And Now For Something Completely Different

[Frenchman]

Building a prefab for ranged weapons today, I came across something that has bothered me for a while. STR-based Ranged attacks that don't do killing damage.

If you want the short version, cut to the bottom of my post.

Lets take two characters each with a different weapon: Biff wields a Knife, and his slightly less deadly friend, Boff, who has a Club.

The Knife can be built as an HKA, simple. However, Biff wants to be able to throw his knives, so we have two options - We could build it as an RKA, but this runs into a problem when his STR is drained by an enemy wizard, or when it's boosted when he takes a shot of Andrenaline - the power of his throw should be different. Thankfull, for the knife, this has been accounted for. We build it as an HKA with range. Now he deals damage based in part on his STR, at range. Simple, elegant, effective.

Boff's club can be built as a HA. Simple. Boff doesn't just want any club though, he wants a boomerang. He's not worried about it returning when he misses, because he always hits. How to build this? We could use the normal damage equivalent of RKA, the trusty EB, but then we run into the same problem of damage being disconnected from Boff's STR. It would be simple, elegant, and effective if we could just add the Ranged modifier to HA, but that isn't allowed. So we have to make due with EB, or do we? Our other option is to buy Stretching, limited so it only works with the club to deal damage - that quickly gets expensive, and its clumsy and ugly on the character sheet. We could buy EB up to the maximum amount he would ever be able to get, and limit it to not exceed what the damage would be if it were an HA. Again, expensive and clumsy.

 

So in short, we can have the following variations of the EB/KA attack:

KA, No Range or STR

KA, Based on STR, No Range

KA, Ranged, No STR

KA, Based on STR, Ranged

 

EB, No Range or STR

HA, Based on STR, No Range

EB, Ranged, No STR

but we cannot have an EB or HA which is Ranged & Based on STR. Why the heck not? How many others have been/are a tad frustrated by this, and how many of you just ignore it and let HA's be bought with range? Perhaps there are hidden reasons for this restriction that I don't see?

[Kelcyron]

Re: And Now For Something Completely Different

 

We ignored that restriction (my character is a Spiderman homage, who does the Ben Reily impact-webbing trick built as ranged HA). I had to use a custom advantage in hero designer because it refused to allow me to put ranged on HA.

 

As a further added complication we use the 4th edition HA (3 per die, no kludgie limitation), which required that the whole thing be built as a custom power in my webshooter multipower.

 

Kelcyron

[Lord Liaden]

Re: And Now For Something Completely Different

 

During a recent board discussion I was doing an analysis of the differences between HA with Range, and a HKA with Range. I'm going to briefly look at the possible problems with such a construct which may have contributed to the official prohibition, but I also offer a possible solution. If you want to go directly to the solution, skip to the bottom of this post.

 

IMO the problem with 5E Hand-To-Hand Attack in this context is twofold. One is the logical contradiction: part of the definition of Hand-To-Hand Attack is that it excludes Range, so adding Range via a Limitation is a direct conceptual conflict. The other problem is that HA is a Limitation on STR or EB that changes how they function mechanically. It's only partly the loss of Figured Characteristics from STR, or Range from EB, that makes the difference. HA also adds STR damage without prorating it for the Advantages on the HA; OTOH HKA is prorated for Advantages, including Ranged. E.g. if you were to Limit an EB with HA, but add Ranged back in via Advantage, you would get something with all the abilities of an Energy Blast, plus the capacity to be used HTH, plus the lack of prorating, for the same Real Points as an unmodified Energy Blast of the same Damage Class. Granted, the Active Points and END use would be greater for the ranged HA, but there are still balance issues there (again IMO).

 

However, when I was considering a Ranged HKA, I noticed that it has three components. HKA is comprised of the basic Damage that it does, plus the extra Damage due to adding STR. The Ranged Advantage adds a third component, the ability to do all that damage at range. OTOH an Energy Blast has the basic Damage and the capacity for Range. What I propose is adding the third component as a custom Advantage, "STR Adds To Damage." I would rate that as +1/2, the same as Ranged. I would define it to work the same as for HKA - STR can increase Damage up to double the Damage Class of the Power, and STR is prorated for any Advantages.

