewer DCs than non martial artists? I haven't checked for this in the CU, but characters submitted for my games tend to fall into the same DC range no matter what their actual SFX.

 

It does weaken the maneuver in Pixie vs Giant cases if the player doesn't take advantage of the +1 Def per 1 point option. I'm not convinced that's a bad thing.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

Another potential issue with this approach is that it seems to assume that all Blocks are countering force with force. If the SFX of my "Block" is that I slide to the side a bit to make your attack glance off, then my DCs of attack don't seem relevant.

[OddHat]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

Another potential issue with this approach is that it seems to assume that all Blocks are countering force with force. If the SFX of my "Block" is that I slide to the side a bit to make your attack glance off' date=' then my DCs of attack don't seem relevant.[/quote']

 

Yup. There's a certain blurring of SFX between Block, Dodge, and a high DCV. This would favor the Hard Block SFX option for the Block mechanic, though you could still do a soft block (in a martial arts sense) by using Dodge.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

Hm. Do martial artists in official material actually average fewer DCs than non martial artists? I haven't checked for this in the CU' date=' but characters submitted for my games tend to fall into the same DC range no matter what their actual SFX.[/quote']

 

I'm not looking at official CU, but let's assume we have a 60 STR Brick (12 DC). IME, the typical MA would have STR (say 20), some martial maneuvers including Martial Strike and Offensive Strike, and some extra DC's to get his Offensive Strike up to 12d6. Since Offensive Strike has +4 DC,s, our MA buys 4 extra MA DC's. When he blocks, he gets STR (4) + MA (+4) = 8 DC's to counter a 12DC hit, so his Block nets a huge +8 PD against the Brick's punch. Why bother blocking?

 

Maybe I'm misreading your DC calculation, since it sounds like it's not an issue. Do your MA's use Block?

 

I also agree with Derek that this, and all the other variants, restrict the SFX of Block to direct force vs force opposition, which I find to be an excessive restriction.

[OddHat]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

I'm not looking at official CU' date=' but let's assume we have a 60 STR Brick (12 DC). IME, the typical MA would have STR (say 20), some martial maneuvers including Martial Strike and Offensive Strike, and some extra DC's to get his Offensive Strike up to 12d6. Since Offensive Strike has +4 DC,s, our MA buys 4 extra MA DC's. When he blocks, he gets STR (4) + MA (+4) = 8 DC's to counter a 12DC hit, so his Block nets a huge +8 PD against the Brick's punch. Why bother blocking?[/quote']

 

Against the Brick, why indeed. He should Dodge. He can Block against another Martial Artist, for that valuable first move in their next shared phase. He was already probably acting before the Brick.

Do your MA's use Block?

 

I'd stress that this is not a playtested build. It's a suggestion for campaigns where the question of "How does a Str 10 Block a STR 100" might come up. If the SFX for the Block is a quick side step, it's not a problem. If the SFX is a Chin Block, it can be.

 

I also agree with Derek that this, and all the other variants, restrict the SFX of Block to direct force vs force opposition, which I find to be an excessive restriction.

 

I partially agree with this. It certainly makes clearer what's mechanically a Block vs. what's mechanically a Dodge.

[Rkane_1]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

This approach, like the others recently popped up, effectively weakens the maneuver. Who will use it? Not the traditional low DEF Martial Artist, whose DC's are commonly lower than his opponents. Bricks are generally slow, so they don't waste an action on defense, they trust to their passive defenses. The Energy Projector's STR is likely too low for a block or missile defect to be effective, so they won't use it.

 

End of the day, all we do is eliminate Block and Missile Deflection from the game, except for some very rare characters designed to take advantage of them.

 

Actually, this ain't bad. Oddhat. Though since damage is now a possibility, you may want to consider a reward for the Blocker. As Hugh pointed out, the dodge is less trouble and nets no chance of being hit. Some type of reward for Block would be in order to a penatly for the Dodge. Otherwise the Dodge would be chosen everytime. But I like this idea. You should run with it a litle more and figure out some extrapolations of its effects.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

Against the Brick' date=' why indeed. He should Dodge. He can Block against another Martial Artist, for that valuable first move in their next shared phase. He was already probably acting before the Brick.[/quote']

 

Against another MA, my choices become:

 

(a) Block to take a free shot at +8 PD, since the opponent can presumably dish out the same 12d6 damage - maybe 10d6 since he's attacking an MA and may value OCV/DCV over sheer damage - but still unlikely to avoid the damage,

 

( Martial Dodge and greatly reduce the chance of getting hit

 

© rely on native DCV and my own defenses if that fails, and get the next strike for sure since I don't use up this phase

 

If the Block were the best choice, all it means is that he aborts to Block in our shared phase, doesn't it?

[OddHat]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

 

If the Block were the best choice, all it means is that he aborts to Block in our shared phase, doesn't it?

 

That remains a problem under the current system; so, not mine.

 

Would the idea of a FW block appeal to you more if it were 3 DEF per 2 DC? So STR 10 Joe Normal gets a DEF 3 FW for each successful block, while STR 20 + 4 DC Joe Karate gets 12?

 

At what level would it appeal?

 

If never, how would you solve the problem of a "Take it on the Chin" SFX blocker managing to block a blow from a much stronger character?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

That remains a problem under the current system; so, not mine.

 

Would the idea of a FW block appeal to you more if it were 3 DEF per 2 DC? So STR 10 Joe Normal gets a DEF 3 FW for each successful block, while STR 20 + 4 DC Joe Karate gets 12?

