Commonality of Energy Types?

[Hierax]

What are the different kinds of Energy/Elemental Attacks and Defences, how would you group them, and what % of Energy Attacks would you say each is (and consequently how much of a limitation for a defence only against that kind of attack)?

 

Energy:

Thermal (T)

:

• Heat/Fire
  
  
• Cold/Ice

Chemical (C

[need a different abbreviation?]

)

:

• Acid
  
  
• ...

Elemental/Electro-Magnetic (E)

:

• Electricity/Lightning
  
  
• Sonic
  
  
• Light
  
  
• Radiation
  
  
• Gravity
  
  
• Magnetic
  
  
• Microwave
  
  
• X-Ray
  
  
• Gamma Ray
  
  
• Particle: Photon, Neutron, Electron
  
  
• Laser
  
  
• Blaster
  
  
• Plasma

I'm trying to make up a list but Energy is a lot more complicated than Physical/Force/Kinetic Attacks and Defences:

 

Physical/Force:

• Cutting/Chopping/Slashing/Hacking/... ©:
  ~33% (-2 = 1/3 cost)

• Puncturing/Impaling/Stabbing/Thrusting/... (P):
  ~33% (-2 = 1/3 cost)

• Bashing/Bludgeoning/Smashing/Crushing/... (:
  ~34% (-2 = 1/3 cost)

Would you do this list any differently for different Genres (Fantasy, Sci-Fi, Super-Hero, Action-Hero)? FWIW, I'm primarily interested in Fantasy and secondarly in Sci-Fi, less so in Super-Hero)

 

Thanks in advance!

[gojira]

Re: Types of Engery? Commonality of

 

Sure! Let's see what the old brain can cook up...

 

First, I think Energy/Elemental is one type of SFX. So to completely think outside the box, one must also consider all types of SFX. More later...

 

OK, Elemental to me means classical Greek elements: Earth, Air, Fire, Water and Spirit/Void. Elemental can also mean Chinese elements, which are Wood, Water, Fire, Earth and Metal.

 

Thermal

Heat: warmth, cooking, protection

Fire: Fire, Elemental Fire, Firestorm, Lava, Greek Fire, Napatha, Buring Oil, Burning Spirits/Ethers (Alchemy).

Plasma

 

Cold: Chill, Shade, Nightime

Ice: Freezing, Hail, Ice, Snow, Storms and Weather.

Deep water (20,000 Leagues...)

Outer Space

Absolute Zero

 

Chemical:

Greek Fire, Napatha, Buring Oil, Burning Spirits/Ethers

Alchemy

Acid

Base

Poison, Eye Irratiants, Skin Irratants, Slowing/Numbing/Blinding, Deadly Poisons

Toxins, Natural Toxins, Man Made Toxins

Poop, sewer sludge

 

Forces of Phyics

Strong Nuclear Force

Weak Nuclear Force

Electric Force

Magnetic Force

Gravity

 

Air

Wind, Wind Push or Wind Blast

Storms

Blinding / Hindering wind and storms

Weather control

Lighting

Sonic, Hearing

 

Metal

Magentism

Crafting & Metalworking

Mining, Ores, Dowsing

 

Earth

Tunneling, Moving

Shaping Earth

 

Wood

Plant Control

Vines, Tangling,

Insect Control (insects are closely associated with plants)

Spring, Agriculture, Food, Life force

 

Water

Rain, Storms, Waves

Water transport (ships)

 

Electro-Magnetic Spectrum

Infra-Red

Ultra-Violet

X-Rays

Gamma Rays

Micro-Waves

Lasers

Detection, Seeing, Sight, Stars, Intersteller, Waves

 

Particles

Neutrons, Protons, Electron

Alpha & Beta Particles

Nuclear Explosions, EMP,

Energy, Industry, Empire

 

Spirit/Void

Spirits, Sprites, Aminism

Void, Death, Necromancy, Ancestor Worship

Chi, Martial Arts, Wuxia, Akido

 

 

Whew! I'm running out of steam here. Other thoughts: You might also consider some more traditional SFXs. Mental power might be a type of energy. Magic might be a seperate SFX. Different from, say, Alchemy, or Chi wuxia style powers, even if all of them are making a Fire power, for example.

 

Okay I think I'm done for now!

[Dust Raven]

Re: Types of Engery? Commonality of

 

Instead of grouping each SFX into a specific SFX category, I usually have a list of SFX with the more generic type of SFX listed after, and any given item may fit into more than one category. For example:

 

Lasers [light/radiation]

Plasma [heat/chemical]

Sonic [sound/vibration]

 

The idea is that when listing a Limitation, Susceptibility or Vulnerability (or the SFX that affects a Desolid character), if the SFX isn't listed specifically, but the more general description (such as light or radiation for lasers) is, that SFX counts.

