Magic System Question #1

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

However' date=' it seems are very overcomplicated way to learning new spells[/quote']

 

The multiform (or whatever approach) is just a kludge to achieve the effect the poster desires, which I agree seems a very complicated way to learn new spells. I've commented a few times above that, if acquisition of new spells is sufficiently difficult, costly, risky and/or inconvenient, the end result will be no one playing a spellcaster.

[Cantriped]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Thats generally what I try for... then a stupid thing like realism bloats a paragraph long magic system concept into a 3 page mechanical nightmare!!! AHHHHHHHH!!!! *runs around like chicken with head cut off, then colapses a moment later*

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

If you really want to go with that idea' date=' I'd definitely call it a Transform, not a Multiform. Multiform is for characters who can actively switch between different forms. Transform is for making more or less permanent changes. Since the character will have to pay for the new powers anyway, it doesn't really matter that it is being used on the character him/herself.[/quote']

: Nope. You can't Transform yourself.

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

You could Limit the Multiform with "character must have enough earned and unspent xp to purchase the desired new spell(s) in order to change forms". Let them buy doublings normally - they effectively must spend the xp on the spells anyway, so the basic Multiform becomes, essentially, a perk to permit the character to learn new spells.

 

Alternatively, you could require it be acquired with 1 non-recoverable charge. They have to repurchase the Multiform power each time they wish to change form. I suspect it will be loaded down with enough limitations that it will be pretty cheap and, in any case, the new form simply won't pay for Multiform from the outset, and will therefore have the "correct" character points.

 

EXAMPLE: Malar the Munificent is a 150 point character. His player wants a new spell that will cost 25 points. He saves up 25 xp. Maral buys Multiform (175 point character; 35 AP) and applies the limitations (many assumed from your text) 1 non-recoverable charge (-4), Side Effect (-1), Expendable Focus, difficult to obtain (-1 1/4), Extra Time (1 day; -4), Concentrate (0 DCV throughout activation, -1) cost 3 points. Then he switches form and is in the new, 175 point with new spells, form.

 

When that form wants another 20 points of spells, he buys Multiform (195 point character; 2x forms 44 AP) and applies the limitations (many assumed from your text) 1 non-recoverable charge (-4), Side Effect (-1), Expendable Focus, difficult to obtain (-1 1/4), Extra Time (1 day; -4), Concentrate (0 DCV throughout activation, -1) cost 4 points. Then he switches form and is in the new, 195 point with new spells, form.

 

The MP has no real impact, since it will always cost less than the spells added in the new form due to the heaps of limitations on the Multiform.

 

I like a lot of this stuff, but I've decided to go with each form having no Multiform, and having to buy it to switch to a newer form that knows the new spell.

 

I'm going to have the Multiform have the Limitation: "Cannot Switch Back To Original Form." I think that's a -0 Lim. What do you all think?

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

The multiform (or whatever approach) is just a kludge to achieve the effect the poster desires' date=' which I agree seems a very complicated way to learn new spells. I've commented a few times above that, if acquisition of new spells is sufficiently difficult, costly, risky and/or inconvenient, the end result will be no one playing a spellcaster.[/quote']

Ah but the difficulty is only learning the spell. Casting it is a lot easier.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Ah but the difficulty is only learning the spell. Casting it is a lot easier.

 

My assumption is that the character must actually learn the spell in order to cast it. If the learning process is difficult, costly, risky and/or inconvenient, my character will have difficulty spending XP to move in the direction I want. Meanwhile, Freddie Fighter buys skill levels and moves on.

 

While I wrote up the multiform option, it's really just a kludge to make a mechanical approach to your desired difficulty of learning new spells. I think most of it could be handled through role playing issues just as well, and could impact other characters as well.

 

Spells are hard to learn? That can be simulated by the need for a teacher, whom you must locate and persuade to instruct you. Freddie might also need an instructor to teach him the use of a new weapon, or to better use his existing ones.

 

Spells take time to learn? That's easily simulated by requiring time for this instruction - it doesn't need a Multiform with Extra Time. And Freddie's not likely to learn his new skills overnight either, is he?

 

Spells are expensive to learn? Well, the multiform uses an expendable focus, but we could just as easily say that instructor charges for his services. I doubt Freddie's trainer works for free either.

 

That leaves "painful", which may need a mechanic (perhaps a Susceptibility required of all spellcasters). But how much impact does this have? Unless the "pain" stands a chance at killing the character, won't he just wait to recover before going out on another adventure? Freddie probably took a hit or two in sparring as well.

 

And if the damage does stand a serious chance of killing the spellcaster, this is a pretty serious disincentive to spellcaster characters.

 

The only variant I can think of is some form of long-term drain which will prevent waiting it out, but that's effectively taking points away from our spellcaster. Maybe some form of drain that has an extended recovery, but also recovers when the character uses his new spell (or does something else, perhaps) under strenuous/dangerous circumstances.

 

I'm not denying there could be a "cool" factor to a danger to learning spells. However, often the "wow cool" concepts turn out to be either overpowered or impractical in play. This could easily be the latter. How cool will the system appear to the player whose character is killed the first time he tries to spend xp to learn a new spell? That possibility will logically enter into player choices.

