Naked Advantages

[bwdemon]

I thought I had a pretty good grasp on these, but now I'm not so sure. Let's start with a theoretical character called "Super Boxer" who wants a naked advantage (Variable Advantage +1/2) to give him a variety of special attacks to use in combat. Super Boxer has 40 STR.

 

As I understand it, Super Boxer would buy Variable Advantage +1/2 (+1) for up to 8d6 HA, which would cost [(40 x 2.00) - 40] / 1.5 = 27pts. This would allow Super Boxer to apply any advantage he wanted, up to +1/2 total, to his 8d6 punch.

 

If Super Boxer decided to kick an opponent and use Explosion as his advantage, we get into some gray territory.

 

Option 1: 8d6 explosion or 12d6 normal;

Option 2: 8d6 explosion and 4d6 normal;

Option 3: 10 1/2d6 explosion;

Option 4: he didn't buy variable advantage for up to 8d6 HA, he bought it for his full STR, so its 12d6 explosion.

 

I fall into the "Option 1" camp, but I can't say it's the right way to interpret the rules. Option 2 sounds reasonable (variable advantage only applies to first 8d6). Option 3 sounds reasonable (additional DC divided by 1.5 to account for the cost of the advantage). Option 4 doesn't sound reasonable (nobody should get a power advantage on extra dice without paying for it appropriately).

 

So which of these is right?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

I think you've got the idea right ... but some of the concept off. Or I'm reading wrong.

 

Does Super Boxer have a 40STR and an 8D6 Hand Attack? Or just a 40 STR?

 

Assuming just a 40 STR his normal punch is 8D6. Buying the Naked Advantage for said STR costs 40 points [(40 *2)-40]. He can now apply any 1/2 Advantage to his 40 STR. {you can't buy the Naked Advantage for HA in this case because he doesn't have HA, he has STR}

 

Assuming he has 40STR + 8D6 HA and the Naked Advantage was bought for the Hand Attack (27 points) then ... he has a 16D6 Normal Punch. Now.. he applies the 1/2 Advantage to his HA, Damage now adds as if the HA were an Advantaged Hand Attack. That is to say he would do 16D6 Normal Damage with the Advantage.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

No "Naked" is required.

 

Assuming that you want to be able to do 12d6 plus any +1/2 Advantage I would suggest the following:

 

HA 6d6 with Variable Advantage +1/2 (+1) (60 Active) HTH Attack (-1/2)

40 Real

 

This allows 12d6 w/Any (+1/2) Advantage attacks as long as the characters STR is at least 30. Note, any STR above 30 does not get added (5er pg 408).

[ghost-angel]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

Hyper-Man's build is the simplest.

 

 

 

 

psst.. hyper-man, BTW: I'm not Steve's LOL account. really. honest.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

Another alternative build:

 

27 Multipower 40 Active pool - (Super Boxing) HTH (-1/2)

3u HA 4d6 with Variable Advantage +1/2 (+1) (40 Active) HTH Attack (-1/2)

3u HA 8d6 (40 Active) HTH Attack (-1/2)

 

This allows 12d6 un-Advantaged attacks with 20 STR and 8d6 w/Any (+1/2) Advantage attacks. Note, any STR above 20 does not get added to the Variable Advantaged attack (5er pg 408).

 

If you want to limit the high end damage to 12d6 AND preserve the character's 40 STR you can replace the 2nd slot with:

 

3u HA 4d6 with Reduced End 0 (+1/2) HTH Attack (-1/2) (30 Active) PLUS +2 HTH Combat Levels (10 active)

[bwdemon]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

I think you've got the idea right ... but some of the concept off. Or I'm reading wrong. Does Super Boxer have a 40STR and an 8D6 Hand Attack? Or just a 40 STR?

 

Super Boxer has 40 STR and no HA. However, by the rules, I believe you would have to purchase a naked power advantage for up to 8d6 (more if so inclined) melee damage (equivalent = 8d6 HA). You base the cost of the advantage off the HA formula, which starts at 40 (8d6 normal damage EB) multiplied by 2 (variable advantage +1/2), minus the 40pts the attack will cost anyway (prepaid with STR) and then divided by 1.5 (no range), which leaves a cost of 27 points.

 

If I wanted Super Boxer to have up to 12d6, then it'd cost me 40pts. If he did a normal strike, I'd still only do 8d6 (+ advantage effects), though. Right?

 

I get this basic formula from the example from pg.74 of TUMA under Mowing 'Em Down. There, they use a naked power advantage (AE radius, selective) on any autofire RKA up to 4d6. That has a base cost of 75pts (60 * 2.25 - 60). You take the maximum effect, apply the modifers, subtract the base cost, then divide by the limitations. In this example, it had a full -1 in limitations, for an actual cost of 37pts.