 

Of course, now our 60 STR Brick gets 18, making his blocks impenetrable. It's adding a further complexity and providing a new advantage to certain archetypes (bricks for sure, MA's to a lesser extent) over others (any that lack MA and STR). I don't see a viable means of making the disproportion go away.

 

If never' date=' how would you solve the problem of a "Take it on the Chin" SFX blocker managing to block a blow from a much stronger character?[/quote']

 

Having allowed the Take it on the Chin SFX, I should either be prepared to accept that he CAN block a blow from a much stronger character, or require he take a limitation on his Block because there are things other characters' Block can accomplish that his cannot.

 

That would also give the Martial Artist, speedster or energy projector the ability to choose NOT to take such a limitation, leveling the playing field.

[Rkane_1]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

Of course' date=' now our 60 STR Brick gets 18, making his blocks impenetrable. It's adding a further complexity and providing a new advantage to certain archetypes (bricks for sure, MA's to a lesser extent) over others (any that lack MA and STR). I don't see a viable means of making the disproportion go away.[/quote']

 

But these moves would be best suited for these type of characters. Other more agile opponents can dodge. I think one of the problems is Dodge is too good in the game. Perhaps an OCV penalty for having your last maneuver be a Dodge would make Block more appealling. It makes sense that the action following a Dodge maneuver would be at a small penalty considering your entire mindset and body was just in a "avoid contact at all all costs" defensive mode. Makes sense that you may have a small penatly on OCV until you take another action.

 

 

Just an idea.

[Lord Mhoram]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

Against the Brick' date=' why indeed. He should Dodge. He can Block against another Martial Artist, for that valuable first move in their next shared phase. He was already probably acting before the Brick.[/quote']

 

I bring up, as I do in these threads, Karate Kid who has hard blocked Superboy multiple times.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

But these moves would be best suited for these type of characters. Other more agile opponents can dodge. I think one of the problems is Dodge is too good in the game. Perhaps an OCV penalty for having your last maneuver be a Dodge would make Block more appealling. It makes sense that the action following a Dodge maneuver would be at a small penalty considering your entire mindset and body was just in a "avoid contact at all all costs" defensive mode. Makes sense that you may have a small penatly on OCV until you take another action.

 

So, first we weaken Block. Then we are surprised that players gravitate away from Block to some other maneuver, Dodge for defense. So we'll weaken Dodge.

 

The penalty for Dodge is that you have no OCV, and no attack, until you have another phase, since you used that one on all-out defense.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

On reflection, two things bug me about this variant. One is the disadvantage of MA vs STR. The second is that a Block will fail (provide a small PD bonus) about half the time against an equal powered opponent.

 

To the latter, wasn't the idea that someone vastly MORE powerful could punch through the Block? A guy 10 STR lower can punch through this Block on a not-too-unlikely roll. This is easily fixed by making the standard Block provide, say, a DC + 2 benefit, so the attacker needs a superior punch to stand an even chance of breaking down the block. Want a greater spread to be required? Make it +4. That's someone 16x as strong based on the +5 doubles standard.

 

To Martial Arts, what about providing an additional +4 PD bonus to Martial Block. That will put its PD equal to the Martial Artist's offensive strike DC's.

 

That would make the Block against typical opponents likely to succeed, give a chance even against a moderaltely more powerful opponent, but still see the Block crumble against a vastly more powerful opponent.

 

Lord Mhoram: And KK should still be able to hard block Superboy - he has that many DC's in Martial Arts.

[OddHat]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

On reflection, two things bug me about this variant. One is the disadvantage of MA vs STR. The second is that a Block will fail (provide a small PD bonus) about half the time against an equal powered opponent.

 

To the latter, wasn't the idea that someone vastly MORE powerful could punch through the Block? A guy 10 STR lower can punch through this Block on a not-too-unlikely roll. This is easily fixed by making the standard Block provide, say, a DC + 2 benefit, so the attacker needs a superior punch to stand an even chance of breaking down the block. Want a greater spread to be required? Make it +4. That's someone 16x as strong based on the +5 doubles standard.

 

To Martial Arts, what about providing an additional +4 PD bonus to Martial Block. That will put its PD equal to the Martial Artist's offensive strike DC's.

 

That would make the Block against typical opponents likely to succeed, give a chance even against a moderaltely more powerful opponent, but still see the Block crumble against a vastly more powerful opponent.

 

Lord Mhoram: And KK should still be able to hard block Superboy - he has that many DC's in Martial Arts.

 

There we go. Problem solved.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Yet Another Block and Missile Deflection House Rule

 

Another potential issue with this approach is that it seems to assume that all Blocks are countering force with force. If the SFX of my "Block" is that I slide to the side a bit to make your attack glance off' date=' then my DCs of attack don't seem relevant.[/quote']

Agreed. What is everyone's problem with the idea of redirecting an attack? That's not a Dodge! It seems everyone wants to reduce Block to cover only that highly dramatic and unrealistic movie event where one strong character grabs the other character's fist in mid-punch.

 

In martial arts the intent of almost all blocks is to counter an attack in a way that does not depend on strength. You redirect a limb or weapon in a direction perpendicular to the line of force. You take advantage of the opponent's body in a way that they cannot easily exert force. In fencing, you block the weak part of the blade, and not even superman (were he a fencer ) would be able to push his point back in line because the weapon would bend or snap first.

 

The answer of using Dodge for all cases in which you aren't grabbing the other guy's fist or sucking it in and taking the blow is utterly ridiculous. While we're at it we might as well say we are restricting Grabs to only power armor characters who have mechanical assistance for holding on.