 

If my character stands a 10% chance of death (to pick a number out of the blue) each time he learns a new spell, that's a serious disincentive to putting a lot of work into a spellcaster character. On the other hand, there's not a lot of difference, in game, between a system where learning a new spell takes an extra month, or where the spellcaster needs that extra month to recover from the injury sustained in the course of learning that new spell.

 

Now, you could offset that risk with a reward - maybe spells grant extra power - but that carries its own risks as a lucky spellcaster will start to outstrip the power of his non-spellcasting teammates, while the unlucky ones are still dead. So players choosing spellcaster characters either get lucky and overpowered, or are unlucky and need to make new characters.

 

BTW, how does "learning spells is expensive, difficult, time consuming and dangerous" translate into the spells a character buys during character creation? Do they avoid these issues, or do you need to check whether your character survived learning those spells as well? [Traveller Flashback]

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Another issue with this type of system is that it tends to apply only to PC's. Sure, in theory the NPC's went through the same danger, but in practice, I suspect you won't have your PC's encounter an opposing group that would have been a real challenge if their mage hadn't died learning a new spell last week.

 

"Well, this campaign would have been a lot more challenging but, fortunately for your Fellowship, Sauron failed his save when he tried to learn a new spell yesterday, so he's now dead. Lucky for you guys, since he was a real bad-***. Anyway, with Sauron not round, you guys pretty much have a clear path to Mount Doom. You can just climb it and lob the ring in. So, who's in for pizza?"

[Midas]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

LOL

 

Anyway, here's a couple of ideas to consider.

 

"Painful" have the spell caster lose say a point of body: Then to balance it out, give the player a two point rebate with the spell cost.

 

If you have metagamers who will simply take the two point rebate and buy a point of body with it, lower the NCM by one for each spell learned. (No, I don't know how to work that in Hero terms -1/4 generic limitation?). Then the first 10 or so spells are "free" if the player wants to spend his rebate, but the 11th on is gonna cost four points to bring the body back.

 

Also, I don't have a problem with spending money as well as cp on a spell. You don't think your instructor is working for free, and you can't exactly give him your cp's can you? I think of money as a kind of naked VPP with the ind limitation. Consider, you trade in your last haul on equipment, why can't you send some of it to the sages guild instead of the smithy?

 

Midas

[prestidigitator]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

: Nope. You can't Transform yourself.

Hmm. Nor is there a construct other than maybe a VPP that lets your redefine your powers in a flexible manner. With Multiform you pay points for fixed alternate forms. With Shapeshift you cannot alter your powers.

 

Besides, what you're really doing in this case is defining a system-level construct for constraining a meta-system-level issue: spending Experience Points. We could really do that any way we liked. There is nothing established in the system for it (by definition). I think using Transform to do this works pretty well (in fact I have done magical item creation as a Transform on self, defined as adding some additional powers through foci). It's nice and simple, and has a built in cumulative method by which you can partially figure out the amount of time it takes. Besides, you buy one power that can then apply to any number of character growths.

 

I suppose another way would be to define a VPP with Limitations on its Control indicating how long it takes to switch the pool and what kind of powers can be built, then only allow the character to buy the power outside the VPP once the pool has been assigned. Again you need buy only one thing to indicate how the character can shift over time.

 

:shrug: As you will.

[Markdoc]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

The simplest way to deal with this (and the best, I'm thinking) is roleplay. If wizards don't like giving out new spells and it's costly to learn them, that's a pretty solid disincentive.

 

But if you have to have a mechanism, I'd adapt the old AD&D and Runequest mechanism.

 

Require every magic-user to have a skill "Learn magic" and to learn a new spell, they have to successfully roll it. It is, of course, affected by active points in the spell (so spells with more active points are harder to learn) and you only get to roll once per session (or once per month or per week, or whatever you decide fits best).

 

Depending on how punitive you want to be, you could either:

a) decide that a failed roll means the XP for the spell is lost (in which case, all spells should get the independant limitation to explain the XP loss and make up for this limitation). You probably won't get many mages with this system. Or:

You keep the XP but can't apply it to anything else for some time. You can of course keep trying to learn the spell, or after a while use it for another spell, or other things. This won't stop people playing mages, but there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth when they fail their rolls. It has the side effect that smart players will take extra time and try to get ideal settings and equipment bonuses to ensure they can learn their spells, which is at least in genre.

 

cheers, Mark

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

: Nope. You can't Transform yourself.

 

I'm afraid I must have missed that one. I just scanned pages 237-241 5ER and didn't see this. Where is this mentioned?

[tgrandjean]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

....'Course if you wanted painful to the player you could always go with spell costs X real points. That'll be X blows to the head.

If you're looking for an excuse to drink you could always substitute cost for shots.

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

I'm afraid I must have missed that one. I just scanned pages 237-241 5ER and didn't see this. Where is this mentioned?

 

The real rulebook (not v5.5) p.153 in Transform And Other Powers "Characters cannot use Transform on themselves"

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Well, thanks for what help you all could give. It'll be the Multiform method.