 

Now you have a Modified EB that functions the same mechanically, and has the same Active and Real Points, as a Ranged HKA of equal Damage Class. The only difference is that between Normal and Killing Damage. To me this seems pretty logical, fair and balanced. And you could easily apply the "Ranged Based On Strength" Limitation to this construct.

[ghost-angel]

Re: And Now For Something Completely Different

 

You forgot the other Power that allows for damage done at range.

 

Telekenesis, Ranged Based On STR does what you are asking. Further limit it to "Attacks Only" if you want.

[Frenchman]

Re: And Now For Something Completely Different

 

Now you have a Modified EB that functions the same mechanically' date=' and has the same Active and Real Points, as a Ranged HKA of equal Damage Class. The only difference is that between Normal and Killing Damage. To me this seems pretty logical, fair and balanced. And you could easily apply the "Ranged Based On Strength" Limitation to this construct.[/quote']

This is basically what I like to do - I treat HA as a No Range, STR adds to Damage EB, and nothing more. I put a -1/2 limit on EBs to balance them vs. KAs anyhow, so I have no problems in HD - aside from the range thing.

Is it just me, or is HA way more complicated and strange than it needs to be?

[Frenchman]

Re: And Now For Something Completely Different

 

You forgot the other Power that allows for damage done at range.

 

Telekenesis, Ranged Based On STR does what you are asking. Further limit it to "Attacks Only" if you want.

 

Yes, it does - except that the damage it does isn't based on the character's STR - I could do the same as with EB, buy it up to the highest level it could reasonably get to and limit it to function at a level equal to current STR, but its even wackier than doing it with EB with all the extra limitations

[Dust Raven]

Re: And Now For Something Completely Different

 

You could invent a +0 Advantage for the EB that is mirrors STR. So when the character's STR is decreased, so is the EB and when his STR is increased, so is the EB. This only works in a balanced way if the character has no Aid or similar powers that increase his STR. If that's the case, such Powers should also increase the EB at the same time.

[ghost-angel]

Re: And Now For Something Completely Different

 

Yes' date=' it does - except that the damage it does isn't based on the character's STR - I could do the same as with EB, buy it up to the highest level it could reasonably get to and limit it to function at a level equal to current STR, but its even wackier than doing it with EB with all the extra limitations[/quote']

I'm not sure I get the issue here....

 

Since Telekenesis can be used to wield weapons (HA for example) simply buy an amount of TK equal to your STR, pick up the weapon and start bashing away.

 

There's nothing that says TK STR doesn't add to damage done with Hand-to-Hand weapons wielded this way - so I would assume that means it adds like normal STR to the weapon in question.

[Frenchman]

Re: And Now For Something Completely Different

 

Ghost-Angel, forgive my bluntness, but I suspect you may be missing the point. Please forgive me if I'm wrong.

I don't want to 'pick up' a hammer and have it pount on an enemy - I want to throw that hammer at the enemy. I would like the damage that hammer does to be based on the current STR of the character who is wielding it, not a fixed value unrelated to the character's STR.

In short, I want an HKA, Ranged which does normal damage instead of killing damage.

With an EB (or TK) the damage stays the same, regardless of who is wielding the weapon.

[ghost-angel]

Re: And Now For Something Completely Different

 

I see what you're after....

 

Throwing Rules 5ER p35.

 

You can throw an object and do the HTH Damage you would normally do up to the DEF+BODY of the object.

 

STR 15 Thug + 2D6 Club = 5D6 HTH Damage.

The Expanded Object table in The Ultimate Brick says a Club is 5BODY/3DEF (or a total of 8) TUB p246.

 

The thug can throw a club at someone for maximum damage of 5D6.

 

Likewise... it is a simply extension in a Supers game where things regularly reach towards 10+D6 that any Weapon you pay for may do full damage at range like it does in HTH Combat. Otherwise you're doing more damage than the object itself can take (and therefore reasonbly deal out).

 

Just watch that Bricks tossing things around don't outshine Energy Blasters really....

[prestidigitator]

Re: And Now For Something Completely Different

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1023136#post1023136

[Frenchman]

Re: And Now For Something Completely Different

 

Throwing Rules 5ER p35.

Well...I guess my memory is faulty - cuz I remembered this rule differently. Thanks, Ghost-Angel.