US Military .45 Pistols

[gewing]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

Actually, I think Kimber makes one in 10mm, but I could be mistaken. You could get the best of both worlds. I do agree that the .45 isn't the smoothest, but the action of the 1911 isn't exactly condusive to smooth operation. Which is why I always laugh when someone talks about how smooth their 1911 is, considering it just batters the round into the chamber like that.

 

As for sigs... I like them, but they're a bit bulky, and I'm not a huge fan of the double action mechanism. I love how reliable and accurate they are, though. Whether single-action or double-action or even whatever you call the Glock/XD actions, I just like to have the same trigger pull each time. I can deal with the double-action switch, just prefer not to. Which is why revolvers are also on my list of handguns I really like.

 

Too bad no one I know has a 10mm so I could at least try it. *sigh* Ammo is expensive, though.

 

If you find one to test, let me know. I think I have half a box left over from when my friend had a Glock 10mm.

I think I shot it better than any of the various guns any of us had, including several sigs. I just didn't feel comfortable doing it, the grip size issue.

[RDU Neil]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

If you find one to test, let me know. I think I have half a box left over from when my friend had a Glock 10mm.

I think I shot it better than any of the various guns any of us had, including several sigs. I just didn't feel comfortable doing it, the grip size issue.

 

I didn't like the double stacked .45 of the glock... too wide. The 10mm felt right, though. I was all set to buy a HK USP, but the grip was really uncomfortable. I went with the single stack/1911 based style of the Kimber instead. I've always found the Sig (in 9mm and .40) to be quite comfortable as well... not too thick.

 

It is amazing how much a grip width and style (like I'm not fond of the full sized 92F style Baretta, even though I shoot well with it) can make a difference.

 

The Walther P99 is ergonomically designed. I really like that grip. Never fired it, though.

 

I always wanted to fire a Bren10 like Sonny Crockett.

[gewing]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

I didn't like the double stacked .45 of the glock... too wide. The 10mm felt right, though. I was all set to buy a HK USP, but the grip was really uncomfortable. I went with the single stack/1911 based style of the Kimber instead. I've always found the Sig (in 9mm and .40) to be quite comfortable as well... not too thick.

 

It is amazing how much a grip width and style (like I'm not fond of the full sized 92F style Baretta, even though I shoot well with it) can make a difference.

 

The Walther P99 is ergonomically designed. I really like that grip. Never fired it, though.

 

I always wanted to fire a Bren10 like Sonny Crockett.

 

Well, the Bren 10 was also derived from the CZ75, so the Witness is probably pretty close.

 

I was drooling over the .41 magnum version that Coonan was trying to get out. Apparently the company the contracted to build the magazines pretty well s@@wed them, and they went bankrupt. 7 rounds of .41 magnum, and no cylinder gap?

 

 

Check this out!

 

http://www.ncggasgun.com/

 

 

look at the performance specs.

[Remjin]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

If you find one to test, let me know. I think I have half a box left over from when my friend had a Glock 10mm.

I think I shot it better than any of the various guns any of us had, including several sigs. I just didn't feel comfortable doing it, the grip size issue.

Very generous of you to offer. I'll have to keep that in mind. =)

 

Yeah, glocks are wierd to me... they don't feel right, but I can shoot them really well. The Glock 30(?) subcompact .45 ACP shot point of aim, rapid fire, at 15 feet, in a nice 3" group except for one flyer for me... and the flyer wasn't that far off, it was one big ragged hole. I couldn't believe it, I can't always do that with my full-sized 1911... but it still feels wierd in my hand. =(

 

Granted, it wasn't a long distance, but I didn't figure I could hit much with such a small, unfamiliar gun.

