Another Clarification: Narrative meaning of combat Phase.

[Catseye]

So, it was established in a previous thread that a "Phase" in terms of time is instantaneous or nearly so. Which is to say that a players' actions all occur in a part of one segment, that segment being their phase.

 

WHich brings up my narrative question. What is being modeled here? Or more directly to the point-- what is a speed 3 character doing on segments 5,6, and 7? Standing still and pickign his nose?

 

Slightly confused,

 

Catseye

[Dreadnought]

Re: Another Clarification: Narrative meaning of combat Phase.

 

My impression is that in those segments, the character is recovering from his action in segment 4. Say a brick with speed 3 swings at a speedster in segment 4, the brick misses, and takes a few seconds to recover his balance and return to his "ready position".

[stmichaeldet]

Re: Another Clarification: Narrative meaning of combat Phase.

 

I'd take pretty much the opposite tack. The way I see it, for purposes of gameplay, a character's actions all occur in the segment their phase begins, but that's just a rules convention to allow for clear interpretation of various actions. But in a narrative sense, each characters actions should be interpreted as flowing naturally from one to the next.

 

So, nothing is particularly being "modeled" by the speed chart, unless you want to interpret characters in combat bursting into one-second frenzies of activity followed by several seconds of immobility.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Another Clarification: Narrative meaning of combat Phase.

 

While Dreadnought's answer is I think technically correct, for narrative purposes I have always preferred to regard a Phase as a single panel of a comic book rather than as a discreet element of time measurable with a stopwatch. That way things can happen around or even to characters at times (Segments) that are not one of their Phases. I know the game system says a Segment equals 1 second, but as far as I'm concerned that's strictly useful for bookkeeping purposes and has no bearing on storytelling.

[Checkmate]

Re: Another Clarification: Narrative meaning of combat Phase.

 

Okay I haven't read the other thread so am unsure of what went on, but a Phase/Segment is 1 second, a turn is 12 seconds.

 

Now back to your question: Let's say Bruce Lee (Spd 6) and Slow Joe (Spd 3) are in a fight.

Phase 12: Bruce having the higher DEX goes first. He declares a block. For that whole second of Phase 12 Bruce and Joe are dancing around Bruce, being faster is looking for Joe's first attack. Joe decides to take a swing a Bruce who successfully blocks it.

 

Phase 1: Joe retracts his are, Bruce recovers from his block.

Phase 2: Bruce, seeing that Joe still hasn't recovered and gotten back in fighting stance, decides to kick Joe in the guts, which he does

Phase 3: Bruce recovers from his kick, Joe recovers from getting kicked

Phase 4: Bruce, still being the quicker of the two recovers first again, and launches a punch to Joe's face, it hits, but Joe is getting back into the fight and uses the force of Bruce's punch to spin around and throw a back hand punch at Bruce, which connects.

Phase 5: Joe's attack was off balanced and wobbely, Joe recovers and tries to get his hands up. Bruce gives Joe his evil "Okay gonna be like that huh?" smile, runs his thumb along his nose and starts bouncing on his feet again.

Phase 6: Bruce, now angry at Joe, does a jumping spin kick, that Joe narrowly avoids.

Phase 7: Bruce uses the momentum of the spin kick to set up his next attack, and croutches, still spinning executing...

Phase 8: a Leg sweep, that takes Joe down. Joe does a kip up, and is sick of getting wailed on so goes defensive ready to block Bruce's next attack

Phase 9: Bruce stands after his sweep, Joe finishes getting into his defensive stance.

Phase 10: Bruce tries a quick jab to Joe's nose, but Joe blocks the attack.

Phase 11: Joe recovers from the block quicker than Bruce because the block threw Bruce off balance, but the time Bruce recovers, it's:

Phase 12: Joe....

 

How's that work? Now obvioulsy that's just one example. Remember just because it's not someone's phase doesn't mean they're just standing there. They still have their full DCV, meaning the bobbing and weaving, they're looking for openings etc.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Another Clarification: Narrative meaning of combat Phase.

 

Basically, I think along Checkmate's lines.

 

Tangentially, you could think of the preceeding segments as being used to accomplish whatever was taking place. For instance, if a SPD 3 mook takes a swing on 4, then on Segments 1, 2, and 3 he is doing everything from setting up to swinging, and on 4 the fist either impacts or misses.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Another Clarification: Narrative meaning of combat Phase.

 

Checkmate's got it pat, at least as I've always interpreted it.

 

Essentially, the Speed chart isn't really modelling the action of any character; it is modelling that faster characters get more actions in the same length of time.

 

That is to say, a character who 'acts' on phase 6 and 12 doesn't wait around, then spring into action. He is 'in the middle' of his previous action-- planning, exectution, and recovery from-- until he starts his next action.

 

The confusion comes with the dice rolls. Obviously, the character isn't rolling dice; the player is. But the dice roll has to occur at a certain point, and the Speed Chart assigns that point.

 

Think of it more as the moment his action takes affect as opposed to the moment he gets up and acts.

 

(and it nicely prevents that 'right after I die I get one more attack' problem prevelant in early D&D)

[OzMike]

Re: Another Clarification: Narrative meaning of combat Phase.

 

To steal an idea from D20/D&D (I can't believe I said that):

 

I like the thought that those phases are where you take effective action. Sure, you might be doing a lot more other stuff, but when it comes down to it, a SPD 3 character will have 3 effective actions over the course of a turn. They might fire more often, but they really only have 3 real chances to hit.

 

We also played at one stage that a turn was effectively a minute, so that if PCs who weren't around when a combat started get told "You are five minutes away" that means 5 combat turns, not 25.

[keithcurtis]

Re: Another Clarification: Narrative meaning of combat Phase.