 

I just wish I could understand what many of you found hard to understand about "In my group if it ain't written up players will object LOUD."

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

The real rulebook (not v5.5 ) p.153 in Transform And Other Powers "Characters cannot use Transform on themselves"

 

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

[Kortay Mirlor]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....

 

You think I'm lying?

 

Look it up yourself, please, before making such accusations.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

You think I'm lying?

 

Look it up yourself, smart-mouth!

 

I think Cos may have been referring to the slight resistance to change implicit in the tone of your post, rather than to its technical content.

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

You think I'm lying?

 

Look it up yourself, smart-mouth!

 

I have no doubts that page 153 of a book contains the phrase you quote. I call into question the identity of this wondrous tome of lore and your perception of it as the only real rulebook.

 

I asked for assistance locating the rule you mentioned, stating where I had already looked, in the hopes that you'd simply reply with a page number and the title of your reference source. If you had, not only would I have thanked you for the information, I would have been better informed as to which version of what ruleset you were using and thus been better equipped to respond to your other posts in a helpful manner. Instead, not only do you omit the title, but you also insultingly cast doubts upon the validity of my source material.

 

Now I don't really care if you're using 4th Ed Champions, 3rd Ed AD&D, SJ's Gurps, or Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Mechanics as your real rulebook. It doesn't matter. We're here to discuss a game, and in the process of sharing our ideas we learn from each other. If you really want to participate you should learn to respect the opinions of others, especially if you disagree with those opinions.

 

Respond as you will. After reading some of your other posts, especially your responses to criticism, I fear you may be on your way to becoming a forum troll. I hope you instead grow up just a teensy, tiny bit (we are gamers after all) and learn to respect others.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Respond as you will. After reading some of your other posts' date=' especially your responses to criticism, I fear you may be on your way to becoming a forum troll. I hope you instead grow up just a teensy, tiny bit (we are gamers after all) and learn to respect others.[/quote']

 

To add to this, KM, there seems to be a steady decline in posts to your threads as time goes on. Your responses to other posters' attempts to provide you with some assistance (a desire for advice and assistance IS why you posted, isn't it?) may well be motivating some of the more knowledgeable and experienced Fantasy Hero gamers not to read or respond to your threads.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

To add to this' date=' KM, there seems to be a steady decline in posts to your threads as time goes on. Your responses to other posters' attempts to provide you with some assistance (a desire for advice and assistance IS why you posted, isn't it?) may well be motivating some of the more knowledgeable and experienced Fantasy Hero gamers not to read or respond to your threads.[/quote']

Yeah. :shrug: I gave my feedback. If it wasn't appreciated, that's fine. I don't see any need to go on, "discussing," though. Heh.

I fear...troll. I hope you instead grow up....

Not sure we have to resort to that kind of talk though. Worded a little bit more tactfully, it wouldn't tend to throw people into the defensive quite so easily.

[McCoy]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

The real rulebook (not v5.5 ) p.153 in Transform And Other Powers "Characters cannot use Transform on themselves"

No matter how undiplpmatically he may have stated it, he's right.

 

FREd, p.153.

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

FREd' date=' p.153.[/quote']

 

Thanks for the clarification. But I still seem to be a little confused. Does FREd = 5E or the old Champions Hardcover?

[LoresLost]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

Thanks for the clarification. But I still seem to be a little confused. Does FREd = 5E or the old Champions Hardcover?

 

The 'Small' 5e book (5th edition 1st edition (initial print runs) ) is called FREd by the board members. 5 RE is what most call the present printing of the 5 edition ( 5 ed 2nd edition ?? ). Those who refernence the 4th ed Champions hard cover call it the BBB (the Big Blue Book).

Am I confused yet

 

EDIT:

So this is the break down as I understand it

FREd = 5e (1st edition or unrevised version)

5re = 5e (2nd edition or revised version)

BBB = 4e Champions Hardback all in one edition.

/EDIT

[Gawain]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

The 'Small' 5e book (5th edition 1st edition (initial print runs) ) is called FREd by the board members. 5 RE is what most call the present printing of the 5 edition ( 5 ed 2nd edition ?? ). Those who refernence the 4th ed Champions hard cover call it the BBB (the Big Blue Book).

Am I confused yet

 

EDIT:

So this is the break down as I understand it

FREd = 5e (1st edition or unrevised version)

5re = 5e (2nd edition or revised version)

BBB = 4e Champions Hardback all in one edition.

/EDIT

 

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

[Cosmosemeritus]

Re: Magic System Question #1

 

The 'Small' 5e book (5th edition 1st edition (initial print runs) ) is called FREd by the board members. 5 RE is what most call the present printing of the 5 edition ( 5 ed 2nd edition ?? ). Those who refernence the 4th ed Champions hard cover call it the BBB (the Big Blue Book).

Am I confused yet

 

EDIT:

So this is the break down as I understand it

FREd = 5e (1st edition or unrevised version)

5re = 5e (2nd edition or revised version)

BBB = 4e Champions Hardback all in one edition.

/EDIT

 

Thanks much puzzle solved