 

Grip is always odd. I don't know, I don't have large hands but larger grips with the right contours feel good to me. I like my double-stack .45 (springfield, no longer made) for its grip, though I could use an arched mainspring, and I'm comfortable with a Glock 21 (even if the grip feels wierd). My biggest problem is trigger reach, as I'm just a little short on my S&W 629 (N-frame) for trigger reach, which makes me push the trigger to the left sometimes. =(

 

The fact that I feel better with a double-stack 1911 versus a single-stack is just odd to my mind considering my hand-size. I also like the short triggers on those instead of the long, which I currently have, but new triggers for that gun are difficult to find, I think. Hopefully one of the paraordnance triggers will fit it when I get some money to change it, or I'll just have someone shorten the one I have if I can.

[Remjin]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

I didn't like the double stacked .45 of the glock... too wide. The 10mm felt right, though. I was all set to buy a HK USP, but the grip was really uncomfortable. I went with the single stack/1911 based style of the Kimber instead. I've always found the Sig (in 9mm and .40) to be quite comfortable as well... not too thick.

 

It is amazing how much a grip width and style (like I'm not fond of the full sized 92F style Baretta, even though I shoot well with it) can make a difference.

 

The Walther P99 is ergonomically designed. I really like that grip. Never fired it, though.

 

I always wanted to fire a Bren10 like Sonny Crockett.

Yeah, the HK is a bit wierd in grip, I liked it okay way back, but who knows nowadays. I like a more curved grip, personally, probably from shooting revolver as my first gun. Sigs are always nice. =)

 

Berettas are nice. I personally like the grip as well, but I think the muzzle rise for the calibers it shoots is a bit excessive. Probably better with the Brigadier slide, which is supposed to be heavier. The fit and finish are awesome for a factory gun, I was much impressed, and I really like their "bruniton" finish. I wish they made a single-action version like they used to, their DOA was crap last time I tried it (I think it was a Cougar), and I prefer to stay away from the TDA guns. *sigh* It really is too bad.

 

A Bren10? Good luck finding one. Isn't that the 10mm handgun that was supposed to be the big vehicle the 10mm was supposed to come in on? Some sort of combination of CZ75 ergonomics (btw, another nice gun, much copied... Witness pistols are all based on it) with some other features as I recall...?

[Dog Soldier]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

The problem with the 10mm was that it was immediately 'magnumized' upon reaching production. The original concept called for a 200 grain projectile with a muzzle velocity of 1000 fps. The original rounds came out of the box at 200 grains at 1200 fps and a 170 grain at 1300 fps. After evaluation the FBI concluded that a 180 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 950 was optimum for training and general issue. It didn't take very long for Smith & Wesson to realize that this could easily be done with a shorter cartridge fired in a smaller and lighter handgun. Thus the .40 S&W was born and has become the law enforcement standard.

 

Oddly enough we now see the emergence of a shorter version of the .45 ACP in the .45 GAP. I intend to purchase a Springfield Micro Compact in that caliber when I can get the money ahead.

[RDU Neil]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

The problem with the 10mm was that it was immediately 'magnumized' upon reaching production. The original concept called for a 200 grain projectile with a muzzle velocity of 1000 fps. The original rounds came out of the box at 200 grains at 1200 fps and a 170 grain at 1300 fps. After evaluation the FBI concluded that a 180 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 950 was optimum for training and general issue. It didn't take very long for Smith & Wesson to realize that this could easily be done with a shorter cartridge fired in a smaller and lighter handgun. Thus the .40 S&W was born and has become the law enforcement standard.

 

Oddly enough we now see the emergence of a shorter version of the .45 ACP in the .45 GAP. I intend to purchase a Springfield Micro Compact in that caliber when I can get the money ahead.

 

 

Interesting. What was their criteria for saying 180g/950fps was optimum? I'm not challenging it... just wondering how they came to that conclusion?

[Toadmaster]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

The problem with the 10mm was that it was immediately 'magnumized' upon reaching production. The original concept called for a 200 grain projectile with a muzzle velocity of 1000 fps. The original rounds came out of the box at 200 grains at 1200 fps and a 170 grain at 1300 fps. After evaluation the FBI concluded that a 180 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 950 was optimum for training and general issue. It didn't take very long for Smith & Wesson to realize that this could easily be done with a shorter cartridge fired in a smaller and lighter handgun. Thus the .40 S&W was born and has become the law enforcement standard.