 

Now here's where I get confused. I pull up pg.131 in TUMA and I see the "Autofire" example. There it sounds like you just buy the advantage for your manuevers' maximum extra DC an then you get the advantage for free on your STR? The example is a character with 20 STR and +6DC as his best maneuver. They buy +6d6 HA, Autofire(5, +1/2), 1/2 END (+1/2), Hand Attack (-1/2) for a total cost of 40pts. This seems like it would allow the character to do 10d6 autofire for 40pts? Is that right or is it just a 6d6 autofire attack?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

Super Boxer has 40 STR and no HA. However' date=' by the rules, I [i']believe[/i] you would have to purchase a naked power advantage for up to 8d6 (more if so inclined) melee damage (equivalent = 8d6 HA). You base the cost of the advantage off the HA formula, which starts at 40 (8d6 normal damage EB) multiplied by 2 (variable advantage +1/2), minus the 40pts the attack will cost anyway (prepaid with STR) and then divided by 1.5 (no range), which leaves a cost of 27 points.

 

If I wanted Super Boxer to have up to 12d6, then it'd cost me 40pts. If he did a normal strike, I'd still only do 8d6 (+ advantage effects), though. Right?

 

I get this basic formula from the example from pg.74 of TUMA under Mowing 'Em Down. There, they use a naked power advantage (AE radius, selective) on any autofire RKA up to 4d6. That has a base cost of 75pts (60 * 2.25 - 60). You take the maximum effect, apply the modifers, subtract the base cost, then divide by the limitations. In this example, it had a full -1 in limitations, for an actual cost of 37pts.

 

Now here's where I get confused. I pull up pg.131 in TUMA and I see the "Autofire" example. There it sounds like you just buy the advantage for your manuevers' maximum extra DC an then you get the advantage for free on your STR? The example is a character with 20 STR and +6DC as his best maneuver. They buy +6d6 HA, Autofire(5, +1/2), 1/2 END (+1/2), Hand Attack (-1/2) for a total cost of 40pts. This seems like it would allow the character to do 10d6 autofire for 40pts? Is that right or is it just a 6d6 autofire attack?

 

The 6d6 Autofire 5 with 1/2 End would cost 2 End per shot for the HA only. Any STR damage added to this would add to the End cost with no reduced end. If used with 30 STR for 12d6 Autofire 5 for 5 shots it would cost 5 End per shot or 25 End total to use.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

If you want the NA to affect the character's Str, you buy it for the character's Str. It has nothing to do with HA.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

Super Boxer has 40 STR and no HA. However' date=' by the rules, I [i']believe[/i] you would have to purchase a naked power advantage for up to 8d6 (more if so inclined) melee damage (equivalent = 8d6 HA).

Prestidigitator covered it nicely.

 

If this is for the Damage done with the characters STR then you have to purchase the Naked Advantage for the STR.

 

The example you site (UMA p74) is for up to 4D6 RKA ... which means it applies to any RKA you have, up to 4D6: in this case it implies guns.

 

If you do not have a Hand Attack to work with (either the power, or a weapon) then your Naked Advantage does not work for you. If you only have your STR and this Naked Advantage is supposed to be for your Punch (i.e. STR Damage) then you buy the NA for STR.

 

The Ultimate Brick has a number of examples where various Advantages are bought for the damage done with STR, I suggest that book may be more useful for this exercise.

[bwdemon]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

I guess I need to look into getting a copy of TUB, then. It just doesn't seem fair to me that you could buy something like AP for STR and then get to use AP with all of your damage related to STR (e.g. kicks, martial attacks, etc.). I just don't like the idea of a naked advantage on STR, rather than on damage.

 

Perhaps wording it as "HA" is not the best way to do it. If instead of "HA" I put "on up to 8d6 of melee attack" then the whole problem that comes along with the "HA" label goes away, right?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

You're still costing it based on the Power that is being used.

 

In this case STR.

 

two options;

1) Define the Naked Advantage as "Basic Attacks With STR"

 

2)A Limitation "Basic Maneuvers Only" (a -1/4 at best, -0 would probably be more approrpirate) on the Naked Advantage would work.

 

 

Either way a Naked Advantage Power has to apply to a Power you have, or have access to. If you do not have Hand Attack then you can't apply the NA to it. So you buy it for your STR.

 

Then normal Damage Adding Rules take over.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

I take it that you don't like buying Advantages for STR (not a Naked Advantage Power) either?

[bwdemon]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

I'm trying to get away from the HA label issues at this point, since they cloud up my real concern here.

 

I generally do not like advantages for STR, simply because I feel it gives more for the points than it should. The only advantage I'm fine with is reduced endurance. It isn't like armor piercing would change your ability to lift things, but wouldn't explosion or AOE on STR result in the character being able to lift things with the explosion advantage? That's why I feel that you (should) need an attack-based advantage to reach the result I'm trying to achieve.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

Then you have two choices... define the Naked Advantage as "For Basic Maneuvers with STR only" or a Limitation on the Naked Advantage Power "Cannot add to Martial Maneuvers"

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

I'm trying to get away from the HA label issues at this point, since they cloud up my real concern here.

 

I generally do not like advantages for STR, simply because I feel it gives more for the points than it should. The only advantage I'm fine with is reduced endurance. It isn't like armor piercing would change your ability to lift things, but wouldn't explosion or AOE on STR result in the character being able to lift things with the explosion advantage? That's why I feel that you (should) need an attack-based advantage to reach the result I'm trying to achieve.