[David Johnston]

Re: Types of Engery? Commonality of

 

If you were going to define energy like you defined physical then you'd be left with two options:

 

Burns

Shocks

[Psylint]

Re: Types of Engery? Commonality of

 

I go about it a different way. A player says, "I want to take a vulnerability" I look at his character, try to think of something that makes sense, then look at my stock of antagonists and see how many folks have that effect and how nasty it is.

[Dust Raven]

Re: Types of Engery? Commonality of

 

I go about it a different way. A player says' date=' "I want to take a vulnerability" I look at his character, try to think of something that makes sense, then look at my stock of antagonists and see how many folks have that effect and how nasty it is.[/quote']

 

Not bad. I suppose having a Vulnerability to syncro-cannons would be worth a fair amount more if the minimum DC of one is more than the total DEF of the character, even though they're uncommon.

[JackValhalla]

Re: Commonality of Energy Types?

 

The only reason I've ever tried to calculate the different energy forms is for applying Vulnerabilities and Susceptibilities, or certain Limited defenses.

As a rule, if I can think of three or four published characters that have a particular special effect off the top of my head, I rule it to be common. For example, for fire I think of Firewing, Burnout, Feuermacher, Dark Seraph, and Talisman. It sounds like that could come up a lot, common. Sonics, I can think of Howler, Ultrasonique, Warcry... and that's it. I might think uncommon for sonics, unless the player takes a hunted from one of those characters. Then I'll give them credit for common. For ice-type powers, I have to say uncommon, it just doesn't come up that often. There's Icicle, and I think Stormfront has a couple of cold powers.

[Silbeg]

Re: Commonality of Energy Types?

 

Ok, so I am lazy, but I just use the chart in the Champions book... at least that way I can get some common reference. Now, if there were a SFX that I tended to use a lot more than would seem normal for a CU game, then I might adjust.

 

Example, Sonics are listed as Uncommon. If a common "tech" weapon was Sonic Screech Grenades, something that could be bought "off the shelf", I would adjust this to Common or Very Common, depending.

[GreyGuardian]

Re: Commonality of Energy Types?

 

There's a chart in Champions? what page?

 

I had to tell a player to choose what type of radiation he meant since sonic, laser, UV, x-ray, magnetic, etc. are all "radiation" i.e. energy transmitted through space. He went with Ionizing radiation which covers what most people mean when they say radiation (x, gamma, beta, neutron, and alpha).

[Silbeg]

Re: Commonality of Energy Types?

 

There's a chart in Champions?

 

page 159

 

That would, of course, be the 5E version (first printing, in case it matters).

[wylodmayer]

Re: Commonality of Energy Types?

 

I'd say it'd have to be totally about the setting you're playing in. I mean, in a Marvel set superhero game, Fire attacks are easily common; you've got TONS of fire wielders. Likewise, in a DC universe game, there are several cold wielders (Mr. Freeze, Killer Frost, Captain Cold, Icicle (all three) and Coldsnap, and possibly Weather Wizard if you care to count him) I can think of off hand, as opposed to only two I can immediately place - Iceman and Blizzard - from Marvel. And all of the cold wielders I can think of from DC are bad guys, so I would definitely give a character "Common" on his vulnerability in DC, whereas I doubt I would in Marvel.

 

This became an interesting bit in one game I ran. A player wanted to make a character who had a vulnerability to sonic attacks. It totally fit with his backstory and powers, and it was in no way point mooching, but I hadn't established ANY villains (and only one hero) who had sonic attacks. He was slightly disappointed to learn that the energy category he had chosen was no where near as common as the book suggested, and that he was going to have to scramble to come up with another Disad to make his points. I felt for the guy, so I came up with three villains with sonic powers, just so he could "make weight" so to speak. Funny bit is, it wound up bringing some great roleplay to the game. I came up with an intricate backstory as to WHY these guys all had sonic powers (with some different capabilities, but still), and it turned into a real thing for the PC in question; they became a recurring set of enemies that eventually I was able to work into a larger part of the plot - some deal about a bad guy who manufactures other supervillains.

 

So, you know, lemons and lemonade and whatnot.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Commonality of Energy Types?

 

What are we asking about? It depends on the SFX of your world. For example, in a d20 setting, you have to contend with:

 

Heat, Cold, Acid, Electric, Holy, Unholy. In the Arena/Elder Scrolls setting, it's only Heat/Cold/Lightning. If we're doing Final Fantasy, the elements become a little more extensive:

 

Heat, Cold, Lightning, Poison, Holy/Light, Unholy/Dark, Earth, Water (not the same as Cold), Air (not the same as Lightning).

 

I'm sorry, the vicodin is confusing me. Does that help? Not help?

[Hierax]

Re: Commonality of Energy Types?

 

Specifically I'm looking at things that are Attacks vs. ED/rED for Fantasy and (to a lesser degree) Science-Fiction.

 

E.G., a straight-up 3E/d20 conversion would be Fire, Cold, Lightning, Acid, Sonic. Rolemaster (particularly with the Elemental Companion) would be more detailed.