 

Oddly enough we now see the emergence of a shorter version of the .45 ACP in the .45 GAP. I intend to purchase a Springfield Micro Compact in that caliber when I can get the money ahead.

 

Actually I thought it was the other way around, the 10mm came out with a 200 grain bullet at 1200 fps, this is what te FBI bought off on, because of the recoil people were soon using reduced loads and the FBI spec'd a load with a 200 grain bullet @ 1000 fps. S&W picked up on this lower performance requirement in a round that could be used in popular 9mm pistol frames when they introduced the .40 S&W. Due to the length of the 10mm it had to use a larger frame pistol so with the new FBI load specs you had similar performance to the .40 in a larger package.

[Dog Soldier]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

The FBI wasn't behind initial development. They were looking for something more powerful after the infamous Miami Shootout. The 10mm was decided as optimum but training new agents with full house 10mm proved to be a problem. The 180/950 round was managable by even the smallest female agents. Just the way goverments work.

 

Found a link to the history of the gun and cartridge.

 

 

http://nordicg3k.tripod.com/id7.html

[RDU Neil]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

The FBI wasn't behind initial development. They were looking for something more powerful after the infamous Miami Shootout. The 10mm was decided as optimum but training new agents with full house 10mm proved to be a problem. The 180/950 round was managable by even the smallest female agents. Just the way goverments work.

 

Found a link to the history of the gun and cartridge.

 

 

http://nordicg3k.tripod.com/id7.html

 

Excellent resource artilce. Thanks for posting. Repped.

 

Taking this thread even further off topic...

 

Anyone know what the penetration stats for the .357 Sig (.355 in actuality) are? They seem to be claiming close to 1400fps from essentially a 9mm round. Then the Triton .40 can do the same... but I assume firing from a standard S&W style .40 pistol. I would think these would be extremely effective rounds... but I have no information on them.

 

Anyone?

[Remjin]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

Excellent resource artilce. Thanks for posting. Repped.

 

Taking this thread even further off topic...

 

Anyone know what the penetration stats for the .357 Sig (.355 in actuality) are? They seem to be claiming close to 1400fps from essentially a 9mm round. Then the Triton .40 can do the same... but I assume firing from a standard S&W style .40 pistol. I would think these would be extremely effective rounds... but I have no information on them.

 

Anyone?

All I've heard about the .357 Sig was that it was the semi-auto equivalent (weight and velocity) to the .357 magnum, so I'd imagine the penetration would be similar. Of course, this may also be based on the more popular 125 grain weights of these modern times, but I don't know.

 

I've fired this round in a Springfield XD, and it was pretty fun, but I'm kind of a fan of the magnums as a whole for whatever reason. I don't think I'm trying to compensate, I just enjoy the hotter rounds in appropriate handguns up to a certain point. (I can't abide the .454 Casull or up, just watching people shoot the handcannons makes me flinch sometimes, can't imagine how bad it would be firing them.)

 

I've read that performance was pretty equivalent to .357, but not a lot about it, honestly.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

All I've heard about the .357 Sig was that it was the semi-auto equivalent (weight and velocity) to the .357 magnum, so I'd imagine the penetration would be similar. Of course, this may also be based on the more popular 125 grain weights of these modern times, but I don't know.

 

I've fired this round in a Springfield XD, and it was pretty fun, but I'm kind of a fan of the magnums as a whole for whatever reason. I don't think I'm trying to compensate, I just enjoy the hotter rounds in appropriate handguns up to a certain point. (I can't abide the .454 Casull or up, just watching people shoot the handcannons makes me flinch sometimes, can't imagine how bad it would be firing them.)

 

I've read that performance was pretty equivalent to .357, but not a lot about it, honestly.

Based on the couple times I fired it, I'd say that's about right. But I don't know any stats either. I do know a lot of folks who swear by it, including a number of law enforcement types.