 

Remember that HA's normally can't be used to do some things that STR alone can (like break out of entangles).

 

(confirmed on page 409 5er) Advantaged STR attacks also cannot benefit from any combat/martial maneuver bonus damage (edited) including Haymaker.

 

HM

[Cancer]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

Actually, I had a nearly identical question recently, with the proviso that I've never tried to build a Naked Advantage before.

 

The idea was that my Brick (STR 60) had some mystical whatzis with which he could "charge up" the junk he picks up on the field of battle and throws, so that these charged-up thrown things could affect ghosts, "phased out" goons, etc. So, this sounded like taking Affects Desolid as a Naked Advantage ... but to what is it applied? If it's just the thrown things, then it sounds like you should compute the cost as if it was an EB. If it's his STR, then how to limit it and compute the cost for it?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

Actually, I had a nearly identical question recently, with the proviso that I've never tried to build a Naked Advantage before.

 

The idea was that my Brick (STR 60) had some mystical whatzis with which he could "charge up" the junk he picks up on the field of battle and throws, so that these charged-up thrown things could affect ghosts, "phased out" goons, etc. So, this sounded like taking Affects Desolid as a Naked Advantage ... but to what is it applied? If it's just the thrown things, then it sounds like you should compute the cost as if it was an EB. If it's his STR, then how to limit it and compute the cost for it?

Assuming normal damage. Using the Throwing Rules ... I would purchase that Naked Advantage to the largest Normal Damage Hand Attack he can reasonbly use, Limited to "For Throwing Only" and apply the Throwing Rules normally for thrown Normal Damage Weapons (like clubs).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

(confirmed on page 409 5er) Advantaged STR attacks also cannot benefit from any combat/martial maneuver bonus damage (edited) including Haymaker.

Weird. Even Haymaker?! I can sort of see the Martial Arts examples since you can buy Martial Maneuvers themselves with such Advantages, but you can't do that with Haymaker. Besides, you can Haymaker with ANYTHING now. Even your NND RKA or whatever. Why not advantaged Str? Grr....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

Weird. Even Haymaker?! I can sort of see the Martial Arts examples since you can buy Martial Maneuvers themselves with such Advantages' date=' but you can't do that with Haymaker. Besides, you can Haymaker with ANYTHING now. Even your NND RKA or whatever. Why not advantaged Str? Grr....[/quote']

 

Let me clarify,

 

If a combat maneuver that adds damage is used, then the (Naked) Advantage on STR does not apply.

 

example:

 

If a character with 50 STR and Naked Advantage AP on STR (25 Active points) punches someone he does 10d6 AP. If he Haymakers his punch he does 14d6 with no AP.

 

This is quite different than my earlier HA example.

 

27 Multipower 40 Active pool - (Super Boxing) HTH (-1/2)

3u HA 4d6 with Variable Advantage +1/2 (+1) (40 Active) HTH Attack (-1/2)

3u HA 8d6 (40 Active) HTH Attack (-1/2)

 

This allows 12d6 un-Advantaged attacks with 20 STR and 8d6 w/Any (+1/2) Advantage attacks. Note, any STR above 20 does not get added to the Variable Advantaged attack (5er pg 408).

 

If you want to limit the high end damage to 12d6 AND preserve the character's 40 STR you can replace the 2nd slot with:

 

3u HA 4d6 with Reduced End 0 (+1/2) HTH Attack (-1/2) (30 Active) PLUS +2 HTH Combat Levels (10 active)

 

Increasing the STR from 40 to 50 in this example only increases the damage for the NON-advantaged HA. The DC's from an Advantaged HA can only be doubled by STR. If more STR than this is used then none of the HA damage is applied (not even the same DC's without the advantages).

 

Haymaker and base MA maneuver damage gets added on top in the HA cases without losing the DC's or the Advantage on the HA.

 

However, the rules are a little confusing at first regarding NON-focus based Advantaged HA's.

 

There is a very obscure rule regarding this situation on page 101 of UMA. I confirmed the rule with Steve L. in the rules thread a while back and it talks about any extra MA DC's not applying in this situation. I think this is only referring to 4 point DC's purchased above and beyond the ones already provided by any individual manuever like Martial Strike (+2 DC). This is basically keeps the munchkins from combining Advantaged HA's with Martial Arts AND Extra MA DC's which could otherwise produce some truly abusive amounts of multiple Advantaged damage for relatively few points.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Naked Advantages

 

Let me clarify,

 

If a combat maneuver that adds damage is used, then the (Naked) Advantage on STR does not apply.

 

example:

 

If a character with 50 STR and Naked Advantage AP on STR (25 Active points) punches someone he does 10d6 AP. If he Haymakers his punch he does 14d6 with no AP.

Yeah, I got that part (I read over the section in 5ER too). The Haymaker part still just annoys me. You can Haymaker any other attack (no matter the Advantages) and it doesn't change in nature. And what about Move Throughs and Move Bys? Like I said, ruling this way with Martial Maneuvers doesn't bother me so much. Those others are a real thorn.