 

While Dreadnought's answer is I think technically correct' date=' for [i']narrative [/i]purposes I have always preferred to regard a Phase as a single panel of a comic book rather than as a discreet element of time measurable with a stopwatch. That way things can happen around or even to characters at times (Segments) that are not one of their Phases. I know the game system says a Segment equals 1 second, but as far as I'm concerned that's strictly useful for bookkeeping purposes and has no bearing on storytelling.

 

Yes!

I would expand that to other genres, though. Not just a comic book panel, but a discrete narrated action. When I run combat for the Savage Earth online campaign, I run several segments worth, perhaps even up to a turn, based on stated intentions and tactics. Then I take the log of the phases and re-write it into prose. It works very well. Sometimes it even allows you to inject some more reason into the combat. Character A fumbles. Character B misses. You can narrate this as Character A trips and bumps Character B's arm just as he was firing. I sometimes change the order of events slightly during the "prosification", for narrative or dramatic purposes, but never in any way that would invalidate the actual rolled combat.

 

Keith "I have dibs on 'prosification' " Curtis

[ghost-angel]

Re: Another Clarification: Narrative meaning of combat Phase.

 

Everyone pretty much covered it. Since we're trying to model a dynamic situation in an orderly fashion for Gamer Purposes (so we don't go bats**t crazy trying to think in Combat Terms) when it's all said and done.

 

Usually when I go back and write up the gaming session I look at how long physically combat took including the segments no one actually acted on and narrate it across that time frame fluidly.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Another Clarification: Narrative meaning of combat Phase.

 

Yes!

I would expand that to other genres, though. Not just a comic book panel, but a discrete narrated action. When I run combat for the Savage Earth online campaign, I run several segments worth, perhaps even up to a turn, based on stated intentions and tactics. Then I take the log of the phases and re-write it into prose. It works very well. Sometimes it even allows you to inject some more reason into the combat. Character A fumbles. Character B misses. You can narrate this as Character A trips and bumps Character B's arm just as he was firing. I sometimes change the order of events slightly during the "prosification", for narrative or dramatic purposes, but never in any way that would invalidate the actual rolled combat.

Well, obviously "discrete narrated action" works as well as "discrete illustrated action."

 

I find, somewhat to my embarrassment, that I used "discreet" where I meant "discrete" in my original post. Damn homonyms!

[Checkmate]

Re: Another Clarification: Narrative meaning of combat Phase.

 

Damn homonyms!

 

Hey What'd you call me??

[David Johnston]

Re: Another Clarification: Narrative meaning of combat Phase.

 

Well, obviously "discrete narrated action" works as well as "discrete illustrated action."

 

I find, somewhat to my embarrassment, that I used "discreet" where I meant "discrete" in my original post. Damn homonyms!

 

Don't worry. We'll all be discrete about it.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Another Clarification: Narrative meaning of combat Phase.

 

Don't worry. We'll all be discrete about it.

Er, that would be "discreet."

 

discrete

· adj. individually separate and distinct.

– DERIVATIVES discretely adv. discreteness n.

– ORIGIN ME: from L. discretus ‘separate’; cf. discreet.

 

discreet

· adj. (discreeter, discreetest)

1 careful and prudent in one’s speech or actions, especially so as to avoid giving offence or attracting attention.

2 unobtrusive.

– DERIVATIVES discreetly adv. discreetness n.

– ORIGIN ME: from OFr. discret, from L. discretus ‘separate’, past part. of discernere ‘discern’, the sense arising from late L. discretio (see discretion).

– USAGE The words discrete and discreet are often confused. Discrete means ‘separate’ (a discrete unit), while discreet means ‘careful and prudent’. Around 10 per cent of citations in the British National Corpus for discrete are misspellings for discreet.

 

 

At least I'm not alone.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Another Clarification: Narrative meaning of combat Phase.

 

So, it was established in a previous thread that a "Phase" in terms of time is instantaneous or nearly so. Which is to say that a players' actions all occur in a part of one segment, that segment being their phase.

 

WHich brings up my narrative question. What is being modeled here? Or more directly to the point-- what is a speed 3 character doing on segments 5,6, and 7? Standing still and pickign his nose?

 

Slightly confused,

 

Catseye

 

This seems pretty well answered above, which is to say everyone has their own slightly different way of interpreting it. This is a good thing. The Hero System game mechanics are indented to be interpreted several different ways; so long as the mechanic does what you need it to it doesn't matter what it looks like.

 

That said, I'll go ahead and describe my own slightly different intrepritation of what a Phase is:

 

Mechanically, I think we're all agreed on what a Phase is and what happens during it. Character A has DEX 26 and SPD 6. Character B has DEX 20 and SPD 4 and character C has DEX 18 and SPD 3. On Segment 8, A begins his Phase at DEX 26 and his actions are resolved by DEX 18, when C begins his Phase. The actions C performs during his Phase are resolved by the time B begins his Phase on DEX 20 in Segment 9, whose actions are resolved by the time A begines a new Phase in Segment 10. This assums no characters decide to hold their Phase to act later. What this generally means is that A can move half his movement and perform an attack in that short time between his DEX count and C's DEX count during a single Segment.

 

The key word I use above is "resolve". Naratively, the character may be spending time "between" Phases preparing for their next action, recovering from their previous action or both. The characters are really taking the entire time of each Phase, from their DEX count in the Segment the Phase begins all they way to the very begining of their next Phase. The actions they perform are resolved ealier than that (i.e. immediately) to speed up and simplify game play.

[David Johnston]

Re: Another Clarification: Narrative meaning of combat Phase.

 

Er, that would be "discreet."

 

 

Nobody gets my jokes.