[Remjin]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

Based on the couple times I fired it' date=' I'd say that's about right. But I don't know any stats either. I do know a lot of folks who swear by it, including a number of law enforcement types.[/quote']

Well... such poddy mouths!

[gewing]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

The problem with the 10mm was that it was immediately 'magnumized' upon reaching production. The original concept called for a 200 grain projectile with a muzzle velocity of 1000 fps. The original rounds came out of the box at 200 grains at 1200 fps and a 170 grain at 1300 fps. After evaluation the FBI concluded that a 180 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 950 was optimum for training and general issue. It didn't take very long for Smith & Wesson to realize that this could easily be done with a shorter cartridge fired in a smaller and lighter handgun. Thus the .40 S&W was born and has become the law enforcement standard.

 

Oddly enough we now see the emergence of a shorter version of the .45 ACP in the .45 GAP. I intend to purchase a Springfield Micro Compact in that caliber when I can get the money ahead.

 

I like the full power version, from my little shooting of it.

 

I have a .45, so I Don't see any need to have another gun that shoots a 200gr bullet at 1000fps.

[gewing]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

Excellent resource artilce. Thanks for posting. Repped.

 

Taking this thread even further off topic...

 

Anyone know what the penetration stats for the .357 Sig (.355 in actuality) are? They seem to be claiming close to 1400fps from essentially a 9mm round. Then the Triton .40 can do the same... but I assume firing from a standard S&W style .40 pistol. I would think these would be extremely effective rounds... but I have no information on them.

 

Anyone?

 

Triton >40 Super requires a .45 acp sized pistol and beefed up springs, etc. It is HOT!

 

The .357 Sig will fit in a 9mm/.40 s&w frame, it has good ballistics and an excellent reputation for Accuracy. I think I would tend toward the Corbon DPX loads, just because of personal preferences.

 

The .357 sig is enough hotter than the 9mm that it can even drive 147 grain bullets fast enough to be effective.

[Dog Soldier]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

I like the full power version, from my little shooting of it.

 

I have a .45, so I Don't see any need to have another gun that shoots a 200gr bullet at 1000fps.

 

 

As I'm typing this I have a Springfield Micro Compact chambered in .45 ACP in a Milt Sparks Versa-Max 2 on my right hip. I just like to buy a new pistol every year or so and support the firearms industry. Yeah that's it, I'm helping the economy, just keep saying that to myself:D

[Remjin]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

As I'm typing this I have a Springfield Micro Compact chambered in .45 ACP in a Milt Sparks Versa-Max 2 on my right hip. I just like to buy a new pistol every year or so and support the firearms industry. Yeah that's it' date=' I'm helping the economy, just keep saying that to myself:D[/quote']

Hey, any reason is a good enough reason, even if its "cuz I want to." This is America, baby! Now I'm gonna go drive my 1967 Camaro SS and burn a gallon of gas for every 10 miles I travel, leaving a 10th of my tires on the blacktop as I go... so I can go buy another set to ruin before winter comes up.

 

And, if this new job hookup happens, I'm gonna go out and buy me a fully customized Caspian high capacity .45, for way too much money for a handgun... cuz I'd rather have too much handgun then not enough, just in case of murphy's law.

[gewing]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

As I'm typing this I have a Springfield Micro Compact chambered in .45 ACP in a Milt Sparks Versa-Max 2 on my right hip. I just like to buy a new pistol every year or so and support the firearms industry. Yeah that's it' date=' I'm helping the economy, just keep saying that to myself:D[/quote']

 

 

If I could only afford it!!!

 

 

My Kimber Pro Carry II is on the way back to the company, it has never been quite right.

 

Still have my sig 228.

[gewing]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

Hey, any reason is a good enough reason, even if its "cuz I want to." This is America, baby! Now I'm gonna go drive my 1967 Camaro SS and burn a gallon of gas for every 10 miles I travel, leaving a 10th of my tires on the blacktop as I go... so I can go buy another set to ruin before winter comes up.