 

Attacks that would be vs. PD/rPD aren't an "energy type" for purposes of this discussion even if they are elemental/energy -- things like Ice, Water, Kinetic/Force, Air, etc...

 

The purpose is to come up with Armors/Protection Spells (or sci-fi counter energy fields) vs. specific types of these energy/elemental attacks.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Commonality of Energy Types?

 

Well, bearing in mind a moment that "RKA" can cover anything, the discussion can get pretty complicated. Maybe I don't quite get it yet.

 

What I'm hearing is you asking: "How do I build defenses against specific energy attack types?"

 

To which I would normally reply: "As a defensive flavor of choice, up to campaign maxima, with the appropriate limitation." But I get the feeling that you're looking for something deeper than the obvious answer.

 

For example, Sonic could be done as either rPD or rED, but is mostly likely built as AVLD vs. Sound Flash Defense, which is what makes it so freaking nasty in the first place. Any of the more extreme versions of these powers could be done that way, or as NND appropriate immunity (i.e., a plasma burst can be done as rED, or as NND Immunity to Heat, and so on).

 

Can you be more precise? By the same token I can create a SFX in which "Air" is an energy based attack simply by declaring it to be so - i.e., it cuts so swiftly that it slices through normal armor like tissue paper.

[Hierax]

Re: Commonality of Energy Types?

 

NND, AVLD, etc. aren't a concern here. just regular old ED and rED.

 

I'm building a comprehensive list (well two actually, one Fantasy one Sci-Fi) of attack types and want to have each of them slotted/categorized and given a limitation value for defense purposes (e.g., Armor, Damage Resistance, Force Field, etc.) and I want to base that limitation value on a rough percentage% of what proportion of the types of attacks that affect that kind of defense (e.g., ED/rED).

 

For PD/rPD it was easy:

Physical/Force:

• Cutting/Chopping/Slashing/Hacking/...
  ©
  :
  
  
  ~33% (-2 = 1/3 cost)

• Puncturing/Impaling/Stabbing/Thrusting/...
  (P)
  :
  
  
  ~33% (-2 = 1/3 cost)

• Bashing/Bludgeoning/Smashing/Crushing/...
  (
  
  :
  
  
  ~34% (-2 = 1/3 cost)

These can be further divided by the thing doing the attack: Cutting-Swords, Cutting-Axes, Bashing-Clubs, Bashing-Unarmed, Bashing-Falling, etc.

 

For ED/rED it's more complicated and that's what I'm looking for some other perspectives on so I can see if I'm missing anything before I finalize the values for a much more detailed system than is usually used.

e.g., Chainmaile (or Powered Armour) would provide different defence vs. Thermal/Heat/Cold/Fire, than it would vs. Electrical/Lightning, than it would vs. Acid/Chemical, etc.

It's the "etc." that I'm trying to fill in.

 

I hope that that helps to clarify...

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Commonality of Energy Types?

 

To be honest, you're the first person I've seen try to categorize it. I would think that the defenses would break down something like this:

 

- Extreme Temperatures (Heat/Cold)

- Proper Insulation (Lightning)

- Corrosives (Acids, et al)

 

For example, you could build a HAZMAT suit that has only 2 rPD vs. Bludgeon, but is insultated, corrosive shielded and so on. So the big questions I think you're asking (and this is well outside of my mental box) are whether there should be specific cuts/resistances for those things.

[Hierax]

Re: Commonality of Energy Types?

 

Yeah, a HAZMAT suit is a great example.

 

I realize that I'm trying something a bit new to most HERO people, other games have done similar things - HARN, MYTHUS, Rolemaster, Riddle of Steel, etc. The HERO System is a better toolkit, I'm just trying to figure out how to best put the pieces together on this.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Commonality of Energy Types?

 

Well, hang on. Let me try and break this down. You're right, the basics are Bludgeon, Pierce & Slash for physical damage. SHADOWRUN did a great job in using Impact (I) and Ballistic ( ratings for their armor; so a combat jacket could have 4 I/2 B - even though ballistics are 'piercing' Shadowrun treated them differently - likely due to the astounding force behind a bullet.

 

So you can (in HERO, with minimal effort) build really comlicated armors. I think the best way to break it out just based on my current understanding of what you're looking for is:

 

- Temperature Extremes (Cold, Heat, additional rED as appropriate; I don't think you'd want both in one armor, but it could be done)

- Lightning (making the target less grounded?)

- Sonics (vibration reinforced with 'loose molecules' that can afford to be shaken without losing stability, although this might make for less rPD)

- Magical Force (you said fantasy) which would require equally magical reinforcement. It depends on how you measure purely magical force

- Gravitics and Gravity Manipulation would require anti-grav shielding as well, which is something else you might want to consider - I'd forgotten that "Gravity" is a legal force in Final Fantasy.