 

And, if this new job hookup happens, I'm gonna go out and buy me a fully customized Caspian high capacity .45, for way too much money for a handgun... cuz I'd rather have too much handgun then not enough, just in case of murphy's law.

 

 

I think I would go with a Para Ordnance outfitted with the NCG gas gun conversion, good sights, and a laser Grip.

 

and a light rail, of course.

 

Loaded with DPX for defensive roles or .45 super level handloads for hunting.

 

On the cheap, I like the WItness.

[Remjin]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

I think I would go with a Para Ordnance outfitted with the NCG gas gun conversion, good sights, and a laser Grip.

 

and a light rail, of course.

 

Loaded with DPX for defensive roles or .45 super level handloads for hunting.

 

On the cheap, I like the WItness.

 

NCG gas gun conversion? Is that like the conversion that was done (can't remember who, its been awhile) to make it a fixed barrel?

 

The big thing I don't like about Para-Ordnance guns is that they're cast... not that they make a bad product, but why chance it? It only takes ONE bad cast to make for a really bad day.

 

If I were to fully customize it, I'd probably go with XS sights (24/7 big dot), a laser of some sort (lasermax or crimson trace, but I don't think crimson makes 'em for the double-stacks), bulletproof internals from Wilsons, Ed Brown beavertail, slight flat top with the lines milled in, a light smoothing of the slide edges, Videcki short trigger (solid, not full of holes or anything), and a black roguard finish. Short guide rod, ambi safeties, no front serrations, undercut triggerguard, and I'm not sure what barrel... I like good old fashioned carbon steel. Back it up with a Ruger SP101 in .357 and you're good to go... =)

 

As for ammo... a nice 230 grain gold dot HP will do me fine. I've heard good things about the DPX, but I just like the weight of good old 230s. It was good enough for WWII, its good enough for me. =)

[gewing]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

NCG gas gun conversion? Is that like the conversion that was done (can't remember who, its been awhile) to make it a fixed barrel?

 

The big thing I don't like about Para-Ordnance guns is that they're cast... not that they make a bad product, but why chance it? It only takes ONE bad cast to make for a really bad day.

 

If I were to fully customize it, I'd probably go with XS sights (24/7 big dot), a laser of some sort (lasermax or crimson trace, but I don't think crimson makes 'em for the double-stacks), bulletproof internals from Wilsons, Ed Brown beavertail, slight flat top with the lines milled in, a light smoothing of the slide edges, Videcki short trigger (solid, not full of holes or anything), and a black roguard finish. Short guide rod, ambi safeties, no front serrations, undercut triggerguard, and I'm not sure what barrel... I like good old fashioned carbon steel. Back it up with a Ruger SP101 in .357 and you're good to go... =)

 

As for ammo... a nice 230 grain gold dot HP will do me fine. I've heard good things about the DPX, but I just like the weight of good old 230s. It was good enough for WWII, its good enough for me. =)

 

 

Yeah, the NCG gun is a fixed gas retarded blowback, aiui. The higher the laod pressure, the harder it locks up.

 

http://www.ncggasgun.com/

[Remjin]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

Well... this is very interesting... =) I'll put that in my favorites, in case I'm ever able to do this.... sounds interesting.

[gewing]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

Something else I just found last night...

 

Drooooolllllll!

 

http://www.sigarms.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=6&productid=156

[Remjin]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

..... also saw a SAO Sig?! OMG... OMG... might have to get one of those! Single action sig-sauer... the gun gods are truly generous! DAO Sig's trigger is too long for me, SAO is a blessing... and in the 220 no less! WHOOOT!!!!!

 

Oh yeah, and the military version thing is all right, too... not big on the protruding barrel, though, since I have no use for a silencer. =) All the beefing up with finishes and coatings is nice, though.

[RDU Neil]

Re: US Military .45 Pistols

 

Something else I just found last night...

 

Drooooolllllll!

 

http://www.sigarms.com/Products/ShowCatalogProductDetails.aspx?categoryid=6&productid=156

 

Dear Santa Clause... can I have one... can I? Can I?